LDS Joseph Smith and the Astronomers

Dale

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Joseph Smith believed that "God," or "Gods," created our sun and solar system, including the earth, by pushing matter together. In the 19th century, astronomers believed, or assumed, that our sun would burn, produce heat and light, forever. They didn't know how the sun produced light and heat so they had no reason to make any other prediction. (Science is cautious.)

By the early 20th century, scientists realized that our sun produces heat and light by fusing hydrogen atoms into helium atoms. In the case of our sun, or other stars the same size, it fuses four hydrogen atoms into one helium atom. Larger stars can fuse six or eight hydrogen atoms at a time. Once science understood the mechanism for a star producing heat and light, it became obvious that the sun's supply of hydrogen would eventually run out. The sun's lifetime is measured in billions of years but it is finite.

Joseph Smith told us that "God" lives on a planet near the star Kolob. If so, Kolob, like our sun, will eventually run out of hydrogen and reach its end stage. JS assumed that stars, once formed, would last forever. It never occurred to him that his "God" would eventually have to vacate his heavenly home and look for a new one, or create a new one. It looks like LDS heavens aren't permanent.

Likewise, JS wasn't familiar with the law of entropy. According to the laws of thermodynamics, the entire universe must eventually run out of energy and run down, becoming a cold, dark, place.

Do modern Mormons ever think about this? It is clear that Joseph Smith's view of eternity was limited by what science knew, and did not know, in the early 19th century. We know more about the physical universe today. We know that the earth will not always be inhabitable, that our sun will not last forever, and even the physical universe as a whole won't last forever.

Traditional Christianity never thought that God was limited by the physical universe. The Mormon religion starts from the assumption that their God is limited by the physical universe. That limitation is a serious problem.
 

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Joseph Smith believed that "God," or "Gods," created our sun and solar system, including the earth, by pushing matter together. In the 19th century, astronomers believed, or assumed, that our sun would burn, produce heat and light, forever. They didn't know how the sun produced light and heat so they had no reason to make any other prediction. (Science is cautious.)

By the early 20th century, scientists realized that our sun produces heat and light by fusing hydrogen atoms into helium atoms. In the case of our sun, or other stars the same size, it fuses four hydrogen atoms into one helium atom. Larger stars can fuse six or eight hydrogen atoms at a time. Once science understood the mechanism for a star producing heat and light, it became obvious that the sun's supply of hydrogen would eventually run out. The sun's lifetime is measured in billions of years but it is finite.

Joseph Smith told us that "God" lives on a planet near the star Kolob. If so, Kolob, like our sun, will eventually run out of hydrogen and reach its end stage. JS assumed that stars, once formed, would last forever. It never occurred to him that his "God" would eventually have to vacate his heavenly home and look for a new one, or create a new one. It looks like LDS heavens aren't permanent.

Likewise, JS wasn't familiar with the law of entropy. According to the laws of thermodynamics, the entire universe must eventually run out of energy and run down, becoming a cold, dark, place.

Do modern Mormons ever think about this? It is clear that Joseph Smith's view of eternity was limited by what science knew, and did not know, in the early 19th century. We know more about the physical universe today. We know that the earth will not always be inhabitable, that our sun will not last forever, and even the physical universe as a whole won't last forever.

Traditional Christianity never thought that God was limited by the physical universe. The Mormon religion starts from the assumption that their God is limited by the physical universe. That limitation is a serious problem.

well I have a lot of complaints about LDS doctrine but the idea that God would be doing something inside the actual universe -- like having angels around a real throne in some real place... is not one of my complaints against LDS doctrine.

Christ raised himself from the dead. The tomb was really filled at one time and is now really physically empty. The guards around the real physical tomb fell like dead men. The fact that God can express Himself as having the property of location - is not an argument for Mormonism or against the Trinity.
 
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He is the way

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Joseph Smith believed that "God," or "Gods," created our sun and solar system, including the earth, by pushing matter together. In the 19th century, astronomers believed, or assumed, that our sun would burn, produce heat and light, forever. They didn't know how the sun produced light and heat so they had no reason to make any other prediction. (Science is cautious.)

By the early 20th century, scientists realized that our sun produces heat and light by fusing hydrogen atoms into helium atoms. In the case of our sun, or other stars the same size, it fuses four hydrogen atoms into one helium atom. Larger stars can fuse six or eight hydrogen atoms at a time. Once science understood the mechanism for a star producing heat and light, it became obvious that the sun's supply of hydrogen would eventually run out. The sun's lifetime is measured in billions of years but it is finite.

Joseph Smith told us that "God" lives on a planet near the star Kolob. If so, Kolob, like our sun, will eventually run out of hydrogen and reach its end stage. JS assumed that stars, once formed, would last forever. It never occurred to him that his "God" would eventually have to vacate his heavenly home and look for a new one, or create a new one. It looks like LDS heavens aren't permanent.

Likewise, JS wasn't familiar with the law of entropy. According to the laws of thermodynamics, the entire universe must eventually run out of energy and run down, becoming a cold, dark, place.

Do modern Mormons ever think about this? It is clear that Joseph Smith's view of eternity was limited by what science knew, and did not know, in the early 19th century. We know more about the physical universe today. We know that the earth will not always be inhabitable, that our sun will not last forever, and even the physical universe as a whole won't last forever.

Traditional Christianity never thought that God was limited by the physical universe. The Mormon religion starts from the assumption that their God is limited by the physical universe. That limitation is a serious problem.
Not that Joseph Smith was a scientist, but there is a book https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Scientist-Widtsoe-John/dp/1594628122 which shows that Joseph Smith did know much about the universe.
 
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He is the way

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There is a book, called the Book of Mormon, that shows Joseph Smith knew very little about God and was not one of his prophets. Have you heard of it?
Yes, the Book of Mormon proves that Joseph Smith was indeed a prophet of God. The Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion and a person can get closer to God by living according to the precepts set forth therein.
 
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Ran77

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There is a book, called the Book of Mormon, that shows Joseph Smith knew very little about God and was not one of his prophets. Have you heard of it?

It is an amazing book and it convinced me that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God.
 
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Dale

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Yes, the Book of Mormon proves that Joseph Smith was indeed a prophet of God. The Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion and a person can get closer to God by living according to the precepts set forth therein.

It is an amazing book and it convinced me that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God.



The LDS church teaches that God has a physical body, eats food, and has at least one wife.
The LDS church teaches that God lives on a planet orbiting the star Kolob.
Today we know that stars, planets and even the physical universe as a whole do not last forever, they have a limited lifetime.

Does it concern you that your heavenly home is not eternal? That we know it can't last forever?
 
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The LDS church teaches that God has a physical body, eats food, and has at least one wife.
The LDS church teaches that God lives on a planet orbiting the star Kolob.
Today we know that stars, planets and even the physical universe as a whole do not last forever, they have a limited lifetime.

Does it concern you that your heavenly home is not eternal? That we know it can't last forever?
Matter can NOT be destroyed:

Conservation of mass | physics
 
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Dale

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Matter can NOT be destroyed:

Conservation of mass | physics


While matter cannot be destroyed, or mass-energy cannot be destroyed, stars burn out and come to an end eventually.

I don't know what you were taught. When I was in the fifth or sixth grade we saw films that explained that the sun would use up its hydrogen and become a nova in five or six billion years.

"What does death mean, for the sun? It means our sun will run out of fuel in its interior. It’ll cease the internal thermonuclear reactions that enable stars to shine. It’ll swell into a red giant, whose outer layers will engulf Mercury and Venus and likely reach the Earth. Life on Earth will end."

and

"The immensely high pressures and temperatures in its interior will slacken. The sun will shrink down to become a dying ember of a star, known as a white dwarf, only a little larger than Earth."

The earth and sun can't continue forever as we know it.

Link
What will happen when our sun dies? | EarthSky.org
 
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While matter cannot be destroyed, or mass-energy cannot be destroyed, stars burn out and come to an end eventually.

I don't know what you were taught. When I was in the fifth or sixth grade we saw films that explained that the sun would use up its hydrogen and become a nova in five or six billion years.

"What does death mean, for the sun? It means our sun will run out of fuel in its interior. It’ll cease the internal thermonuclear reactions that enable stars to shine. It’ll swell into a red giant, whose outer layers will engulf Mercury and Venus and likely reach the Earth. Life on Earth will end."

and

"The immensely high pressures and temperatures in its interior will slacken. The sun will shrink down to become a dying ember of a star, known as a white dwarf, only a little larger than Earth."

The earth and sun can't continue forever as we know it.

Link
What will happen when our sun dies? | EarthSky.org
That is unless the sun is refueled at some point.
 
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Dale

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That is unless the sun is refueled at some point.


We don't see that happening to other stars throughout the cosmos. Every indication is that stars run out of fuel and either explode or cool off, becoming brown dwarfs.
 
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That is unless the sun is refueled at some point.


Let me try a different take on the problem. Have you ever heard of the Heat Death of the Universe? According to Second Law of Thermodynamics, known as entropy, the amount of available energy always decreases in a closed system. It looks like the universe as a whole is a closed system. The universe as a whole must run out of useful energy at some point as the temperature equalizes.

<< In this case the second law of thermodynamics (in the simplified form presented here) says that no matter what process takes place inside the container, its entropy must increase or remain the same in the limit of a reversible process. Similarly, if the universe is an isolated system, then its entropy too must increase with time. Indeed, the implication is that the universe must ultimately suffer a “heat death” as its entropy progressively increases toward a maximum value and all parts come into thermal equilibrium at a uniform temperature. After that point, no further changes involving the conversion of heat into useful work would be possible. >>

--Encyclopedia Britannica under Entropy and Heat Death


Link
Thermodynamics - Entropy and heat death
 
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Ran77

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The LDS church teaches that God has a physical body . . .

Luke 24: 39

Behold my hands and feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have.

(The Bible teaches that too.)


. . . eats food . . .

Luke 24: 42-43

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

(The Bible teaches that too.)


. . . and has at least one wife.

There is evidence of this in the Bible, but it does not make as clear a statement as the previous two examples.


The LDS church teaches that God lives on a planet orbiting the star Kolob.
Today we know that stars, planets and even the physical universe as a whole do not last forever, they have a limited lifetime.

As do the same stars and planets that are part of mainstream Christianity.


Does it concern you that your heavenly home is not eternal? That we know it can't last forever?

I doubt I'm any more concerned about it than you are. You live in the same universe as me. Anything that provides a solution to this supposed concern from mainstream Christianity would be equally true for us.

What's going to happen to you when this universe expires? How will that effect God? I'm curious about your thoughts on this matter.
 
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Let me try a different take on the problem. Have you ever heard of the Heat Death of the Universe? According to Second Law of Thermodynamics, known as entropy, the amount of available energy always decreases in a closed system. It looks like the universe as a whole is a closed system. The universe as a whole must run out of useful energy at some point as the temperature equalizes.

<< In this case the second law of thermodynamics (in the simplified form presented here) says that no matter what process takes place inside the container, its entropy must increase or remain the same in the limit of a reversible process. Similarly, if the universe is an isolated system, then its entropy too must increase with time. Indeed, the implication is that the universe must ultimately suffer a “heat death” as its entropy progressively increases toward a maximum value and all parts come into thermal equilibrium at a uniform temperature. After that point, no further changes involving the conversion of heat into useful work would be possible. >>

--Encyclopedia Britannica under Entropy and Heat Death


Link
Thermodynamics - Entropy and heat death
God created the universe, you don't believe He can refuel a star?
 
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God created the universe, you don't believe He can refuel a star?
With what? Mormons believe God can't create something out of nothing, that matter always existed, and that God just "organized" it to create the universe. So where does he get the fuel to "refuel" a star? Is there a universal gas station somewhere??
 
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