LDS Joseph Smith and the Astronomers

[He is the way]

With what? Mormons believe God can't create something out of nothing, that matter always existed, and that God just "organized" it to create the universe. So where does he get the fuel to "refuel" a star? Is there a universal gas station somewhere??

Energy turns back into matter and matter can turn into energy, it is just an ongoing cycle. The amount of matter and energy in the universe remains constant. It never changes.

 

[Dale]

Luke 24: 39

Behold my hands and feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have.

(The Bible teaches that too.)




Luke 24: 42-43

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

(The Bible teaches that too.)




There is evidence of this in the Bible, but it does not make as clear a statement as the previous two examples.




As do the same stars and planets that are part of mainstream Christianity.




I doubt I'm any more concerned about it than you are. You live in the same universe as me. Anything that provides a solution to this supposed concern from mainstream Christianity would be equally true for us.

What's going to happen to you when this universe expires? How will that effect God? I'm curious about your thoughts on this matter.

On God having a body, hands, feet, and eating food, Luke and the other Gospels say that Jesus Christ, God the Son, had a physical body both before His death and after the resurrection. The Mormon church teaches that God the Father has a physical body.

The Spirit of God has made me;
the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Job 33:4 NIV

God does not need a physical body to be the Creator of the world, or the Creator of individual souls, or the Sustainer of the world.

Jesus says that "God is spirit" when he is talking to the woman at the well.

23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.
John 4:23-24 NIV

 

[He is the way]

On God having a body, hands, feet, and eating food, Luke and the other Gospels say that Jesus Christ, God the Son, had a physical body both before His death and after the resurrection. The Mormon church teaches that God the Father has a physical body.

The Spirit of God has made me;
the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Job 33:4 NIV

God does not need a physical body to be the Creator of the world, or the Creator of individual souls, or the Sustainer of the world.

Jesus says that "God is spirit" when he is talking to the woman at the well.

23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.
John 4:23-24 NIV

God is LOVE:

(New Testament | 1 John 4:8)

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:34)

34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Yes God the Father does have a spiritual body of flesh and bones, and so will we:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:42 - 46)

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

(New Testament | John 5:21 - 32)

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32 ¶ There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

 

[Dale]

Luke 24: 39

Behold my hands and feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have.

(The Bible teaches that too.)




Luke 24: 42-43

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

(The Bible teaches that too.)




There is evidence of this in the Bible, but it does not make as clear a statement as the previous two examples.




As do the same stars and planets that are part of mainstream Christianity.




I doubt I'm any more concerned about it than you are. You live in the same universe as me. Anything that provides a solution to this supposed concern from mainstream Christianity would be equally true for us.

What's going to happen to you when this universe expires? How will that effect God? I'm curious about your thoughts on this matter.

Ran77: "As do the same stars and planets that are part of mainstream Christianity."

The Bible is not a textbook of the sciences. I don't believe the Bible defines "star" or "planet."


Ran77: "What's going to happen to you when this universe expires? How will that effect God?"

I have never believed that God is limited by the physical universe. If the universe we live in did begin in one instant in a Big Bang, then I am sure that God spoke it into existence. If time did not exist before that happened, then God is beyond time.

Consider this passage from the Old Testament.

7 “Can you find out the deep things of God?
Can you find out the limit of the Almighty?
8 It is higher than heaven—what can you do?
Deeper than Sheol—what can you know?
9 Its measure is longer than the earth,
and broader than the sea.
Job11:7-9 RSV

This passage doesn't say that God is in heaven, it says that He is ABOVE the heavens, that is, not limited by any heavens that we see or understand.

 

[Ran77]

On God having a body, hands, feet, and eating food, Luke and the other Gospels say that Jesus Christ, God the Son, had a physical body both before His death and after the resurrection. The Mormon church teaches that God the Father has a physical body.

That doesn't change the fact that mainstream Christianity believe that Jesus is God and the Bible teaches that Jesus had a physical body, after His death.

Jesus says that "God is spirit" when he is talking to the woman at the well.

23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.
John 4:23-24 NIV

Oh, my giddy aunt. I love this argument. Let me comment on it for about the twentieth time on this forum.

The belief that mainstream Christianity applies to this verse is flawed. These two halves of verse 24 are treated differently. That's not the way language works.

"God is spirit . . ."

Mainstream Christianity applies a literal meaning to the first half of the verse. They claim that the verse means that God does not have a physical body. If that were true, then the second half of the verse would have to support that belief.

". . . and His worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."

Taken in a literal sense, that means worshipers must be spirits. They cannot have bodies. Which further means, no mortal can worship God. That idea is contrary to what the rest of the Bible teaches and is just plain silly.

Anyone seeking the truth, please think on this for a moment. I suspect that you know how language works. A single sentence is going to remain consistent in how it represents a topic. Either the words are meant to be taken literally or they are meant to be taken figuratively. That is done to prevent confusion. If readers could not compare the two halves of a statement to determine what was literal and what was figurative, then we would never be able to express our thoughts to one another with any degree of accuracy. Language has rules and this is one of them.

Now, the challenge for truth seekers. Look at verse 24. Look at it once, literally. Then look at it once figuratively. What do you think it means. If you're not sure, ask God.

 

[Ran77]

Ran77: "As do the same stars and planets that are part of mainstream Christianity."

The Bible is not a textbook of the sciences. I don't believe the Bible defines "star" or "planet."


Ran77: "What's going to happen to you when this universe expires? How will that effect God?"

I have never believed that God is limited by the physical universe. If the universe we live in did begin in one instant in a Big Bang, then I am sure that God spoke it into existence. If time did not exist before that happened, then God is beyond time.

Then the same explanation should work for us. Anything that bails mainstream Christianity out of the supposed problem caused by the death of the universe will apply to us as well.

Consider this passage from the Old Testament.

7 “Can you find out the deep things of God?
Can you find out the limit of the Almighty?
8 It is higher than heaven—what can you do?
Deeper than Sheol—what can you know?
9 Its measure is longer than the earth,
and broader than the sea.
Job11:7-9 RSV

This passage doesn't say that God is in heaven, it says that He is ABOVE the heavens, that is, not limited by any heavens that we see or understand.

Okay. And we can claim the same thing.

 

[Dale]

Energy turns back into matter and matter can turn into energy, it is just an ongoing cycle. The amount of matter and energy in the universe remains constant. It never changes.

HeIsTheWay,

I get the impression that you've never studied the physical sciences. While mass-energy is always conserved, "free energy" or "available energy" is always decreasing. Eventually there is no free energy available to do useful work.

Available-energy definitions

(physics) All energy that could somehow be converted to mechanical work.


Link
AVAILABLE-ENERGY | 1 Definitions of Available-energy - YourDictionary


Other sources call it Free Energy but it's the same thing.

Free Energy

"A system will change spontaneously to achieve a lower total free energy. Thus, free energy is the driving force toward equilibrium conditions.

--E. Britannica Ready Reference


In other words, energy always exists in a sense but it won't always be available to do useful work. That is why physicists predict an eventual Heat Death of the Universe.

 

[He is the way]

HeIsTheWay,

I get the impression that you've never studied the physical sciences. While mass-energy is always conserved, "free energy" or "available energy" is always decreasing. Eventually there is no free energy available to do useful work.

Available-energy definitions

(physics) All energy that could somehow be converted to mechanical work.


Link
AVAILABLE-ENERGY | 1 Definitions of Available-energy - YourDictionary


Other sources call it Free Energy but it's the same thing.

Free Energy

"A system will change spontaneously to achieve a lower total free energy. Thus, free energy is the driving force toward equilibrium conditions.

--E. Britannica Ready Reference


In other words, energy always exists in a sense but it won't always be available to do useful work. That is why physicists predict an eventual Heat Death of the Universe.

I read the definition of available energy. I checked the internet to find some disagreement there mostly due to this law:

"The law of conservation of energy, also known as the first law of thermodynamics, states that the energy of a closed system must remain constant—it can neither increase nor decrease without interference from outside. The universe itself is a closed system, so the total amount of energy in existence has always been the same. The forms that energy takes, however, are constantly changing......

As scientists have better understood the forms of energy, they have revealed new ways for energy to convert from one form to another. When physicists first formulated quantum theory they realized that an electron in an atom can jump from one energy level to another, giving off or absorbing light. In 1924 Niels Bohr, Hans Kramers, and John Slater proposed that these quantum jumps temporarily violated energy conservation. According to the physicists, each quantum jump would liberate or absorb energy, and only on average would energy be conserved.

Einstein objected fervently to the idea that quantum mechanics defied energy conservation. And it turns out he was right. After physicists refined quantum mechanics a few years later, scientists understood that although the energy of each electron might fluctuate in a probabilistic haze, the total energy of the electron and its radiation remained constant at every moment of the process. Energy was conserved."

From: Fact or Fiction?: Energy Can Neither Be Created Nor Destroyed

 

[chad kincham]

Not that Joseph Smith was a scientist, but there is a book https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Scientist-Widtsoe-John/dp/1594628122 which shows that Joseph Smith did know much about the universe.

Since he quoted 3,000 KJV verses verbatim in the BOM, I have no doubt he plagiarized his science facts from the Bible, such as the fact that God hangs the earth upon nothing, etc.

 

[He is the way]

Since he quoted 3,000 KJV verses verbatim in the BOM, I have no doubt he plagiarized his science facts from the Bible, such as the fact that God hangs the earth upon nothing, etc.

Many of those things were not known to science at the time including the doctrine that tobacco is injurious to man and that the tobacco companies would cover it up.

 

[Dale]

Many of those things were not known to science at the time including the doctrine that tobacco is injurious to man and that the tobacco companies would cover it up.

I read an article on tobacco that went back to the time when tobacco was first brought back from the New World. Doctors didn't like tobacco from the minute they saw people smoking it. They just didn't have the kind of controlled studies we do in the 20th/21st centuries to prove that it damages the lungs.

 

[Dale]

I read the definition of available energy. I checked the internet to find some disagreement there mostly due to this law:

"The law of conservation of energy, also known as the first law of thermodynamics, states that the energy of a closed system must remain constant—it can neither increase nor decrease without interference from outside. The universe itself is a closed system, so the total amount of energy in existence has always been the same. The forms that energy takes, however, are constantly changing......

As scientists have better understood the forms of energy, they have revealed new ways for energy to convert from one form to another. When physicists first formulated quantum theory they realized that an electron in an atom can jump from one energy level to another, giving off or absorbing light. In 1924 Niels Bohr, Hans Kramers, and John Slater proposed that these quantum jumps temporarily violated energy conservation. According to the physicists, each quantum jump would liberate or absorb energy, and only on average would energy be conserved.

Einstein objected fervently to the idea that quantum mechanics defied energy conservation. And it turns out he was right. After physicists refined quantum mechanics a few years later, scientists understood that although the energy of each electron might fluctuate in a probabilistic haze, the total energy of the electron and its radiation remained constant at every moment of the process. Energy was conserved."

From: Fact or Fiction?: Energy Can Neither Be Created Nor Destroyed

You don't understand the distinction between energy and free energy, or energy available to do useful work.

 

[He is the way]

I read an article on tobacco that went back to the time when tobacco was first brought back from the New World. Doctors didn't like tobacco from the minute they saw people smoking it. They just didn't have the kind of controlled studies we do in the 20th/21st centuries to prove that it damages the lungs.

Nor did they have the studies when the word of wisdom was written.

 

[He is the way]

You don't understand the distinction between energy and free energy, or energy available to do useful work.

Perhaps I will be able to understand that difference in a couple of trillion years.

 

[Dale]

Nor did they have the studies when the word of wisdom was written.

Mormon Elders have told me that BOM prohibits drinking coffee and tea.

Nutritionists are saying that coffee is good for you, up to 25 cups a day.

Tea also has some ingredients that are beneficial to our health.

 

[chad kincham]

Many of those things were not known to science at the time including the doctrine that tobacco is injurious to man and that the tobacco companies would cover it up.

Joe Smith also said coffee was bad, yet we now know it’s one of the healthiest drinks around - it’s very high in antioxidants and protects from diabetes and many forms of cancer, and more.

 

[He is the way]

Mormon Elders have told me that BOM prohibits drinking coffee and tea.

Nutritionists are saying that coffee is good for you, up to 25 cups a day.

Tea also has some ingredients that are beneficial to our health.

"Results of the Johns Hopkins study should result in caffeine withdrawal being included in the next edition of the DSM or the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, considered the bible of mental disorders, and the diagnosis should be updated in the World Health Organization's ICD, or The International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems.

"Caffeine is the world's most commonly used stimulant, and it's cheap and readily available so people can maintain their use of caffeine quite easily," says Roland Griffiths, Ph.D., professor of psychiatry and neuroscience at Johns Hopkins. "The latest research demonstrates, however, that when people don't get their usual dose they can suffer a range of withdrawal symptoms, including headache, fatigue, difficulty concentrating. They may even feel like they have the flu with nausea and muscle pain."

From: CAFFEINE WITHDRAWAL RECOGNIZED AS A DISORDER

 

[Dale]

"Results of the Johns Hopkins study should result in caffeine withdrawal being included in the next edition of the DSM or the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, considered the bible of mental disorders, and the diagnosis should be updated in the World Health Organization's ICD, or The International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems.

"Caffeine is the world's most commonly used stimulant, and it's cheap and readily available so people can maintain their use of caffeine quite easily," says Roland Griffiths, Ph.D., professor of psychiatry and neuroscience at Johns Hopkins. "The latest research demonstrates, however, that when people don't get their usual dose they can suffer a range of withdrawal symptoms, including headache, fatigue, difficulty concentrating. They may even feel like they have the flu with nausea and muscle pain."

From: CAFFEINE WITHDRAWAL RECOGNIZED AS A DISORDER

Does that explain why the Mormon church says you can't have one cup of coffee per day? Perhaps at breakfast?

 

[Ironhold]

Mormon Elders have told me that BOM prohibits drinking coffee and tea.

Nutritionists are saying that coffee is good for you, up to 25 cups a day.

Tea also has some ingredients that are beneficial to our health.

Caffeine Informer

Not all coffee is equal when it comes to ingredients, especially caffeine.

I think if most people understood how much was in the coffee they drank they'd be shocked.

As far as most standard teas go, I actually had an oral surgeon recommend use of a wet tea bag to cauterize the sockets after my wisdom teeth came out. The tannin in a wet tea bag will do that.

 

[He is the way]

Joe Smith also said coffee was bad, yet we now know it’s one of the healthiest drinks around - it’s very high in antioxidants and protects from diabetes and many forms of cancer, and more.

There are other drinks that do the same thing without the caffeine. Caffeine causes headaches and can become habit forming.