LDS Joseph Smith and the Astronomers

[Dale]

That doesn't change the fact that mainstream Christianity believe that Jesus is God and the Bible teaches that Jesus had a physical body, after His death.




Oh, my giddy aunt. I love this argument. Let me comment on it for about the twentieth time on this forum.

The belief that mainstream Christianity applies to this verse is flawed. These two halves of verse 24 are treated differently. That's not the way language works.

"God is spirit . . ."

Mainstream Christianity applies a literal meaning to the first half of the verse. They claim that the verse means that God does not have a physical body. If that were true, then the second half of the verse would have to support that belief.

". . . and His worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."

Taken in a literal sense, that means worshipers must be spirits. They cannot have bodies. Which further means, no mortal can worship God. That idea is contrary to what the rest of the Bible teaches and is just plain silly.

Anyone seeking the truth, please think on this for a moment. I suspect that you know how language works. A single sentence is going to remain consistent in how it represents a topic. Either the words are meant to be taken literally or they are meant to be taken figuratively. That is done to prevent confusion. If readers could not compare the two halves of a statement to determine what was literal and what was figurative, then we would never be able to express our thoughts to one another with any degree of accuracy. Language has rules and this is one of them.

Now, the challenge for truth seekers. Look at verse 24. Look at it once, literally. Then look at it once figuratively. What do you think it means. If you're not sure, ask God.

Ran77: << "God is spirit . . ."
Mainstream Christianity applies a literal meaning to the first half of the verse. They claim that the verse means that God does not have a physical body. If that were true, then the second half of the verse would have to support that belief.
". . . and His worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."

Taken in a literal sense, that means worshipers must be spirits. They cannot have bodies. Which further means, no mortal can worship God. That idea is contrary to what the rest of the Bible teaches and is just plain silly. >>



From the commentary of John Gill, famous historical commentator on the Bible, on John 4:24:

"God is a spirit, and not a body, or a corporeal substance: the nature and essence of God is like a spirit, simple and uncompounded, not made up of parts; nor is it divisible; nor does it admit of any change and alteration. God, as a spirit, is immaterial, immortal, invisible, and an intelligent, willing, and active being; but differs from other spirits, in that he is not created, but an immense and infinite spirit, and an eternal one, which has neither beginning nor end: he is therefore a spirit by way of eminency, as well as effectively, he being the author and former of all spirits ..."



and

"and they that worship him;
worship is due to him on account of his nature and perfections, both internal and external; with both the bodies and souls of men; and both private and public; in the closet, in the family, and in the church of God; as prayer, praise, attendance on the word and ordinances:

must worship him in spirit and in truth;
in the true and spiritual manner before described, which is suitable to his nature, and agreeably to his will."

Gill says that God is a spirit but also infinite and eternal, eminent over all other spirits, and the creator of all other spirits.

Our bodies are adapted to the environment we live in. God is a spirit superior to all environments.

To "worship him in spirit" doesn't mean that we have to be disembodied spirits to worship. Instead, it means that you don't just take your body to church while your soul snoozes. To worship in spirit means that you don't just go to church because the neighbors think you should or because your family thinks you should. The same goes for prayer, even in your own home. You don't pray just because others think you should but because you believe that God receives your prayers.


Link
John 4:24 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse

 

[Dale]

Luke 24: 39

Behold my hands and feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have.

(The Bible teaches that too.)




Luke 24: 42-43

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

(The Bible teaches that too.)




There is evidence of this in the Bible, but it does not make as clear a statement as the previous two examples.




As do the same stars and planets that are part of mainstream Christianity.




I doubt I'm any more concerned about it than you are. You live in the same universe as me. Anything that provides a solution to this supposed concern from mainstream Christianity would be equally true for us.

What's going to happen to you when this universe expires? How will that effect God? I'm curious about your thoughts on this matter.

Then the same explanation should work for us. Anything that bails mainstream Christianity out of the supposed problem caused by the death of the universe will apply to us as well.




Okay. And we can claim the same thing.

Mainstream Christianity doesn't need to be "bailed out" of the expiration of the physical universe. Christians have never believed that their God has a physical body or that He lives in the physical universe. Christians believe that their God was alive and well as an infinite spirit before the universe was created and He can continue in the same fashion if He so chooses.

If you will bear with me a minute, Mormonism reminds me of one of the philosophers I am familiar with. Alfred North Whitehead (1860-1946) was British, although he lived in the US in later life. Originally an eminent mathematician, he became a philosopher. He believed in a God of sorts but He was not a Christian and definitely did not believe in an afterlife.

In line with what most scientists believed in his lifetime, Whitehead saw the physical universe as finite. He realized that stars would eventually burn out and that in the end, there would be no hydrogen left to form new stars. He knew that the second law of thermodynamics, entropy, meant that the universe had to run down and become a cold, dead place.

Whitehead viewed God as the spirit of the universe, or the controlling intelligence of the physical universe. In his view, God is certainly much greater and longer lived than we are, but with the death of the physical universe, this "God" would die as well.

From my point of view, Whitehead's "God" is pathetic. His "God" is limited by the physical universe, unlike the Christian God, who existed before time was created. While Whitehead's version of God is limited, and certainly not eternal, he would still be far greater than the Mormon God. To Whitehead, there is only one God for the physical universe. To Joseph Smith, there are many, all of them limited by physical reality.

That is the reason I started this thread. I find it amazing that Mormons put their faith in a "God" who cannot live forever and doesn't rule the whole universe. I don't know how they overlook everything in the Bible that points to a God greater than the universe, an eternal, all-powerful God.

 

[He is the way]

Ran77: << "God is spirit . . ."
Mainstream Christianity applies a literal meaning to the first half of the verse. They claim that the verse means that God does not have a physical body. If that were true, then the second half of the verse would have to support that belief.
". . . and His worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."

Taken in a literal sense, that means worshipers must be spirits. They cannot have bodies. Which further means, no mortal can worship God. That idea is contrary to what the rest of the Bible teaches and is just plain silly. >>



From the commentary of John Gill, famous historical commentator on the Bible, on John 4:24:

"God is a spirit, and not a body, or a corporeal substance: the nature and essence of God is like a spirit, simple and uncompounded, not made up of parts; nor is it divisible; nor does it admit of any change and alteration. God, as a spirit, is immaterial, immortal, invisible, and an intelligent, willing, and active being; but differs from other spirits, in that he is not created, but an immense and infinite spirit, and an eternal one, which has neither beginning nor end: he is therefore a spirit by way of eminency, as well as effectively, he being the author and former of all spirits ..."



and

"and they that worship him;
worship is due to him on account of his nature and perfections, both internal and external; with both the bodies and souls of men; and both private and public; in the closet, in the family, and in the church of God; as prayer, praise, attendance on the word and ordinances:

must worship him in spirit and in truth;
in the true and spiritual manner before described, which is suitable to his nature, and agreeably to his will."

Gill says that God is a spirit but also infinite and eternal, eminent over all other spirits, and the creator of all other spirits.

Our bodies are adapted to the environment we live in. God is a spirit superior to all environments.

To "worship him in spirit" doesn't mean that we have to be disembodied spirits to worship. Instead, it means that you don't just take your body to church while your soul snoozes. To worship in spirit means that you don't just go to church because the neighbors think you should or because your family thinks you should. The same goes for prayer, even in your own home. You don't pray just because others think you should but because you believe that God receives your prayers.


Link
John 4:24 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse

Are you saying that Jesus Christ does NOT have a physical body? Do you NOT believe in worshiping Jesus Christ?:

(New Testament | Luke 24:39)

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

(New Testament | Matthew 2:2)

2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

 

[He is the way]

Mainstream Christianity doesn't need to be "bailed out" of the expiration of the physical universe. Christians have never believed that their God has a physical body or that He lives in the physical universe. Christians believe that their God was alive and well as an infinite spirit before the universe was created and He can continue in the same fashion if He so chooses.

If you will bear with me a minute, Mormonism reminds me of one of the philosophers I am familiar with. Alfred North Whitehead (1860-1946) was British, although he lived in the US in later life. Originally an eminent mathematician, he became a philosopher. He believed in a God of sorts but He was not a Christian and definitely did not believe in an afterlife.

In line with what most scientists believed in his lifetime, Whitehead saw the physical universe as finite. He realized that stars would eventually burn out and that in the end, there would be no hydrogen left to form new stars. He knew that the second law of thermodynamics, entropy, meant that the universe had to run down and become a cold, dead place.

Whitehead viewed God as the spirit of the universe, or the controlling intelligence of the physical universe. In his view, God is certainly much greater and longer lived than we are, but with the death of the physical universe, this "God" would die as well.

From my point of view, Whitehead's "God" is pathetic. His "God" is limited by the physical universe, unlike the Christian God, who existed before time was created. While Whitehead's version of God is limited, and certainly not eternal, he would still be far greater than the Mormon God. To Whitehead, there is only one God for the physical universe. To Joseph Smith, there are many, all of them limited by physical reality.

That is the reason I started this thread. I find it amazing that Mormons put their faith in a "God" who cannot live forever and doesn't rule the whole universe. I don't know how they overlook everything in the Bible that points to a God greater than the universe, an eternal, all-powerful God.

God the Father has a spiritual body:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:42 - 44)

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

(New Testament | 1 John 3:1 - 2)

1 BEHOLD, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[Ran77]

From the commentary of John Gill, famous historical commentator on the Bible, on John 4:24:

I read the post, but am not including all of it for sake of brevity.

First off, what John Gill stated did not refute my point.

Secondly, John Gill is not a source of scripture. Therefore, anything he has to say on the topic is his opinion.

Third, if John Gill wants to show up and argue his points with me, then I will be happy to respond to his comments, but I am not going to debate the arguments of someone who is not on this forum.

 

[Ran77]

Mainstream Christianity doesn't need to be "bailed out" of the expiration of the physical universe. Christians have never believed that their God has a physical body or that He lives in the physical universe. Christians believe that their God was alive and well as an infinite spirit before the universe was created and He can continue in the same fashion if He so chooses.

Focusing on the use of one word does not change the fact that any explanation that mainstream Christianity might offer will be equally true for us.

That is the reason I started this thread. I find it amazing that Mormons put their faith in a "God" who cannot live forever and doesn't rule the whole universe. I don't know how they overlook everything in the Bible that points to a God greater than the universe, an eternal, all-powerful God.

Let me make a quick correction. What you find amazing that (what you incorrectly offer as the belief of members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) put their faith in . . .

I suggest you use our actual beliefs.

1. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe that God is eternal and will indeed live forever.

2. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe that God rules the whole universe.

Both are the exact opposite of what you claimed. Which means any arguments you want to offer will be about something you made up and not our actual beliefs.

 

[Dale]

Are you saying that Jesus Christ does NOT have a physical body? Do you NOT believe in worshiping Jesus Christ?:

(New Testament | Luke 24:39)

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

(New Testament | Matthew 2:2)

2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

"The Word became flesh" in John 1:14.

Jesus is pre-existent from eternity. He "became flesh" when He was born to Mary. For most of His existence He was a spirit who had not yet become flesh. He was a spirit when He helped create the world.

 

[Dale]

God the Father has a spiritual body:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:42 - 44)

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

(New Testament | 1 John 3:1 - 2)

1 BEHOLD, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

HeIsTheWay: "God the Father has a spiritual body."

You are confusing the issue. I Corinthians 15 is talking about Christians in the afterlife.

Paul says that Christians will have a spiritual body in the life to come but he makes no comment on God the Father having a body.

 

[He is the way]

HeIsTheWay: "God the Father has a spiritual body."

You are confusing the issue. I Corinthians 15 is talking about Christians in the afterlife.

Paul says that Christians will have a spiritual body in the life to come but he makes no comment on God the Father having a body.

How will we be like Him if He does NOT have a spiritual body like us?

 

[Peter1000]

While matter cannot be destroyed, or mass-energy cannot be destroyed, stars burn out and come to an end eventually.

I don't know what you were taught. When I was in the fifth or sixth grade we saw films that explained that the sun would use up its hydrogen and become a nova in five or six billion years.

"What does death mean, for the sun? It means our sun will run out of fuel in its interior. It’ll cease the internal thermonuclear reactions that enable stars to shine. It’ll swell into a red giant, whose outer layers will engulf Mercury and Venus and likely reach the Earth. Life on Earth will end."

and

"The immensely high pressures and temperatures in its interior will slacken. The sun will shrink down to become a dying ember of a star, known as a white dwarf, only a little larger than Earth."

The earth and sun can't continue forever as we know it.

Link
What will happen when our sun dies? | EarthSky.org

The key words in your post is "as we know it". We and our scientists know little or nothing compared to a God that is omniscience. So guess all you wish, you will find out when it is time for you to find out what God will do with his creations.

 

[Peter1000]

With what? Mormons believe God can't create something out of nothing, that matter always existed, and that God just "organized" it to create the universe. So where does he get the fuel to "refuel" a star? Is there a universal gas station somewhere??

God is omniscience. That means he knows everything there is to know about scientific things.
Do you really think that God cannot refuel a star, and why would you ask such a rediculous question of us, as how would God do that? You will have to ask God that question. As far as I know, JS was never given the answer to that question.

 

[Gifts From Above]

It is called faith.

The BOM is a fable.

 

[BigDaddy4]

God is omniscience. That means he knows everything there is to know about scientific things.
Do you really think that God cannot refuel a star, and why would you ask such a rediculous question of us, as how would God do that? You will have to ask God that question. As far as I know, JS was never given the answer to that question.

I'm not asking God that question. I'm asking the LDS person who stated that God would refuel a star. If you don't have a sensible response, then you can choose not to participate. Are you trying to say that JS said God would refuel a star, but did not give specifics on how that would happen? It was my understanding that this concept was HITW's opinion.

If you truly believe that God knows everything there is to know about scientific things, then wouldn't God also know that science tells us that eventually the sun will eventually run out of fuel, as @Dale has explained? It seems science and your version of God have differing opinions about our sun.

 

[He is the way]

I'm not asking God that question. I'm asking the LDS person who stated that God would refuel a star. If you don't have a sensible response, then you can choose not to participate. Are you trying to say that JS said God would refuel a star, but did not give specifics on how that would happen? It was my understanding that this concept was HITW's opinion.

If you truly believe that God knows everything there is to know about scientific things, then wouldn't God also know that science tells us that eventually the sun will eventually run out of fuel, as @Dale has explained? It seems science and your version of God have differing opinions about our sun.

Scientific theories are not always right. What does science say about turning water into wine? Science is not always wrong either.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Scientific theories are not always right. What does science say about turning water into wine? Science is not always wrong either.

Now you're trying to discredit science to make your religious beliefs seem valid?

 

[He is the way]

Now you're trying to discredit science to make your religious beliefs seem valid?

You did not answer the question.

 

[BigDaddy4]

You did not answer the question.

We're not talking about water into wine. If you have a point, make it. Otherwise, please explain how, in your world, a star that is burning fuel can get more fuel to keep from burning out?

Science says it can't happen. But if you want to go with the "God can do it" explanation, that's fine. At the same time, using your "God can do it" explanation also is valid for God creating something out of nothing, which you oppose.

You are a whirlwind of inconsistency. Science is okay as long as it supports your viewpoint. When it doesn't, "God can do it", except your god can't do those things that oppose your [false] prophet's teachings, like ex nihilo.

 

[dzheremi]

It should surprise no one but Mormons that JS didn't know things that the people of his time and place didn't know either, since it's only Mormons that believe that JS had access to all kinds of special knowledge, and that JS/the BOM is being more and more proven right with advancements in science. (Actual scientists who aren't bought off by the LDS propaganda machine don't agree with that, obviously.)

It's no surprise, then, that our resident Mormons have nothing to say in response beyond the by now very tired non-reply of "Yeah, well, you too!", as though Christians have ever claimed that God lives on or near a star named Kolob or on any other star.

And still after all the years I've spent here so far discussing things with them, I can't understand why the best they can apparently shoot for in a mixed faith environment is to be considered equal with Christianity, a religion which they and their founding prophet believe to be corrupted beyond repair. Aiming pretty low there, aren't you guys?

 

[Dale]

Do I understand correctly that to astronomers there is no such star as Kolob?


I checked a list of stars and the alphabetical list goes from Kochab to Kornephoros.

If there were a Kolob known to science, it should be between those two.

Kochab [or] Kokab Ursa Minor star
Kornephoros Hercules club-bearer


Link to list of stars with names.
Star Names List

 

[He is the way]

We're not talking about water into wine. If you have a point, make it. Otherwise, please explain how, in your world, a star that is burning fuel can get more fuel to keep from burning out?

Science says it can't happen. But if you want to go with the "God can do it" explanation, that's fine. At the same time, using your "God can do it" explanation also is valid for God creating something out of nothing, which you oppose.

You are a whirlwind of inconsistency. Science is okay as long as it supports your viewpoint. When it doesn't, "God can do it", except your god can't do those things that oppose your [false] prophet's teachings, like ex nihilo.

Neither does the Bible state that God created the universe out of nothing or that God Himself is made of nothing.