John 3:16....Eternal life - When?

[Spiritual Jew]

The religious leaders (seeking to kill Jesus) Jesus spoke this too believed the false ideas exposed in the rich man and lazarus, and Jesus simply and clearly was using their own ideas, their own false beliefs, against them openly for all to see.
Later, grievously, the enemy convinced the unwary that it was sort of a parable revealing truths, but it never was, and it led to extremely wrong beliefs in those who got caught in the enemy's snare.

You have no idea of what you're talking about. Do you deny the existence of hell (Hades)? It's not as if Luke 16:19-31 is the only place where Jesus talked about it. What exactly is written in Luke 16:19-31 that you think are false ideas exposed in Luke 16:19-31?

 

[R.W. Smith]

There is no consciousness after death. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
Our next conscious moment, will be as we stand before God sitting on His Great White Throne, judging everyone who has ever lived. Revelation 20:1-15 Those whose names are Written in the Book of Life, will receive immortality, the rest are made for destruction. Romans 9:22

Prior to the resurrection of Jesus, all the dead were in Sheol, and after the Resurrection the righteous were brought to heaven. The author of Ecclesiastes is writing within the context of all the dead being in Sheol.
In Jewish tradition, Sheol was a shadowy place where the dead awaited judgment. The full revelation of heaven had not yet occurred (Heb 1:1-2). The Jewish concept of Sheol developed over time and can’t be locked into any one Bible verse.
We must also take into account the context of Ecclesiastes. The book is written from a very human-centric point of view. It is written almost as if by a human bystander to the events of life and records the appearance of things rather than their ultimate reality.

- From Ecclesiastes Doesn't Disprove Intercessory Prayer
The Church has always known that our souls are immortal. After Our Lord died on the Cross He descended into "the Limbo of the Fathers" to release them, as they were holy and bound for heaven.
Do protestants REALLY think that after death we disappear into oblivion? The Church has knows of the Four Last Things: death, judgment, heaven or hell. Our souls wait for the Resurrection of the Body. Finally, our souls are reunited with our resurrected bodies!

Dominus tecum, Reg

 

[keras]

Prior to the resurrection of Jesus, all the dead were in Sheol, and after the Resurrection the righteous were brought to heaven..
Quote - RW Smith
This belief is not scriptural. Just an RC fable.

Do protestants REALLY think that after death we disappear into oblivion?

The Bible is clear; The dead know nothing, they 'sleep' in death, until the Judgment; after the Millennium Revelation 20:11-15

Finally, our souls are reunited with our resurrected bodies!

As Eternity is a Spiritual state, our physical bodies will not be resurrected. Those worthy, whose names are Written in the Book of Life, will become Spiritual beings for Eternity.

 

[Aaron112]

This belief is not scriptural. Just an RC fable.

Amen. Sadly, this happens a lot when people haven't even read Scripture and don't know Scripture nor the power of Yahweh.

 

[R.W. Smith]

... our physical bodies will not be resurrected. Those worthy, whose names are Written in the Book of Life, will become Spiritual beings for Eternity.

Are you calling the Apostles liars? Are you calling the very Word of God into doubt?
Was Jesus's resurrection only "spiritual"?
Read Acts 1: 9-11, Jesus, IN HIS PHYSICAL BODY was taken up into heaven. Our physical bodies will occupy the new heaven and the new earth. How?? That's a mystery to me/us. If this is a forum that only believes part of The Truth, then I guess I may have to leave. (Unless God wants me here for some purpose.)
IMPORTANT QUESTION: Do most members recite, or at least believe in, the Apostles Creed?
Dominus vobiscum, Reg

 

[keras]

Are you calling the Apostles liars? Are you calling the very Word of God into doubt?
Was Jesus's resurrection only "spiritual"?
Read Acts 1: 9-11, Jesus, IN HIS PHYSICAL BODY was taken up into heaven. Our physical bodies will occupy the new heaven and the new earth. How?? That's a mystery to me/us. If this is a forum that only believes part of The Truth, then I guess I may have to leave. (Unless God wants me here for some purpose.)
IMPORTANT QUESTION: Do most members recite, or at least believe in, the Apostles Creed?
Dominus vobiscum, Reg

Luke 20:34-36 refutes you.

I know the Apostles Creed. It does say - the resurrection of the body.
But going from Luke 20:36 and other scriptures; it won't be the same body as we have now.

 

[Douggg]

Paul, or anyone else in the Bible; never says that souls do go to heaven.

Yes, Paul did say... to be absent from the body, i.e. dead, to be present with the Lord, i.e. the soul of a Christian goes to heaven where Jesus is.

2Corinthians5:
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight : )

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[keras]

Yes, Paul did say... to be absent from the body, i.e. dead, to be present with the Lord, i.e. the soul of a Christian goes to heaven where Jesus is.

2Corinthians5:
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight : )

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

I admire your determination, but that does not prove your case.

Paul never says WHEN;= being present with the Lord will happen.
Although Christians will be present when Jesus will reign during the Millennium, it isn't until after that and the GWT Judgment, that those worthy will live with God. Revelation 21 & 22

 

[R.W. Smith]

Luke 20:34-36 refutes you.

I know the Apostles Creed. It does say - the resurrection of the body.
But going from Luke 20:36 and other scriptures; it won't be the same body as we have now.

What do you think of Jesus's resurrected body? He was able to enter locked rooms, etc, but His Wounds were still there, He could still eat ...
That is why Catholics take such care when it comes to burials. We know that we are not finished with these bodies that God has created for our souls.
- Dominus tecum, Reg
(PS, if you have any thoughts, I don't know if I should stay in this group, which seems largely protestant. I'd love to share the richness of the Catholic Church that Jesus gave us, but I do not want to get into arguments. We must always do everything out of our love for God.)

 

[Douggg]

Paul never says WHEN;= being present with the Lord will happen.

Paul said (paraphrased) to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

When does a person become absent from the body ?

 

[R.W. Smith]

Paul said (paraphrased) to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

When does a person become absent from the body ?

Becoming absent from one's body is TRUE death. That is when our souls leave our bodies.

(Today we hear the term "brain dead". That is when a person is still alive but the doctors claim they are dead so that they can harvest the organs of a living person. When a soul keeps a person still breathing, etc., they are not yet dead as their soul has not left their body. Philosophers and theologians will tell you that the body "is the form of the soul".)​

Back to the question When does a person become absent from the body? When we die our souls leave our bodies.

At the end of life we all face the FOUR LAST THINGS: DEATH, JUDGEMENT, HEAVEN, OR HELL.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that every spiritual soul “is immortal: It does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection” (CCC 366).

Those who believe that the saints in heaven can't pray for us because they are "dead" are grossly mistaken.
Dominus tecum, Reg

 

[keras]

What do you think of Jesus's resurrected body? He was able to enter locked rooms, etc, but His Wounds were still there, He could still eat

Jesus is a special case. I do not think we Christians will attain those abilities.
Humans will remain as normal mortals until the end of the Millennium. Then, those worthy will become immortal, Spiritual beings.

I don't know if I should stay in this group, which seems largely protestant

It is, but I personally, think that Catholics are just as good; or bad, as all the denominations.

When does a person become absent from the body? When we die our souls leave our bodies.

As Eccl 12:7 says: The body returns to the earth and the spirit/soul returns to God, who gave it.
There is no mention of any kind of life continuing after death.

Those who believe that the saints in heaven can't pray for us because they are "dead" are grossly mistaken.

What 'saints' are those?
There has not been a Judgment yet, how can there be people in heaven?

 

[keras]

Paul said (paraphrased) to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

When does a person become absent from the body ?

Again; how can anybody go to heaven without being Judged first?
Many outwardly righteous and faithful people have died, but have taken with them deep dark secrets, that would preclude that.

Again I say; Paul does not tell us when the dead becomes present with the Lord.
We are told that in Revelation 21:1-7 AFTER the final Judgment.

 

[Douggg]

Again; how can anybody go to heaven without being Judged first?

Paul did not say anything about a Christian being judged. The criteria was (for a Christian) to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

 

[keras]

Paul did not say anything about a Christian being judged. The criteria was (for a Christian) to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

I ask again: How can anybody be present with the Lord, currently in heaven; before being Judged?
Clearly the Judgment will happen at the end of Gods plan for mankind, Rev 20:11-15 states it plainly.

Any teaching of living people being with the Lord before He Returns, is a lie and cannot happen.
For the dead; - it is a blatant rejection of plainly stated scripture, to think they have any role to play before the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium. With the exception of the GT martyrs. Rev 20:4-5

 

[Douggg]

I ask again: How can anybody be present with the Lord, currently in heaven; before being Judged?
Clearly the Judgment will happen at the end of Gods plan for mankind, Rev 20:11-15 states it plainly.

Our souls are redeemed, born again, as soon as we make the sinner's prayer of faith in Jesus's death on the cross as atonement for our sins.

Souls:
Firstly, Paul was speaking about the souls of Christians when absent from the body are present with the Lord. That is a Christian's soul goes to heaven upon death. It is not a resurrection of the body event.

The redemption of their bodies, i.e. resurrection, comes at a later time... either in resurrection/rapture event before the great tribulation, or after the great tribulation in the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints.

Bodies:
Secondly, the Great White Throne Judgement is a resurrection of the body event.

The Great White Throne Judgement involves resurrection of the rest of the dead (Revelation 20:5) - who had not partaken in the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints, nor the resurrection/rapture event before the great tribulation begins.

 

[keras]

Our souls are redeemed, born again, as soon as we make the sinner's prayer of faith in Jesus's death on the cross as atonement for our sins.

Our names, of all believers are Written in the Book of Life. They CAN be erased; many have renounced the Lord subsequent to conversion.
We all must stand before God in Judgment. At the GWT; Rev 20:11-15

The redemption of their bodies, i.e. resurrection, comes at a later time... either in resurrection/rapture event before the great tribulation, or after the great tribulation in the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints.

ONLY the GT martyrs. Your idea of a general rapture/ redemption is false and cannot happen.

Secondly, the Great White Throne Judgement is a resurrection of the body event.

Revelation 20:11-15 does not say all the dead will be in their physical bodies. It will be their souls, which returned to God at their death, that will be presented for Judgment.
The idea of every person who has ever lived - multi billions, being present physically in one place, is impossible. It shows how you fail to think thru these things.

 

[armchairscholar]

Explain how they get there when Revelation 20:11-15 indicates it is the dead who were resurrected being judged at that judgment, and not the living who aren't even physically dead at the time as well.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

I don't see a single mention of anyone still physically alive standing before God at this judgment. The text is what we have to go by. So can you point out in the text above, where it also mentions those who are still physically alive standing in front of God as well? But if you can't that's called adding things to the text not present in the text.

Let me ask this. Someone who is still physically alive, and someone who is physically dead, does this mean to you 2 different things, or does it mean to you the same thing? If the former, how can you argue that the physically alive are also present at the GWTJ being judged, when the text instead indicates it is only the dead being judged there?

BTW, it seems obvious that the ones being judged there are not anyone who has part in the first resurrection, but it is meaning the rest of the dead who do not live again until the thousand years finish first.

I find your focus on the precise text of Revelation 20 refreshing! Throughout church history, many interpreters have struggled with this exact passage.

The distinction you're highlighting between "the dead" and those physically alive at Christ's return was a key point of debate during the early church period. Figures like Justin Martyr and Irenaeus in the 2nd century emphasized a literal reading of this text, supporting the view that only those who had physically died would face this particular judgment.

This interpretation gained traction during the Medieval period when eschatological frameworks became more developed. The concept of separate judgments - one for believers at Christ's return and another for "the dead" at the Great White Throne - emerged as scholars tried to reconcile various Scripture passages.

Your observation about "adding to the text" echoes the hermeneutical principle that became especially important during the Reformation - "sola scriptura" demanded that interpretations be grounded in the actual words of the text rather than tradition or speculation.

You've touched on a fundamental interpretive principle that has guided careful Bible students throughout history - letting the text speak for itself rather than importing assumptions that aren't explicitly stated.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 20:11-15 does not say all the dead will be in their physical bodies. It will be their souls, which returned to God at their death, that will be presented for Judgment.

No, that is not what Jesus said.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So it will not just be departed souls, but departed souls reunited with their resurrected body.

Our names, of all believers are Written in the Book of Life. They CAN be erased; many have renounced the Lord subsequent to conversion.
We all must stand before God in Judgment. At the GWT; Rev 20:11-15

There are persons who can have their names erased by renouncing Jesus as the Lord of their salvation.

But that does not mean all Christians will be subject to appear before the Great White Throne Judgment.

ONLY the GT martyrs. Your idea of a general rapture/ redemption is false and cannot happen.

The resurrection/rapture event of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 is not a "general" event, but is specific to Christians.

The idea of every person who has ever lived - multi billions, being present physically in one place, is impossible. It shows how you fail to think thru these things.

keras, before the Great White Throne Judgment takes place, this present earth and it's heaven will be destroyed. Revelation 20:11

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

The Great White Throne Judgment will take place in the third heaven where God's throne is - so space for the multi billions is not an issue.

 

[keras]

So it will not just be departed souls, but departed souls reunited with their resurrected body.

So it will not just be departed souls, but departed souls reunited with their resurrected body.

This idea cannot be correct, as the sheer volume of matter to reconstitute every body since Adam, is mind boggling!

But that does not mean all Christians will be subject to appear before the Great White Throne Judgment.

Revelation 20:12-13 says;..... everyone according to their deeds.
The Judgment of ALL who have ever lived will take place after the Millennium.

The resurrection/rapture event of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 is not a "general" event, but is specific to Christians.

Yes, specifically for Gods faithful peoples.
But that gathering, Matthew 24:31, is NOT a rapture/ resurrection. It is just a transportation from where they are on the earth to where Jesus will be; on the earth. It will be a spiritual event and we may meet Jesus in the clouds.

Your demands of God to be raptured to heaven, may be viewed by Him as an overly pushy and pretentious belief.
As such a thing is not Prophesied, rapture believers are at serious risk of Judgment as false teachers. James 3:1