Joseph Prince interpretation of 1 John 1:9

[pk4yahweh]

I can probably speak for most in saying that I am totally enjoying this entire discussion.

I wish I didnt have to work - eat - love my family - sleep - etc ... so then I could sit and really take it all in. Instead Im getting it in pieces.

No need to weigh into the montage - as everyone else - there are parts I agree with and parts Im not in agreement with.

Dan - you and I have pretty similar perspectives on this subject... I sometimes feel you are reading my notes.

Not really buying into Alive_Again's "work verified righteousness". but clearly you do so I won't bring up more into that then has already been said.

Thanks to you all for your input so far - Harry, ABM, and others. Know that there are several of us who are gleaning from the fruit - even though you don't see us with a shovel just yet.

 

[Alive_Again]

Not really buying into Alive_Again's "work verified righteousness". but clearly you do so I won't bring up more into that then has already been said.

I tend to look at it like whether or not we actually need works, we have them because the garden that is our heart will always reflect its condition. We'll always bear fruit and that fruit will tell whether or not you are sound. It's really just following through with your commitment to the Lord by abiding in His love by doing His Word.

I'll show you my faith by my works. The works, if they are of God, are totally by grace because without Him we can do absolutely nothing.

Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
James 5:19-20

As we can err from the truth, which James refers to this person as a sinner (one who sins), and that in repentance, it saves the soul from death, the fruit of sin from the very beginning.

If all this seems difficult, it's really only about accountability, which is present in any relationship or covenant.

 

[Alive_Again]

I thought that I would tuck this in here, as it is 1 John, and this is only a passing observation, not worthy of a thread.

I'm watching the close of the olympics and the world's stage has a bunch of people dressed in white singing: "Imagine there's no heaven. It's easy if you try."

Very sad to me since I came right up behind he and the other Beatles, playing most of their group and solo efforts on both keyboard and guitar, and being quite taken, like so many in the world, with their unique talents.

The world has turned a deaf ear to the lyrics, imagining their is no Heaven. They look upon one who was so fond of an entire generation, his gifted voice, talents, and melody line. All the more now that he was murdered and held by the world in esteem.

His diary indicates that he used to watch Pat Robertson on TV in the Dakota (house), and used to lay prostrate before the TV worshipping the Lord. For weeks he often said "Praise the Lord" and seemed to be in the flow of things, but like so many other "phases", turned his back on the Lord and later claims he was deceived.

If you believed the 1 John scripture as has been argued by some, you'd think Mr. Lennon was saved, and who can say for sure. But if we see him as being of the world, the world mourning him as the word's own, and his subsequent denial of the Lordship of Jesus, this closing song is most tragic and the world is the victim.

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Romans 1:21-22

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
2 Cor 10:5-6

 

[TasManOfGod]

[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse],

You are swearing again AA -shame on you

 

[Alive_Again]

I should have mentioned that this was a quote from the song! A sad song to be sure.

 

[pk4yahweh]

AA - I also feel I must add to my comment that I totally understand where you are coming from and have held your belief as well. Today I find myself a bit more in the middle of the perspective and am freely able to admit there are some of these deeper Truths I just have no clear stance upon.

Appreciate your input into this conversation brother!

 

[MichaelChauncey]

Joseph Prince is making a splash in the WoF community with this error. It seems to have originated with him. But Rhema Bible Training Center (Kenneth Hagin) has not allowed JP's books on the shelf in their book store. We (WoF) do not view confession of sin as a work of the law or a work of the flesh but as a command of grace. Confession means to "speak the same thing" or to agree with God about our sin and about His faithfulness and just Sacrifice through Christ in forgiving it. 1John 1:8 deals with those who are so arrogant and self deceived that they refuse to acknowledge their sin or their need of the savior

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Joseph Prince is making a splash in the WoF community with this error. It seems to have originated with him. But Rhema Bible Training Center (Kenneth Hagin) has not allowed JP's books on the shelf in their book store. We (WoF) do not view confession of sin as a work of the law or a work of the flesh but as a command of grace. Confession means to "speak the same thing" or to agree with God about our sin and about His faithfulness and just Sacrifice through Christ in forgiving it. 1John 1:8 deals with those who are so arrogant and self deceived that they refuse to acknowledge their sin or their need of the savior

Welcome Michael.

First post and you jump right into the middle of a shark tank. I like your spirit!!

A little help here...your post leaves me with an impression that you are a part of Rhema. Are you? How do you know the "not allowed" part? Just wondering.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Probably jumping on this a little late in the discussion but the controversy over 1john1:9 for me was solved when I found that the word here for sin is the word hamartia, this is the noun of the word sin (yep surprised me) the word for verb sin is hamartano and is rarely used in the new testament, mostly by mans concern with his wrong actions which are a result of his hamartia ( noun sin) hamartia would be better translated as sin prison or sin master.

Resultantly due to the fact that I have been purchased out of my prison of sin and I am now a prisoner of righteousness. (also a noun I believe) it is untrue to say that I am a prisoner of sin. It is also impossible confess a wrong action because that would be confessing a verb.

The new testament has about five words to describe sin, one of those words is a verb (hamartano), two are adjective ( they describe a noun, the car is white, white is the adjective and car is the noun) and the other two are nouns. Common noun is hamartia and the other is paraptoma , the word for faults in james 5:16.

This revelation has lead me to read the scriptures in a completely new way and released such freedom in my life as I am learning to divide the word correctly. The revelation that we need to divide the word correctly because we are receiving a word that has two major covenants in it (there are others) if we do not divide it we will be killed by the letter but the Spirit brings life.

Please be gentle with me;first time poster and not a theologian by any stretch of the imagination.

Welcome Nig .

Good post. Digging into the Word is always enlightening and enjoyable!!

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

ok...

Probably jumping on this a little late...

Never too late!

...I found that the word here for sin is the word hamartia, this is the noun of the word sin (yep surprised me) the word for verb sin is hamartano and is rarely used in the new testament,

One has to be careful here, because these words are simply different variants that stem from the same base. For one to have sin (n) he/she must have sinned (v).

hamartia (strong's 266), hamartano (264), hamartema (265) all stem from a common base. In fact hamartia (266) and hamartema (265) both derive from harartano (264) -- which in turn comes from the base meros (3313). The Greek word meros is a word that means "division or share." The word hamartano (and thus hamartia and hamartema) has the meaning of "missing the mark so as not to share in a prize." Literally, sin removes you from your share of righteousness.

The new testament has about five words to describe sin, one of those words is a verb (hamartano), two are adjective ( they describe a noun, the car is white, white is the adjective and car is the noun) and the other two are nouns. Common noun is hamartia and the other is paraptoma , the word for faults in james 5:16.

Again, the adjectives, such as harmartolos, have hamartano (264) as a base. The only differences we have here is whether we are talking about the sin (thing) itself, the act of sinning or a thing that is sinful (Rom 8:3, sinful flesh).

This revelation has lead me to read the scriptures in a completely new way and released such freedom in my life as I am learning to divide the word correctly. The revelation that we need to divide the word correctly because we are receiving a word that has two major covenants in it (there are others) if we do not divide it we will be killed by the letter but the Spirit brings life.

So if you were to rephrase the revelation that this brought to you, how would you say this has affected your walk? My observations above are just that, observations, and not meant to encourage or discourage your understanding here.

Please be gentle with me;first time poster and not a theologian by any stretch of the imagination.

Oh yes, we are always gentle. We use the softest of ropes of tie your hands and ankles before beating....oh, sorry...almost gave away our secrets.

Ok, let's see....page 45....."Yes, we are always gentle with new people. Please come right in. Welcome. So glad to see you here."

Better?




(I'm just being so ornery today!!)

 

[hhodgson]

Oh yes, we are always gentle. We use the softest of ropes of tie your hands and ankles before beating....oh, sorry...almost gave away our secrets.

Ok, let's see....page 45....."Yes, we are always gentle with new people. Please come right in. Welcome. So glad to see you here."

Better?

Well Bob... since you gave out some of our secrets, you mise well tell him about page 46... while yes, for newbies (page 45) we do use the softest of ropes to bind them before beating, however, I think you should tell him that on page 46, that this same soft rope is used also to "hang" second time posters who don't agree with us... Like you say though, we do these things in a "gentle" way...

Greater works...
_____________
Harry

 

[Shepherd1]

Well Bob... since you gave out some of our secrets, you mise well tell him about page 44... while yes, for newbies (page 45) we do use the softest of ropes to bind them before beating, however, I think you should tell him that on page 44, that this same soft rope is used also to "hang" second time posters who don't agree with us... Like you say though, we do these things in a "gentle" way...

Greater works...
_____________
Harry

Of course we wouldn't share with him some of the more gentler 'baptizing techniques' used here by some... What page was that on again?

 

[hhodgson]

Of course we wouldn't share with him some of the more gentler 'baptizing techniques' used here by some... What page was that on again?

Yeah... and if I remember right, that also involved ABlessedMan... For giving away our secrets, he needs to take a long walk on a short pier, maybe then he will "watch what he says to control his tongue.."

Greater works...
_____________
Harry

 

[Shepherd1]

Yeah... and if I remember right, that also involved ABlessedMan... For giving away our secrets, he needs to take a long walk on a short pier, maybe then he will "watch what he says to control his tongue.."

Greater works...
_____________
Harry

Yes, because life and death are in the power of the tongue you know...

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Yeah... and if I remember right, that also involved ABlessedMan... For giving away our secrets, he needs to take a long walk on a short pier, maybe then he will "watch what he says to control his tongue.."

Greater works...
_____________
Harry

 

[splat]

Probably jumping on this a little late in the discussion but the controversy over 1john1:9 for me was solved when I found that the word here for sin is the word hamartia, this is the noun of the word sin (yep surprised me) the word for verb sin is hamartano and is rarely used in the new testament, mostly by mans concern with his wrong actions which are a result of his hamartia ( noun sin) hamartia would be better translated as sin prison or sin master.

Resultantly due to the fact that I have been purchased out of my prison of sin and I am now a prisoner of righteousness. (also a noun I believe) it is untrue to say that I am a prisoner of sin. It is also impossible confess a wrong action because that would be confessing a verb.

The new testament has about five words to describe sin, one of those words is a verb (hamartano), two are adjective ( they describe a noun, the car is white, white is the adjective and car is the noun) and the other two are nouns. Common noun is hamartia and the other is paraptoma , the word for faults in james 5:16.

This revelation has lead me to read the scriptures in a completely new way and released such freedom in my life as I am learning to divide the word correctly. The revelation that we need to divide the word correctly because we are receiving a word that has two major covenants in it (there are others) if we do not divide it we will be killed by the letter but the Spirit brings life.

Please be gentle with me;first time poster and not a theologian by any stretch of the imagination.

Hi Nig,

Thanks for your comment. I think I kinda see where you are coming from here. I personally don't see a problem with "confessing the sin problem" to God and not all our sins individually as to satisfy 1 John 1v9. As some one pointed out, how could we remember them all anyway. I think this would apply to both to those who are becoming a Christian and also those who mess up subsquently. I know I haven't reached a state of sinless perfection yet and don't expect to this side of heaven.

However, an interesting point you make about the greek grammar, will look into that. Thanks for your post.

Blessings
Splat

 

[x141]

You do not have "actual righteousness" while here on earth.

We only enter into these things by faith ...

Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

Adam eating of the tree of his own reasoning told himself he was naked.

When we reason with man our nakedness is revealed, when we reason with God our sins become covered with a covering that is of him.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Luk 17:19 ... thy faith hath made thee whole.

Rom 9:30-32 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith ...

 

[splat]

Because it is a worthy goal. Show me the verse that tells you when you will achieve your own righteousness.

I can show you this in the mean time:

Romans 3:9-12
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written:
“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”[
​

You simply do not have the nature for your own righteousness. Righteousness is imputed to you through Jesus. You are the righteousness of God through Jesus. Not of yourself, but because of what Jesus' sacrifice does for you.

Ok, I've had a chance to think about this. First of all to discuss the Romans verse. Everyone (or most) seem to use that Romans verse as a blanket rule for everyone at all times but isn't it equally possible that it was referring to a time in history where God lacked a righteous person on earth??

Regarding actual righteousness or proposed lack of what do you do with this verse?

Matthew 5:20 NASB "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Did the scribes and Pharisees have any "actual" righteousness at all? Theirs wouldn't have been imputed by faith would it? How can ours surpass if ours is of completely a different kind? (Would seem to be like comparing apples with oranges if you get my meaning.)

Also, I'm not suggesting sinless perfection on this side of heaven. Just it seems as though we have, or could have, some "actual" righteousness from a casual reading of that scripture.

 

[Alive_Again]

Matthew 5:20 NASB "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2 Peter 1:3-4

This is a big key because Jesus didn't just impute righteousness to us. He actually deposited His righteous nature within us. As we yield to Him, we have righteousness flowing through us. That is how we "work" righteousness and bear the fruits of righteousness.

We have a flesh nature too that still suffers from the sin of Adam, but Jesus was the last Adam, and in Him is righteousness, sanctification, wisdom, and redemption. We have everything we need to overcome sin. It's all received in humility by faith. As faith works through love, we continue in the grace that is extended to us.

We choose which nature to walk in, and so our acts sometimes reflect both corruption and incorruption. We groan inwardly for the revelation of Jesus the Son of God within us. We have the Romans 7, "Who can save me from sin?" thing grappling against Romans 8, Jesus Christ now saves me as I walk in the Spirit.

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 7:24-25

This is the corruption by lust (the fruits of yielding to the "body of this death") we're delivered from (as we yield to the Spirit of God).

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:1-2

The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (to those who enter into and walk in this) sets us free from sin and the death/corruption law the body is a slave to.

That is how the tongue is tamed, by His righteous nature, certainly not by our strong will or good intentions! The tongue is an unruly evil no one can tame. No man, that is. Jesus can tame the tongue if we submit to Him.

No one is righteous, no not one. That is the old man of the flesh that all men since Adam have grappled with. But Jesus' righteous nature, first imputed to us by faith, flows out of our spirits unto good works and the fruit of the Spirit (as we yield).

Unless we are living in Him, their is no righteous fruit. This is how we exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees (by partaking of and walking in the gift as received from Jesus the vine).

Received as a gift without any works, simply by faith, and then with fear and trembling, walked out with great peace, love, and joy.

 

[splat]

No one is righteous, no not one. That is the old man of the flesh that all men since Adam have grappled with. But Jesus' righteous nature, first imputed to us by faith, flows out of our spirits unto good works and the fruit of the Spirit (as we yield).

Unless we are living in Him, their is no righteous fruit. This is how we exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees (by partaking of and walking in the gift as received from Jesus the vine).

Received as a gift without any works, simply by faith, and then with fear and trembling, walked out with great peace, love, and joy.

Let me see if I understand you correctly:

Are you saying that the Pharisees had zero righteousness? This seems to set the bar very low in order to exceed their righteousness if that is the case.

I understand that God is not looking for a "legal" righteousness but that which comes from walking in the Spirit.

If "no one is righteous, no not one" is referring to the old man then wouldn't it follow that there was no righteous men anywhere in the old testament? Did they even have a new man under the old covenant?

Why does the new testament call Lot righteous?

2 Peter 2:7 NASB and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men

and there are many other examples of the "righteous" adjective being used to describe certain people in the old testament.

Are you suggesting that the term "righteousness" in the old and new testaments are talking about entirely different things?