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Joseph Prince interpretation of 1 John 1:9
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Why do we need to confess our sins if they have already been forgiven (1 John 1:9)?
Here is another interpretation of 1 John 1:9
The Apostle Paul wrote, To the praise of his glorious grace which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanting."
(Eph 1:6-8)
This forgivenes is referring to salvation, in which God has taken our sins and removed them from us "as far as the east is from the west. "
(Psa 103:12)
This is the jucicial forgiveness that God gives us upon receivng Jesus Christ as Savior. All our past, present, and future sins are forgiven on a judicial basis, meaning that we will not suffer eternal judgment for our sins. We still often suffer consequences of sin when we are here on earth, however, which brings us to the question at hand.
The difference between Eph. 1:6-8 and 1 John 1:9 is that John is dealing with what we call "relational," or "familial," forgiveness; likd that of a father and a son. For example, if a son does something wrong to his father; falling short of his expectations or rules, the son has hindered his fellowship with his father. He remains the sone fo his father, but the realationship suffers.
Their fellwoship will be hindered until the son admits to his father that he has done wrong. It works the same way with God; our fellowship with him is hindered until we confess our sin. When we convess our sin to God, the fellowship is restored. This is relational forgiveness.
"Positional" forgiveness, or judicial forgiveness, is that which is obtained by every believer in Christ. In our position as members of the body of Christ, we have been forgiven of every sin we have ever committed or ever will commit. The price paid by Bhrist on the cross has satisfied God's wrath against sin and no further sacrifice or payment is necessary. When Jesus said, "it is finished," He meant it. Our positional forgiveness was obtained then and there.
Confession of sin will help to keep us from the discipline fo the Lord. If we fail to confess sin, the discipline of the Lord is sure to come until we confess it. As stated previously, our sins are forgiven at salvation(positonal forgiveness), but our dail felloswhip with God needs to stay in good standing (relational forgiveness). Proper fellowship with God cannot happen with unconfessed sin in our lives. There fore we need to confess our sinst to God as soon as wer are aware that we have sinned, in order to maintain close fellowship with God.
Taken from qotquestions.org
Be blessed,
Laoshir
Here is another interpretation of 1 John 1:9
The Apostle Paul wrote, To the praise of his glorious grace which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanting."
(Eph 1:6-8)
This forgivenes is referring to salvation, in which God has taken our sins and removed them from us "as far as the east is from the west. "
(Psa 103:12)
This is the jucicial forgiveness that God gives us upon receivng Jesus Christ as Savior. All our past, present, and future sins are forgiven on a judicial basis, meaning that we will not suffer eternal judgment for our sins. We still often suffer consequences of sin when we are here on earth, however, which brings us to the question at hand.
The difference between Eph. 1:6-8 and 1 John 1:9 is that John is dealing with what we call "relational," or "familial," forgiveness; likd that of a father and a son. For example, if a son does something wrong to his father; falling short of his expectations or rules, the son has hindered his fellowship with his father. He remains the sone fo his father, but the realationship suffers.
Their fellwoship will be hindered until the son admits to his father that he has done wrong. It works the same way with God; our fellowship with him is hindered until we confess our sin. When we convess our sin to God, the fellowship is restored. This is relational forgiveness.
"Positional" forgiveness, or judicial forgiveness, is that which is obtained by every believer in Christ. In our position as members of the body of Christ, we have been forgiven of every sin we have ever committed or ever will commit. The price paid by Bhrist on the cross has satisfied God's wrath against sin and no further sacrifice or payment is necessary. When Jesus said, "it is finished," He meant it. Our positional forgiveness was obtained then and there.
Confession of sin will help to keep us from the discipline fo the Lord. If we fail to confess sin, the discipline of the Lord is sure to come until we confess it. As stated previously, our sins are forgiven at salvation(positonal forgiveness), but our dail felloswhip with God needs to stay in good standing (relational forgiveness). Proper fellowship with God cannot happen with unconfessed sin in our lives. There fore we need to confess our sinst to God as soon as wer are aware that we have sinned, in order to maintain close fellowship with God.
Taken from qotquestions.org
Be blessed,
Laoshir
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Part of the good news is that we really do! He didn't just leave us like we were, only "imputing" salvation to us. He gave us a new nature (which I know you're very familiar with, cause I've seen the evidence of it). If we walk in the light of that nature, the fruit we bear really is righteous. We can walk in that fruit all day if we deny our flesh.
We can deny our flesh. It's bold to say because everyday I miss it with the flesh. Every day the natural man rears up his ugly head in some form that is contrary to what God wants.
Still, the beauty of repentance, and in particular this 1 John passage, is that the believer, after missing it (sometimes very badly) can repent and be forgiven and that break restored and that righteous nature restored again.
It is being born through us as a vine to the branches. It's potentially every day of every hour and it's a very deliberate walk since He's very different in nature from the natural man.
The fruit of not making the choice to follow His promptings is pretty bad in comparison. Thank God He paid the penalty for all of our sins, and we can know reconciliation again when we repent. It's an hour by hour, day by day walk, where we maintain our covenant with God. It has to be honored every day for Jesus to remain your Lord, even though we're sealed with the Spirit, and all of the good things He planted in our gardens since we came to know Him.
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Here's a thought. If all sin past, present and future are all forgiven at the cross then what do we make of this versa?
(NASB)Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Here it seems they received forgiveness after repentance.
Also this verse:
(NASB)Acts 26:18
to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.''
Here they received forgiveness when they turned to the light rather than at the cross.
From these verses it seems forgiveness is conditional rather than imputed at the cross.
Your thoughts?
(NASB)Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Here it seems they received forgiveness after repentance.
Also this verse:
(NASB)Acts 26:18
to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.''
Here they received forgiveness when they turned to the light rather than at the cross.
From these verses it seems forgiveness is conditional rather than imputed at the cross.
Your thoughts?
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ABlessedAnomaly
Teacher of the Word
Depends what you mean by "conditional." Of course it is conditional: conditioned upon your response to Jesus' sacrifice. If you accept Jesus as your Savior, then you shall be forgiven; if not, then you remain lost. In this forgiveness, righteousness is imputed (credited) to you. Here....
Romans 4:16-25
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, I have made you a father of many nations) in the presence of Him whom he believedGod, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, So shall your descendants be. 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarahs womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore it was accounted to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
Jesus paid the price for us. He was crucified because of our sin, to pay that price; He was raised because of our justification (just-as-if-I'd never sinned). Then we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, I have made you a father of many nations) in the presence of Him whom he believedGod, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, So shall your descendants be. 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarahs womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore it was accounted to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
If we stumble again, the Holy Spirit does not leave. Our justification is not wiped out. Our salvation is not lost. WE did not do any of these things; WE did not earn any of these things. They were free gifts, propogated ONLY on our acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice.
But in this we were not made righteous in ourselves. Otherwise we would not sin again. Rather:
2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
1 John 3:9
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Jesus was made to be sin; we became the righteousness of God in Him. Did we become righteous? No. We became "the righteousness of God" in Him. Do we sin daily? Of course! But 1 John 3:9 says we "cannot sin." We are born of God, and this means that God does not see our sin any longer because of Jesus blood. God sees us through the blood and sees us cleansed. Our sin tomorrow does not remove us from being the righteousness of God in Him -- it simply takes us out of God's perfect will for our life. He will convict; Holy Spirit will guide; we will get back on track if we listen. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
1 John 3:9
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
When we give our heart to Jesus Christ three things occur: regeneration -- you are changed in an instant; justification -- you are justified in the eyes of God, through the blood of Christ, so that you look as Jesus does as one who is clean of sin, who cannot sin; and sanctification -- you are set aside as holy for God's holy use.
Once God regenerates, He will not reverse the process.
Once God justifies, He will not impute your sins back upon you.
Once God sanctifies, He will not defile.
Your free will allows you to turn your back on Him, to walk on a path not holy and of His choosing -- to walk out of His will and into the curse of this world. You will pay for that in lack of prosperity: health, wealth, joy, peace, etc. can be at a loss. When you walk astray, REPENT and get back under His covering, under His wing.
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We are in covenant which is an agreement by which both parties agree to be "all in" according to the agreement. An important part of the covenant is the ability to repent. God deals with us with the rod and with stripes. He convicts and loves us back into repentance, but we MUST answer the call to repent.
We are to be living sacrifices, our lives are no more our own, we are "dead" and alive unto God. That is our part in the covenant. We are to submit and believe. We are to walk with a perfect heart loving God with our whole being. We are to do what He says. That's how we love Him according to Jesus. That is how we call Him Lord. By saying "yes" to the Holy Spirit, we can say (by the Spirit) that Jesus is Lord. That's the only way. Other than that, it is just an empty confession, of which many will make in the last day when they claim that they moved in the gifts of the Spirit (which you have to be born again to do). But those who work iniquity (those who do not walk in the Spirit) will depart from Him.
God's part is to give you eternal life, the divine nature (which is righteous), and all things that pertain to life and godliness (just for starters!)
We are not to walk according to our carnal, natural ways of the flesh (which opposes God). If we live in the Spirit, we sow righteousness. If we walk according to the flesh, we sow corruption. Our reaping is forthcoming.
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Romans 7:1-3
So if your flesh man walks and "lives", you are an adulteress and are under law.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Gal 5:14
Don't walk in the Spirit? You don't fulfill the law and you're a lawbreaker.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:1
In Christ Jesus - Who walk after the Spirit.
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But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:17-18
Of couse "He" does not do the defiling, we do.
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Heb 12:15
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Rev 3:4-5
How much more straightforward can you get? Notice they had the garments of righteousness. That wedding garment, but they were defiled. Also, they "were" in the Book of Life.
Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1 Cor 8:7
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Titus 1:15-16
Pure and undefiled
Unbelieving and defiled
I've walked in the flesh, being backslid and was disobedient and reprobate partyer. It's not talking just talking about unbelievers.
We are not righteous in ourselves. We are righteous "in Him". That is the submited, believer. We will still sin because we walk in a sinful body. We have to choose which nature to walk in and this will tell whether or not we make it because we will be judged by our fruit.
God only sees the blood when one repents and believes in Jesus. Believers have to walk in the light and the scripture is clear about this.
Jesus and John both indicated that abiding was conditional. We have no righteousness unless we abide in Him. This means to live or dwell.
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Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1 John 2:24
...but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1 John 2:27
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:33
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Romans 11:21-22
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:4
This is why we will be judged for our fruit. If we abide, we bear fruit of the Spirit. If we do not, we wither and are cast off to be burned. We can repent and bear fruit immediately, but the choice is ours, it is not made for us
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6
As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
John 15:9-10
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:1
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:4
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:18
If we're not led, we're back under law. The law was added because of transgressions. Not one jot or tittle will pass away from the law UNTIL it be fulfilled.
We're all accountable for it and we should all walk in the fear of the Lord because any one of us can walk in the flesh at any time. The race we run is against the enemy (who uses the world, and potentially our flesh). The race is not over and prizes are not being handed out yet.
It's true God is merciful and if someone endeavors to walk in His righteousness and deny himself, He knows this and deals with all believers (since we're all in the same race). He might judge someone and bring them home (leading them first to repentance), but we cannot rest from the race based on the knowledge of His mercy.
It's a war and any one of the righteous, if they let themselves go and not continue in the fight (guarding their heart with diligence) might yield and receive seed of the enemy, which might take root and lead "believers" to walk in total opposition to God as an enemy to Him (whether they intend to or not). We MUST walk in godly fear because I have seen the righteous fall away, and we can only pray that God in His mercy will deal with them, returning them to the fold (they are now dead to Him as the prodigal was).
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trulyconverted
Junior Member
1John 5:13 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life."
Yes, 1 John is for believers. This book helps us examine ourselves if we are truly in the faith and that also we may know that we have eternal life.
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trulyconverted
Junior Member
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The believing gets us our robe. It's writes us in His book. We are in the kingdom. It must be kept. It's easy to do the believing part without the corresponding actions. Jesus told even the "children of Abraham" that if they were Abraham's children, they would do the works of Abraham. The knew and really believed they were descended from Abraham.What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Romans 4:1-2
That says we cannot get in on our works. We receive Jesus. But our wages (which we'll surely receive are based on our works).
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
James 2:19-23
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Gen 26:5
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Deut 30:19-20
It's a day by day, moment by moment choice to hear and obey His voice in our hearts (where His law is written), that we may obtain our inheritance. This is because the wages of love and sin are still the same (life and death).
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trulyconverted
Junior Member
If one says he is a believer and bears bad fruit in a habitual form in their life then that person is LYING.
If one says that he is a believer and shows good works then we might say that this person is truly a believer. As good works MUST follow salvation.
No need to strive as God gives us His grace so we are empowered by Him to be able to do good works. Philippians 1:6 "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." See, this verse says that the Lord Himself will enable us to do it.
We MUST NOT make good works a requirement for salvation. Because IT IS NOT.
We have been saved by grace through faith which is a gift of God, this is not of our works SO THAT NO ONE MAY BOAST.
Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Anyone who says I did this, I did that that is why I got saved or that is why I will be saved in the end - in verse 9 - it is called BOASTING.
Why do I say people who say they are believers and continually bearing bad fruits are liars? Look at these passages...
Matthew 7:
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.
18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
24 "Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.
26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it."
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trulyconverted
Junior Member
If we truly belong to Christ nobody can snatch us out of God's hand...
John 10:
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are one."
True salvation can not be lost, if the Father has given us to Jesus... Look at these passages...
John 17:
6 "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.
7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you.
8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.
9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.
10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.
11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.
12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
13 But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.
16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.
18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.
Judas was the son of perdition. In the gospels, he was there for a purpose - 'that the scriptures might be fulfilled'.
John 10:
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are one."
True salvation can not be lost, if the Father has given us to Jesus... Look at these passages...
John 17:
6 "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.
7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you.
8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.
9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.
10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.
11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.
12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
13 But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.
16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.
18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.
Judas was the son of perdition. In the gospels, he was there for a purpose - 'that the scriptures might be fulfilled'.
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ABlessedAnomaly
Teacher of the Word
Hi tc,
This answer is too pat and packaged....the answer really isn't that linear (ok, simple). Overall, I agree that 1 John is for believers. No doubt. But....
1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
Let's take verse 8, for instance. We deceive ourselves if we say we have no sin. Hey, that sounds right to us, doesn't it? Aren't you a sinner??8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
I'm not.
Ok, quit choking on your coffee. I didn't say that I don't sin, but I am not a sinner. (The old addage, "I'm a sinner saved by grace!" is incorrect: "I WAS a sinnner; now I'm saved by grace", is more correct.)
Why do I say this? Well, let's allow John, in this SAME BOOK, tell us:
1 John 3:8-9
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Now, let me ask you again: do you sin? Are you a classified sinner? Then you are of the devil. Scripture tells us this.8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Verse 9 tells us that one who is born again "does not sin"...."and he cannot sin" because he is born again.
So the key here is to rectify 1 John 1 with 1 John 3 -- for scripture does not lie nor does it contradict itself.
As a born again believer, I am washed in the blood of Jesus. I am cleansed of all sin (past, present and future). It is finished. God, who is perfect in justice and will not tolerate sin of any kind, sees me as righteous and justified. I'm clean. I am seen as one who cannot sin. Why? Because my sin is ALREADY paid for. God won't impute it to me. I'm not held accountable for it. (This is not to dismiss repentance, but let's keep this on track.)
1 John 1 tells us not to forget where we came from: we were sinners before we were washed; if anyone confesses those sins Jesus is faithful to fogive and wash us clean. Clean of what? Clean of all our sins.
Now look closely at verse 10: "If we say we have not sinned...." past tense. Not a current condition. We must never forget where we came from and WHY we are here and HOW we got here. It is ALL pointing to Jesus.
We were sinners. He is faithful. He cleansed. Now I am born again. Because of this I do not sin...I cannot sin. I am born again. He who continues in sin (practices it) is of the devil. Jesus destroyed the works of the devil.
If we attempt to focus on 1 John 1:9-10 in relationship to all the sin passages of scripture, then we live in the past. We live in our sinful, old-man state. We embrace it and don't allow it go away.
If we ONLY attempt to focus on 1 John 3:9 and look at all scripture of the transformed man, then we deny who we were and the powerful act of sacrifice that saved us from that. We threaten to think more highly of ourselves (instead of who we were made to be in Christ) and we threaten to suffer from and stumble into pride.
We MUST rectify both 1 John 1 and 1 John 3 together. We must understand who we were and who we have been transformed into. We must understand our old man and our new man. And we must remember and understand WHY we have a new man.
Once we get here we will truly understand why....
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
There is NO condemnation in Christ Jesus. None. When you stumble, get back up and repent; get back on the right path with God. You weren't condemned while you stumbled (your salvation was not in question). There is NO condemnation to those in Christ Jesus (and you can't wander in and out of Christ Jesus -- once He bought you you are His!).There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Full circle back: 1 John 1:8-10 while written for the believer's benefit is written ABOUT an unbelieving state prior to the new birth experience. In this way it can be understood to be written to the unbeliever (or to the believer WHEN he was an unbeliever). Jesus is faithful to forgive. Don't forget it. 1 John 3:9 tells us where we, as born again believers, stand with God: He doesn't see our sin -- and if He never sees this sin because He recognizes that Jesus paid for it, then He will never impute it to us. He never counts it against us. We can't lose salvation over it. Jesus only had to pay for it once. Payment was reckoned to it only once. It is gone from us as far as the east is from the west.
Over, done with ... gone!
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Here we go with all of the once saved always saved passages. Our works do not save us yet we will have them and if they are God's works, they will reflect the faith we say we have.
It takes no talent at all to fall away and backside by partaking of the spirit of the world. If we don't keep our hearts (this takes an effort), we can be overcome by stones and thorns just like everyone else. Only one out of four in the example of the sower parable bore good fruit.
No "MAN" can snatch you out of the Father's hand, but like anything else, you can be enticed by lusts just like any other man. Fortunately, God convicts, but you must answer the call or risk falling away. I did that for over a decade and I loved God with all of my heart. I got involved with the wrong woman (a "good" woman). If we do not forsake all else, we are not worthy of the kingdom.
If Abraham didn't offer up Isaac, we wouldn't be reading about him being the friend of God. He was His friend because He obeyed His voice and we are all called to do the same. Everyone in the faith hall of fame in Hebrews 12 might not have done what they did. They had to choose just like we do. Everyone must choose the Lordship of Jesus every hour of every day. It's not over by a long shot. We have a race to run and we must deny our flesh and die daily.
All of this "true believer" stuff is ridiculous. When God enter into you He draws you to Him. When you're a baby Christian, even if you screw up badly, you have a strong drawing toward Him. After you get older, this is not the case. When you move away from Him, the spirit of the world draws you away. Whether you're a "true believer" or not, you can be pulled away according to your flesh just as easy as a man or woman of the world.
It takes no talent at all to fall away and backside by partaking of the spirit of the world. If we don't keep our hearts (this takes an effort), we can be overcome by stones and thorns just like everyone else. Only one out of four in the example of the sower parable bore good fruit.
No "MAN" can snatch you out of the Father's hand, but like anything else, you can be enticed by lusts just like any other man. Fortunately, God convicts, but you must answer the call or risk falling away. I did that for over a decade and I loved God with all of my heart. I got involved with the wrong woman (a "good" woman). If we do not forsake all else, we are not worthy of the kingdom.
If Abraham didn't offer up Isaac, we wouldn't be reading about him being the friend of God. He was His friend because He obeyed His voice and we are all called to do the same. Everyone in the faith hall of fame in Hebrews 12 might not have done what they did. They had to choose just like we do. Everyone must choose the Lordship of Jesus every hour of every day. It's not over by a long shot. We have a race to run and we must deny our flesh and die daily.
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This passage is SO misunderstood. It is put on a pedestal that is supposed to negate a hundred other scriptures that clearly say we are grossly accountable for the way we conduct our lives. We have 2 natures. You can walk in either one and what you reap is going to based on which nature you sowed to. If you sowed to the flesh (Christian or not), and did not repent, you'll reap corruption. The wages of sin is death. It's death for the unbeliever and it's death for the believer. This will always be.
Sin is always of the devil. If a believer sins, for that time, they are of the devil. We are not supposed to sin.
What if the scripture read like this...?
What if this read "He who walks in the Spirit does not sin, because he abides in Him."
He cannot sin, because he abides in Him. This "born of God" is not just talking about being born again. It's about birthing the Spirit into this world by abiding and walking in Him.
The Word says there is no condemnation for those who walk in the Spirit.
(Not the flesh) You can choose to walk in the flesh every day. Believer or unbeliever.
This is why we cannot take a couple of passages and make it say that we don't sin (on the inside because we were once born again).
We'll always reap what we sow.
There is only no condemnation for the Spirit walker.
Only the repentant are forgiven.
If we don't forgive, we won't be forgiven.
If we deny the Lord, He will deny us.
If we become an enemy of God (by becoming of the world), we'll burn.
Our works don't save us, but we must have works meet for repentance or it's just words.
You are only cleansed of the sin you repent for. If you break fellowship, you must repent to be cleansed. John would not speak of the need for cleansing if we did not need to be cleansed sometime.
Show me a scripture that says your future sins are forgiven? He is the propitiation for sins that are past.
I hate to say it Bob, because I know you're a sincere believer but the Lord is so opposed to this philosophy. I can't begin to tell you how many times the Spirit of God has said that if we deny Him, we deceive ourselves. Jesus must be Lord, calling the shots of our lives. Not just by receiving Him once. It's a day to day thing.
If we go around and say we're clean when we're not, we're deceiving ourselves. If we instruct others to do the same, we're denying the doctrine of God spoken of in 3 John. We MUST abide to have Christ.
We will surely be held accountable for our sins. Their are believers in Hell right now who didn't repent. He'll only let us walk for so long and not do what He wants and then we fall away. Believe me I know.
That's the key. It's VERY easy to walk in the flesh. You must walk in the Spirit or else you cannot please God.
You can wander in and out of walking in the flesh. People do it all of the time. I'm sure their are thousands in my city alone who decide to go drink a six pack instead of watching in prayer. Some will just hang out in front of their TV for 5 hours and then go to bed with their girlfriend. They show up in church on Sunday and they want to love God, but they're walking in their flesh. They're real live believers, but they're snared. Anyone can be snared and all of the angels, now devils did the same thing. They were deceived.
You can walk close to God and it is possible for the enemy to put a hook into you. Stuff happens and we have to choose to forgive or look away and not partake of what's going around us. If we go to the wrong places, the enemy puts a hook into us and if we don't get free, their is a progression and it all bears bad fruit.
That's why it doesn't matter what doctrine you believe. You're going to be judged by your fruit (believer or non believer). Your fruit is always your barometer. If it's bad and you don't repent before you die, you receive the reward of the hypocrite. Those who commit iniquity will depart. The way of the transgessor is destruction and He hates the froward.
We must walk carefully and it is far from over. He does see our sin and if we dare to call ourselves cleansed without repenting... It is bad!
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trulyconverted
Junior Member
Once genuinely saved, always saved (By God's power, not ours - so we bring nothing to it). Believers sin, but we are sensitive to sin and we go to the Lord for forgiveness. Jesus is faithful to forgive.
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ABlessedAnomaly
Teacher of the Word
You and I have gone around on this more than once, AA. You speak more like a Pentecostal than a Word/Faith believer. Such an emphasis on your own abilities instead of what Christ did for you. Tsk. Tsk.
In the above post you said:
AliveAgain said:
Colossians 2:13-14
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
(v13) When you were born, before you ever performed one single sinful act, were you saved or lost (not accounting for God's grace to the accountability of a soul) -- in other words, is a person lost by their own actions or are they lost because of Adam's actions? You were in trespass from your first breath and in need of a Savior.13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
(v14a) What "wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us?" Did an act by us wipe this out? Or did an act by Jesus wipe this out?
(v14b) Jesus took our sin and the penalty that it held against us and "nailed it to the cross." Pray tell: how can He nail this to the cross when you are not even born yet to commit the sin that He is supposed to forgive? ALL of your sins are in the future of the salvific act at the cross.
This is important: your sins were forgiven 2000 years before you were born; your salvation was manifest when you accepted this as Truth, when you accepted Christ as your Savior.
The same is true here: you ALREADY WERE healed of sickness and disease AT THE CROSS (Isaiah 53:4-5); you are healed in the atonement. But you still have aches and pains until you accept this as Truth and believe in faith that Jesus did this for you. Peter tells us that you WERE healed; not that you will be healed when you accept it.
ALL your sins were forgiven when Jesus shed His blood. Then He sat down next to the Father and rested. It has NOTHING to do with your actions, other than to accept Jesus as your Savior.
2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Do you not know that you have been made new in God's eyes? Sure we live in the flesh and we can give way to fleshly desires. And this affects our flesh. Not our spirit: we have been regenerated into a new creation. We have become new. Even Paul tells us:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Romans 7:18
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
So, when I do what I know not to do: is it me or is it sin? Paul is quite clear.18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
So what is the result of sin? It is corruption in our flesh -- sickness, disease, lack, etc. To believe anything else shreds 1 John 3:9 (in fact the whole chapter).
Hebrews 10:12-14
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
Jesus made one sacrifice, then sat down. One sacrifice for sins. Forever. Then He sat down. What does verse 14 tell us: by this one offering "He has perfected forever...."12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
For how long? Forever! Is this only in the past?? It certainly includes the past but it is past, present and future. Forever!
"....perfected forever those who are being sanctified."
Who?? That would be us. Jesus perfected us. Until our next sin?? NO!! God forbid!! He perfected us FOREVER -- past, present and future.
Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of Gods own possession, to the praise of His glory.
When you accept Christ you are changed and you are no longer your own: you are God's own possession. You are a redeemed property. You are His. In other words, you cannot go in and out and in and out and in and out of this status: you belong to Him.13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of Gods own possession, to the praise of His glory.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22
21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Wow. God makes all of us stand firm in Christ. Guess what: that means it is not up to your actions to remain in Christ. You are not your own. You have been sealed. You have a guarantee: God will keep you. You are free to walk in the curse or the blessing and if you choose the former you will walk with sickness and disease, with emotional instability and with sorrow, with lack of peace and prosperity. You will remain saved because once you accept Christ as Savior you become God's property, you become His and He will make you stand firm in Christ.21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
When you understand your position in Christ it truly will set you free.
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trulyconverted
Junior Member
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trulyconverted
Junior Member
"...'we have not sinned'... Is not a past tense. It is present perfect tense.
1 John 3:9 "9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother."
This verse says if you make a practice of sinning. It is a habitual form of sinning. A lifestyle.
I do not make a practice of just taking verses and using them out of context, so I read by books/epistles to understand what is being communicated by the writer.
When I read the passages I declare that I have nothing whatsoever to contribute to my salvation or sanctification. Nothing of me. Its all about Christ. God is the one finishing the good work He started in me.
I don't see the need to rectify 1 John 1 and 1 John 3. They are fine, clear and they complement each other.
Yes, I agree definitely. When we stumble we repent, ask for forgiveness for the particular sin committed (which is by the way not a lifestyle of sinning). Christ is faithful to forgive us believers. We never lose our salvation.
You see, if you think about it, the unbelievers do not belong to Christ, they will face judgement in the end and will pay for their sins - they never got forgiveness of sin because they still have to pay for it. For example, the false believers, whose names are not written in the book of life, even if they confess their sins, there is no forgiveness and in the end they get thrown out.
On the other hand, when the believers sin - they go to Christ and He is faithful to forgive them.
Well just to reiterate - 'we have not sinned' is not in past tense, but present perfect tense.
Agreed, our living is under Christ's righteousness. Our lifestyle should not be one of habitual sinning. But we do sin, but it is not our habit to sin. And it feels abnormal whenever we do. I testify that I am born again by God. And I still sin. I go to Him to cleanse me and He is faithful to forgive.
I don't agree with that. The context of that passage is 'walking in the light'.
No, I do not agree. it looks to me as how it does in the following passages:
1John 1:7-10 "7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
If you look at verse 7 - after "but" that is talking about walking in the light (talking to believers) - then followed by verse 8 continuing on.
Even if we are not faithful, Jesus remains faithful.
1John 3:9 "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."
The verse clearly says we do not 'practice' sinning. I testify, as a believer that I still sin. But it is not my lifestyle. I do not make a habit of it. And I do not like grieving the Holy Spirit. But Jesus has paid for all my sins. Experentially, I do need to come to the Lord for forgiveness because when I do sin, I grieve the Holy Spirit in me and I need to go to the Lord for forgiveness or else things are not right. Just a question - does this not happen to you?
All glory to God!
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