John 3:16....Eternal life - When?

[keras]

The soul of a Christian goes to heaven when they die.

Totally unsupported statement.
The Bible never says that anyone will go to live in heaven. Even David lies in his grave to this day. Acts 13:36

The ONLY souls which will be taken to heaven will be the GT martyrs. Rev 20:4

 

[Douggg]

Totally unsupported statement.
The Bible never says that anyone will go to live in heaven. Even David lies in his grave to this day. Acts 13:36

The ONLY souls which will be taken to heaven will be the GT martyrs. Rev 20:4

Acts 13:36 is saying that when David died, his body was buried and remained in the grave to decay (corruption). Differently, Jesus's body was not left to decay in the grave, because God raised Jesus's body back to life, Acts 13:37.

 

[keras]

Acts 13:36 is saying that when David died, his body was buried and remained in the grave to decay (corruption). Differently, Jesus's body was not left to decay in the grave, because God raised Jesus's body back to life, Acts 13:37.

How can you compare David to Jesus?
Jesus said He was the only One to come from heaven, therefore He went back to heaven. John 3:13. NO ONE else.
The theory of a 'rapture to heaven' is a lie and cannot happen.

David and every dead person remain without consciousness until they are raised to stand before God in Judgment; Rev 20:11-15

 

[Douggg]

How can you compare David to Jesus?
Jesus said He was the only One to come from heaven, therefore He went back to heaven. John 3:13. NO ONE else.
The theory of a 'rapture to heaven' is a lie and cannot happen.

David and every dead person remain without consciousness until they are raised to stand before God in Judgment; Rev 20:11-15

Paul was not saying no Christian souls goes to heaven when they die.

Paul was comparing Jesus's body not remaining in the grave like David's body did.

keras, have you been to heaven to know that there are no Christian souls there ?

 

[keras]

Paul was not saying no Christian souls goes to heaven when they die.

Paul, or anyone else in the Bible; never says that souls do go to heaven.

Paul was comparing Jesus's body not remaining in the grave like David's body did.

David is the example. All dead humans remain unconscious in their graves until the Judgment of Rev 20:11-15

keras, have you been to heaven to know that there are no Christian souls there ?

We are here to discuss sensible issues, not to make foolish and provocative comments.

 

[Douggg]

David is the example. All dead humans remain unconscious in their graves until the Judgment of Rev 20:11-15

So Jesus's story of Lazarus and the rich man had no reality basis ? Luke 16:19-31.

In that story, both Lazarus and the rich man had conscious awareness of where their souls were. Lazarus, in the righteous place of the dead, called Abraham's bosom. And the rich man in the unrighteous place of the dead, called hell.

While Jesus's body was in the grave, his soul descended into the place of the dead, preached the gospel, and set the captives free.

Ephesians 4:
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


Since then, Christians when they die, their souls go to heaven.

 

[keras]

So Jesus's story of Lazarus and the rich man had no reality basis ? Luke 16:19-31.

In that story, both Lazarus and the rich man had conscious awareness of where their souls were. Lazarus, in the righteous place of the dead, called Abraham's bosom. And the rich man in the unrighteous place of the dead, called hell.

Yes. that Parable is purely a homily, given as a reminder that this life is our only chance to get right with God.
Thinking it is a story that really happened, shows gullibility and lack of knowledge of Bible verses which prove such a scenario to be impossible.

While Jesus's body was in the grave, his soul descended into the place of the dead, preached the gospel, and set the captives free

You certainly show your lack of Bible knowledge and sloppy interpretations, as 1 Peter 3:19-20 says it was disobedient spirits that Jesus preached to. Where and when does Jesus set captives free?

Since then, Christians when they die, their souls go to heaven.

In Christian concern, I warn you of making assertions. which are not Biblically supported. It could have Eternal consequences.

 

[Douggg]

Yes. that Parable is purely a homily, given as a reminder that this life is our only chance to get right with God.
Thinking it is a story that really happened, shows gullibility and lack of knowledge of Bible verses which prove such a scenario to be impossible.

Jesus did not call it a parable. It was a story based on the reality of soul's being in certain locations after death. One soul, Lazarus's in comfort, in Abraham's bosom. The other soul , that of the rich man, in discomfort in hell, desiring even for a sip of water, asked Abraham to send Lazarus over with a sip of water. But Lazarus could not because of a great gulf separating Abraham's bosom and hell... which no one could cross. Luke 16:19-31

The physical appearance of those souls made them recognizable to each other. i.e recognizable, but transparent, ghost like. Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

We read about what that great gulf separating Lazarus and the rich man was in Ezekiel 28:7-9 and Isaiah 14:15 when the soul of the Antichrist person will be in hell for a short period after being assassinated. He will be killed for claiming to be God. His claim made in 2Thessalonians2:4.

Ezekiel 28:
7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

"to the sides of the pit"......the great gulf separating Lararus and the rich man was the bottomless pit !!!!!

From that information, I made this graphic.... of how the Antichrist becomes the beast.

 

[keras]

From that information, I made this graphic.

Please spare us your fanciful graphics and charts.

The story of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar, cannot be reality, as that would contradict scriptures like Eccl 9:5
You only want it to be real, to suit the false rapture theory. All lies from the father of lies,

 

[Aaron112]

Please spare us your fanciful graphics and charts.

The story of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar, cannot be reality, as that would contradict scriptures like Eccl 9:5
You only want it to be real, to suit the false rapture theory. All lies from the father of lies,

The religious leaders (seeking to kill Jesus) Jesus spoke this too believed the false ideas exposed in the rich man and lazarus, and Jesus simply and clearly was using their own ideas, their own false beliefs, against them openly for all to see.
Later, grievously, the enemy convinced the unwary that it was sort of a parable revealing truths, but it never was, and it led to extremely wrong beliefs in those who got caught in the enemy's snare.

 

[Aaron112]

Thinking it is a story that really happened, shows gullibility and lack of knowledge of Bible verses which prove such a scenario to be impossible.

Yes.
We can thank e.w.bullinger for a complete document revealing the use and purpose of Jesus' telling the <.........> (I forget the typology of this kind e.w.bullinger knew and identified accurately)
and the rich man and lazarus can be realized for what it is, and not glorified wrongly for what it is not.

 

[Douggg]

Please spare us your fanciful graphics and charts.

The story of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar, cannot be reality, as that would contradict scriptures like Eccl 9:5
You only want it to be real, to suit the false rapture theory. All lies from the father of lies,

No, there is no contradiction with Ecclesiastes 9:5. Both Lazarus and the rich man were dead, and thus detached from all the things of the living were experiencing.

 

[keras]

No, there is no contradiction with Ecclesiastes 9:5. Both Lazarus and the rich man were dead, and thus detached from all the things of the living were experiencing.

Did you even read Eccl 9:5? ......the dead know nothing.....
Seems to me; you play fast and loose with scripture, just using what suits your fixed beliefs

 

[Douggg]

Did you even read Eccl 9:5? ......the dead know nothing.....
Seems to me; you play fast and loose with scripture, just using what suits your fixed beliefs

"the dead know nothing" about what is going on with the living, once they leave this world. They are no longer part of it.

The verse is not saying that the souls of the dead have no awareness of where they are after leaving this world.

keras, do you not believe the souls of the wicked go to hell when they die ? Do not body and soul separate upon death ?

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Totally unsupported statement.

Wrong.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

John saw the souls of physically dead believers in heaven.

The Bible never says that anyone will go to live in heaven. Even David lies in his grave to this day. Acts 13:36

His body does, not his soul and spirit. Do you think all there is to human beings is our bodies?

The ONLY souls which will be taken to heaven will be the GT martyrs. Rev 20:4

Is Revelation 6:9-11 in your Bible? That refers to the souls who are in heaven now.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Did you even read Eccl 9:5? ......the dead know nothing.....
Seems to me; you play fast and loose with scripture, just using what suits your fixed beliefs

Are you unable to interpret scripture in context? Did you even read the surrounding verses to see the context of that verse?

Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. 4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

The context here is in relation to things "done under the sun" which refers to things done during this temporary lifetime that we have now. So, what verse 5 is saying is that the dead no longer live "under the sun". Their lives on earth are over and therefore "their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished". They no longer know or do anything on earth that they used to do because they are now dead. That's all it means. It does not mean they have no consciousness and don't know anything where they are, which is either in heaven or hell.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes. that Parable is purely a homily, given as a reminder that this life is our only chance to get right with God.
Thinking it is a story that really happened, shows gullibility and lack of knowledge of Bible verses which prove such a scenario to be impossible.

Wrong. Parables do not contain references to real places and real people as Luke 16:19-31 does. It refers to the place where believers were and calls it "Abraham's bosom" and it also refers to hell (Hades), which is a real place. And it refers to real people like Abraham, Moses, the beggar Lazarus and the rich man. It also contains specific details that would not be included in a parable as it would serve no purpose such as the rich man having five brothers. In a parable, such a detail would be completely pointless, but in this true story it has relevance because the rich man was concerned about the spiritual status of his five brothers.

In Christian concern, I warn you of making assertions. which are not Biblically supported. It could have Eternal consequences.

I warn you of the same thing because of your assertions that are not biblically supported.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

How can you compare David to Jesus?
Jesus said He was the only One to come from heaven, therefore He went back to heaven. John 3:13. NO ONE else.

What He said was true as of the time He said it. But, after that He brought the souls and spirits of dead believers to heaven with Him.

The theory of a 'rapture to heaven' is a lie and cannot happen.

At least you get one thing right, but the rapture is a bodily experience. You seem to not acknowledge the existence of souls and spirits even though every human being has a soul and a spirit. A soul and a spirit cannot be buried in a grave like the body can. Everyone's soul and spirit either goes to heaven or hell when their body dies.

David and every dead person remain without consciousness until they are raised to stand before God in Judgment; Rev 20:11-15

Absolutely wrong. The fact that people have consciousness after bodily death is proven by passages like Luke 16:19-31 and Revelation 6:9-11 and by the fact that Jesus talked to Moses and Elijah at His transfiguration.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Please spare us your fanciful graphics and charts.

The story of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar, cannot be reality, as that would contradict scriptures like Eccl 9:5
You only want it to be real, to suit the false rapture theory. All lies from the father of lies,

His belief about this has nothing to do with the rapture which has to do with people being gathered BODILY to Christ when He comes. He's talking about where people's souls and spirits go when they die and not talking about their bodies. You are allowing your disdain for the pre-trib rapture theory, which I share, to cloud your understanding about what happens to the souls and spirits of people when they die.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes.
We can thank e.w.bullinger for a complete document revealing the use and purpose of Jesus' telling the <.........> (I forget the typology of this kind e.w.bullinger knew and identified accurately)
and the rich man and lazarus can be realized for what it is, and not glorified wrongly for what it is not.

It is not a parable, that's for sure. Parables do not contain references to real people and places as Luke 16:19-31 does.