Jewish Ethnocentrism

[HannibalFlavius]

And as said before, I'm not concerned with whether or not you do - for as stated plainly, it is of no consequence when/if you feel the need to preach to anyone things that aren't really new. And IMHO, it is evident one is more concerned with having validation of their ideas before others they disagree with rather than really wishing to address the whole of what scripture says. If you want to focus on/come after others, that's your choice.....but it'll be addressed.

As it is, there were already several occasions things were stated by yourself others saw to be non-factual - and thankfully, several noted the issue and chose to address it as best as possible, thankfully. I don't really care to make it a habit of going after every single thing I think to be false since it has been noted that it's better to walk away/keep rolling. Nonetheless, that can be difficult for some and thus it's hard to walk away in discussion if one feels compelled to address others.....and unfortunate if and when one addresses things on the basis of false scenarios rather than what they actually said. It's not my goal nor concern to come after you in each/every posting you make - but if I chose to do so, it'd not be terribly difficult to handle. Claiming "Gentiles Have TO BE Ephraim for acceptance" isn't really a new teaching that Messianic Jews haven't encountered before ( ) and globally it has been tackled easily. But I will stick with what St. Paul noted when pointing out the Gentiles being saved by faith in Christ as Abraham also believed (Galatians 3, Romans 4, etc.), the Gospel.

So long as tribal affiliation is the focus, it's no different than others saying Jewish Ethnicity is exalted above all else - it is not truly Yeshua. Thus, the speeches aren't necessary as if something radically new is being said on the issue - but they do give opportunities to address what is passionately said in the name of Christ - and what actually deals with the Words of Christ when it comes to what is or isn't true. So again, harp away if that's your wish - but when it is addressed, it'd be wisdom to stop complaining about whatever you claim not being addressed since that's not historical and what has been said (for the sake of the lurker) will keep being referred to each/every time you choose to make it an issue with obsessing over others you want to hold to your own views.

People can reply to me all day long, and note things, but that does not make them correct.

And no matter how many people you want to name, having others agree with you does not make you right either.

I could start listing people that agree with me, but what would that prove?


You keep listing people like they are some high authority, the end of all discussion.

I don't see it that way.

I see you avoiding, that's all.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

People can reply to me all day long, and note things, but that does not make them correct.

And no matter how many people you want to name, having others agree with you does not make you right either.

I could start listing people that agree with me, but what would that prove?


You keep listing people like they are some high authority, the end of all discussion.

I don't see it that way.

I see you avoiding, that's all.

doh1:

There has already been enough avoiding going on (as well as admitting one doesn't read fully anyhow - showing one doesn't get all the facts before speaking anyhow). I'll go with the lurkers/others noting it's not a problem to give anything further if what has already been given is avoided...

Like I said, when one actually deals with scripture rather than derailing the thread as if it's about you/your issue with others not agreeing with you that Gentiles have to be Ephraim to be accepted before the Lord, cool - but till then, it's more avoid and distract in the realm of appeal to emotion. For no one was concerned with whether others agree or how many can be brought up - as that's Argumentum ad populum (appeal to people). What's noted with others addressing the issue isn't that others are right because of a majority - but rather than things you've tried to bring up aren't simply addressed by me nor is it myself seeing things the way I do alone. Ultimately, what matters is dealing with the Word and in this discussion, what mattered was dealing squarely with scripture (which you haven't done as it concerns Romans 4 on justification/Abraham's faith or Galatians 3 on Gentiles as Children of Abraham amongst other places)...and addressing directly where scripture already notes Gentiles to be of a different priesthood than the Levites.

Talking all day long as you have with "You say this..but I tell you this" is inconsequential - what matters is showing fully from scripture and the APostles what is said.

So as said before, if you're gonna harp, at least deal with scripture - otherwise one already shows they don't care to deal with it where it disagrees with them...avoidance...and that is not a new dynamic nor is it really good argumentation.

Your claims were already addressed - regardless of any protest due to choosing not to read - as noted before:

G

Can a Gentile become a Levite?

Can a Gentile become Israel?

Should a Gentile hope in the promises that are spoken to Gentiles?

Can you answer the first two simple questions?

Gentiles were never shown to be Levites - that role was specifically given to the Levites (as there are other roles similar to it and that go above it - but being a Levite isn't what God ever said of Gentiles) - Brother James Pyles did an excellent presentation on the matter before that the common lurker may find beneficial - as seen in Who is a Priest? Kohein Levi - Congregation Shema Yisrael


I repeat: for the sake of the common lurker wanting to see where each and every question has been asked (in addition to follow up paragraphs/pages by the poster when the answer wasn't what they wanted to hear ON EACH and EVERY scripture brought up), one can go to the following. For as said before here in #48, Others - as before - already spoke in-depth on the issue which the common lurker can go back/see for reference rather than bringing up the entirety of postings others made on the matter before (as discussed IN here, here,here, here, here ...#122 as a basic ..and others such as #180 and #146 /#154). It is nothing new - and others have consistently/repeatedly dealt with each and every prophecy brought up by yourself whenever you wanted to make it an issue - it is zero evidence showing otherwise on the matter when it comes to multiple people (macher, sevengreenbeans, Shimshon in his commentary on the issue, myself, etc.) who have all done so - all of whom have noted the many ways Israel was always multifaceted and that Gentiles were included a part of Israel in various ways ...for I already noted that plainly as did others - pat34lee, in example, received a lot of hassle over it due and I and others defended him on the issue...from the thread entitled Identity Chrisis: Slander..and other places being Who is a Jew? From our older son or here/elsewhere....)....

..Messiah reached out to Gentiles and NEVER expected them at any point to become one of the tribes of Israel - nor said that was a standard. This has been shared directly in #163 with you before - and the same thing goes for the ways the Levitical Priesthood evolved (which was already discussed with you before in #72 / #73 or here in #60 when speaking on priests - what Christ did by going outside of the Levitical priesthood to establish His own priesthood of which all Hebrews and Gentiles could be a part of....more shared in #258 )


....John 15 notes that Jesus calls those following Him no more mere "servants" - but rather having the name and relation on a much deeper level. For it is God that gives them the name, privilege, power, and relation of children, which shall never be cut off by any act of their own, or his, or by men, or devils.... such a name had the Ethiopian eunuch, converted and baptized by Philip in Acts 8:27 after reading the promise of the Messiah in Isaiah 53 and seeing the full extent/impact of the work of the Messiah.

Acts 8:26-40
26 Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Go south to the road—the desert road—that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” 27 So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian[a] eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of the Kandake (which means “queen of the Ethiopians&#8221. This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28 and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the Book of Isaiah the prophet. 29 The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.”

30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

32 This is the passage of Scripture the eunuch was reading:

“He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
and as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
33 In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
Who can speak of his descendants?
For his life was taken from the earth.”​

34 The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 35 Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?” [37] [c] 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. 40 Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.​

For the sake of background, Ethopia was located in Africa south of Egypt. The Eunuch was obviously very dedicated to God because he had traveled such a long distance to worship in Jerusalem. The Jews had contact with Ethopia in ancient days (Psalm 68:31, Jeremiah 38:6-13, Jeremiahs 39:15-18, etc)---and thus, this man may have been a Gentile convert to Judaism. Because he was the treasurer of Ethopia, his conversion brought Christianity into the power structures of another government. This was the beginning of the witness "to the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8, Isaiah 56:3-5). As seen in Acts 8:29-35, Philip found the Ethiopian man reading the scriptures and explained the Gospel by asking the man if he understood what he was reading.....following the Spirit's leading and beginning discussion from where the man was (immersed in the prophecies of Isaiah). In the process of coversation, the man was shown by Phillip how Christ fulfilled Isaiah's prophecies...with the conversation starting with the eunuch begging Phillip to explain a passage of Scripture which he did not understand. Once the task was over, Philip was suddenly transported o a different city.....but God sent his messengers to those who were after Him.

As a eunuch, the Ethopian would have been barred from the inner courts of the temple, which makes his reading "the prophet Isaiah" (v.28) especially significant ...for Isaiah held out the promise that God would grant eunuchs (alongside Gentiles wishing to do so) a heritage "better than sons and daughters" (Isaiah 56:3-5):

Isaiah 56

Let no foreigner who is bound to the Lord say,
“The Lord will surely exclude me from his people.”

I don't really care to make it a habit of going after every single thing I think to be false since it has been noted that it's better to walk away/keep rolling. Nonetheless, that can be difficult for some and thus it's hard to walk away in discussion if one feels compelled to address others.....and unfortunate if and when one addresses things on the basis of false scenarios rather than what they actually said. As said before, this is no different than #41 when I made brief comment about something Marc and I were discussing on UMJC/MJAA and stances they had we agreed to ...and you jumped in as if others were focusing on you (as seen in #42 ..and which I had to address in #50 ). Obvious is the case that anything dealing with others saying "Gentiles aren't really Ephraim" is an issue for you - but such is life...

It's not my goal nor concern to come after you in each/every posting you make - but if I chose to do so, it'd not be terribly difficult to handle. Claiming "Gentiles Have TO BE Ephraim for acceptance" isn't really a new teaching that Messianic Jews haven't encountered before ( ) and globally it has been tackled easily. As I've already said before, John McKee did an excellent job of addressing that (Especially as it concerns the ways Joseph is and isn't connected to Gentiles - as s he noted here and here and here and here in How Should we Approach the Term “Gentile”? | J.K. McKee | Messianic Publications ) - even though he more than agrees with others noting how Gentiles/Jews had many distinctions given to them over history of the Torah and how there were many Gentiles living amongst the Jews who identified fully with them...others having Israelite ancestry in their roots.

And like him, I will stick with what St. Paul noted when pointing out the Gentiles being saved by faith in Christ as Abraham also believed (Galatians 3, Romans 4, etc.), the Gospel.

So long as tribal affiliation is the focus, it's no different than others saying Jewish Ethnicity is exalted above all else - it is not truly Yeshua. Thus, the speeches aren't necessary as if something radically new is being said on the issue - but they do give opportunities to address what is passionately said in the name of Christ - and what actually deals with the Words of Christ when it comes to what is or isn't true..

[/quote]


​

It is what it is , Hannibal.

That said...seriously, the thread is derailed by the side discussion so it'd be best to drop the issue or just start another thread on the matter.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

True

Glad you understood - I do think we have to be careful as to how things go, as some of the arguments seem quite similar to what I've seen when they had Christian gatherings for Native Americans and Caucasians came in demanding to be treated as if they were Native American simply because they either wanted to help or loved the culture - and then forgot on the fact that other Native Americans were deeply bothered seeing how they couldn't even represent their own people after all that was taken from them in the dominant culture that other Caucasians could go to/be represented. It's a form of paternalism - something I'm glad J.K. McKee sought to cover in a balanced manner when it came to Messianic Gentiles who wished to identify with Jewish culture and knowing how to do so without marginalizing Jews in the fellowship or community.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

:

It is what it is , Hannibal.

That said...seriously, the thread is derailed by the side discussion so it'd be best to drop the issue or just start another thread on the matter.

What do you think this thread is about?

What side discussion?

In this requested MJONLY thread?

It is what it is G, but I am long suffering, and I will keep trying to reach you.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

What do you think this thread is about?

What side discussion?

In this requested MJONLY thread?

It is what it is G, but I am long suffering, and I will keep trying to reach you.

Whatever floats your boat, Hannibal - although it'd better to deal with what St. Paul already reached out to Gentiles on when it came to Romans 4 and Galatians 3 on becoming a Child of Abraham by Faith ....not acceptance into Ephraim or Judah. Not a problem repeating the matter as other lurkers have noted to be beneficial since some things take time to really get when caught up in things (II Timothy 2 ) - but till you actually address what has already been said (be it by myself or others), nothing further will be discussed and it'll simply be ignored since it is evident one does not care to do what they ask others for - and as you've yet to deal with what others already asked you,there's no need doing likewise with you if you cannot do the same (Luke 20:1-8). For it'd not be proper...nor a good investment of time.

. Like I said, harp and argue with yourself if that's your choice - it simply does not matter when it goes against what the Apostles and Yeshua said and my focus is on what Brother Marc/Messianic Jew Boy was actually talking about. It is what it is - get over it

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I appreciate your feedback Gxg.

I always read your post in this forum, as you have such a kind, informative, level headed, uplifting posting gift from Him, the the Most High.

As a matter of fact, your post are extremely informative, and I read all of them very attentively.

Thanks for the kind words, Brother Yoseft - I appreciate that you're blessed by what's shared, as I am blessed by you AND others who always give food for thought

I self exam and wonder? Do I share this to authenticate myself, or
does a mixed blood Jewish person wish to share that I am not the only one?

In my Congregation there are many that are not Jewish by linage.

What draws them? Is it a Calling from Him to a chosen few?

Are they like Ruth and deep in their spirit seem compelled or "called" to
this very difficult path and way.

The non believing / no way to accept Yeshua as the Messiah / Jewish
people that mock and criticize vehemently against this way of Judaism
do not accept.

* Note I pray and hope for that outpouring of Revelation
from the Father may come soon to all Jewish people that do not believe.

Right there with ya in the questioning at times on what draws others...

The American Church and other Christian believers mocks and condemns us also in general.
Not all, but many.

Very unfortunate - although that happens when things are done in ignorance, in the same way others in Messianic Judaism mock Christians (including Jewish Christians) as if they are disconnected from Yeshua or somehow less than others or unaware of things they claim that they alone know - with this often being a reaction to the ways they were not accepted for their own stances ....the hate that hate produces is always saddening.

What a very very difficult path for those that are not Jewish by
any birth or bloodline, to join and embrace a Messianic Congregation, and
it's teachings.

For those with a mixed blood, and no prior Jewish upbringing it is also
a hard road to travel.

Very true - but those who are called are able to handle it thankfully.

Shalom to all.

May we all be One in HIM.

Yosef

Shalom, Bro

 

[daq]

Way to go Hannibal; don't let anyone [outside Scripture] tell you how to run your little miqdash-sanctuary-chapel:

Exodus 25:1-9
1. And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2. Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take My offering.
3. And this is the offering which ye shall take of them; gold, and silver, and brass,
4. And blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' hair,
5. And rams' skins dyed red, and badgers' skins, and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim wood,
6. Oil for the light, spices for anointing oil, and for sweet incense,
7. Onyx stones, and stones to be set in the ephod, and in the breastplate.
8. And let them make me a miqdash-sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.
9. According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the Mishkan-Tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

Perhaps the best place to start is with the Parable of the Sower altar of 'adamah:

Exodus 20:18-24
18. And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
19. And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
20. And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
21. And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
22. And the Lord said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
23. Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.
24. An altar of 'adamah thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.

Devarim companion passage:

Deuteronomy 5:27-29
27. Go thou near, and hear all that the Lord our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the Lord our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.
28. And the Lord heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the Lord said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.
29. O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

And don't let any heathens or their doctrines into the sanctuary of your Father!

Just remember Hannibal, although the daughters of their doctrines are lovely and do flourish abundantly; the real "heathen" cannot be seen with the eyes of the flesh. The only genos of heathen that really count are those we are commanded to rule over by destroying their altars, breaking down their images, cutting down their groves, and burning their graven images with fire. Likewise we are to make no covenants or marriages with them, (as in the days of Noah) and those heathen nations are the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than the sons of Israel. They are seven mountains, which are seven heads, and there are seven kings. Don't let anyone tell you that you must stay a heathen for there shall be no Canaanite in the house of your heavenly Father, (Zechariah 14:21, Revelation 21:8).

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Whatever floats your boat, Hannibal - although it'd better to deal with what St. Paul already reached out to Gentiles on when it came to Romans 4 and Galatians 3 on becoming a Child of Abraham by Faith ....not acceptance into Ephraim or Judah. Not a problem repeating the matter as other lurkers have noted to be beneficial since some things take time to really get when caught up in things - but till you actually address what has already been said (be it by myself or others), nothing further will be discussed. Like I said, harp and argue with yourself if that's your choice - my focus is on what Brother Marc/Messianic Jew Boy was actually talking about. It is what it is - get over it

But you haven't said anything.


This is how this goes.

I quote a scripture that I honestly believe.

You obviously do not believe the scripture, and so you rationalize that it could not be true, and you suppose your right because you don't believe what it actually says.

I actually believe what it says and don't rationalize.

Can a Gentile become a Levite.

Of course.


I can show you the scripture again, and then you can quote the same scripture and tell me why it isn't true, but I will still believe it is true.

"I will also take some of them{Gentiles} for priests and for Levites," says the LORD.''

True or not?


That's one question, a yes of no answer would be ok.

Can a Gentile become a Levite?

I believe the scripture, you?


Neither let the foreigner, that hath joined himself to Jehovah, speak, saying, Jehovah will surely separate me from his people; neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

I believe this. you?

For this is what the LORD says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant-- 5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will not be cut off. 6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant-- 7 these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations." 8 The Sovereign LORD declares-- he who gathers the exiles of Israel: "I will gather still others to them besides those already gathered."


I BELIVE THIS SCRIPTURE~~~~~8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


You?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

But you haven't said anything.


This is how this goes.

I quote a scripture that I honestly believe.

You obviously do not believe the scripture, and so you rationalize that it could not be true, and you suppose your right because you don't believe what it actually says.

I actually believe what it says and don't rationalize.

Can a Gentile become a Levite.

Of course.


I can show you the scripture again, and then you can quote the same scripture and tell me why it isn't true,

As said before, it is already obvious one already rationalizes away what they see in scripture since they cannot deal with the basics of what Paul said in Romans 4 (on Abraham and being justified by faith) or Galatians 3 on what it means to be a Child of Abraham by faith. So long as that isn't addressed, it is a matter of selective argumentation - and an issue of one not truly submitting to St. Paul in what he noted.


Stop avoiding Paul and either show you submit to what he noted of Gentiles in Romans 4 and Galatians 3 - or at least be direct on the issue that one doesn't care to handle it. For till then, one has zero business talking on others not believing in scripture since you already avoided it where it easy to do so. So like I said, one can save it - the Apostle is NOT being dealt with and other Messianic Jews have already handled it.

And as it concerns scripture, for the sake of the lurker, this has been covered - as said again:


Your claims were already addressed - regardless of any protest due to choosing not to read - as noted before:

G

Can a Gentile become a Levite?

Can a Gentile become Israel?

Should a Gentile hope in the promises that are spoken to Gentiles?

Can you answer the first two simple questions?

Gentiles were never shown to be Levites - that role was specifically given to the Levites (as there are other roles similar to it and that go above it - but being a Levite isn't what God ever said of Gentiles) - Brother James Pyles did an excellent presentation on the matter before that the common lurker may find beneficial - as seen in Who is a Priest? Kohein Levi - Congregation Shema Yisrael


I repeat: for the sake of the common lurker wanting to see where each and every question has been asked (in addition to follow up paragraphs/pages by the poster when the answer wasn't what they wanted to hear ON EACH and EVERY scripture brought up), one can go to the following. For as said before here in #48, Others - as before - already spoke in-depth on the issue which the common lurker can go back/see for reference rather than bringing up the entirety of postings others made on the matter before (as discussed IN here, here,here, here, here ...#122 as a basic ..and others such as #180 and #146 /#154). It is nothing new - and others have consistently/repeatedly dealt with each and every prophecy brought up by yourself whenever you wanted to make it an issue - it is zero evidence showing otherwise on the matter when it comes to multiple people (macher, sevengreenbeans, Shimshon in his commentary on the issue, myself, etc.) who have all done so - all of whom have noted the many ways Israel was always multifaceted and that Gentiles were included a part of Israel in various ways ...for I already noted that plainly as did others - pat34lee, in example, received a lot of hassle over it due and I and others defended him on the issue...from the thread entitled Identity Chrisis: Slander..and other places being Who is a Jew? From our older son or here/elsewhere....)....

..Messiah reached out to Gentiles and NEVER expected them at any point to become one of the tribes of Israel - nor said that was a standard. This has been shared directly in #163 with you before - and the same thing goes for the ways the Levitical Priesthood evolved (which was already discussed with you before in #72 / #73 or here in #60 when speaking on priests - what Christ did by going outside of the Levitical priesthood to establish His own priesthood of which all Hebrews and Gentiles could be a part of....more shared in #258 )


....John 15 notes that Jesus calls those following Him no more mere "servants" - but rather having the name and relation on a much deeper level. For it is God that gives them the name, privilege, power, and relation of children, which shall never be cut off by any act of their own, or his, or by men, or devils.... such a name had the Ethiopian eunuch, converted and baptized by Philip in Acts 8:27 after reading the promise of the Messiah in Isaiah 53 and seeing the full extent/impact of the work of the Messiah.

Acts 8:26-40
26 Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Go south to the road—the desert road—that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” 27 So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian[a] eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of the Kandake (which means “queen of the Ethiopians”). This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28 and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the Book of Isaiah the prophet. 29 The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.”

30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

32 This is the passage of Scripture the eunuch was reading:

“He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
and as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
33 In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
Who can speak of his descendants?
For his life was taken from the earth.”​

34 The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 35 Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?” [37] [c] 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. 40 Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.​

For the sake of background, Ethopia was located in Africa south of Egypt. The Eunuch was obviously very dedicated to God because he had traveled such a long distance to worship in Jerusalem. The Jews had contact with Ethopia in ancient days (Psalm 68:31, Jeremiah 38:6-13, Jeremiahs 39:15-18, etc)---and thus, this man may have been a Gentile convert to Judaism. Because he was the treasurer of Ethopia, his conversion brought Christianity into the power structures of another government. This was the beginning of the witness "to the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8, Isaiah 56:3-5). As seen in Acts 8:29-35, Philip found the Ethiopian man reading the scriptures and explained the Gospel by asking the man if he understood what he was reading.....following the Spirit's leading and beginning discussion from where the man was (immersed in the prophecies of Isaiah). In the process of coversation, the man was shown by Phillip how Christ fulfilled Isaiah's prophecies...with the conversation starting with the eunuch begging Phillip to explain a passage of Scripture which he did not understand. Once the task was over, Philip was suddenly transported o a different city.....but God sent his messengers to those who were after Him.

As a eunuch, the Ethopian would have been barred from the inner courts of the temple, which makes his reading "the prophet Isaiah" (v.28) especially significant ...for Isaiah held out the promise that God would grant eunuchs (alongside Gentiles wishing to do so) a heritage "better than sons and daughters" (Isaiah 56:3-5):

Isaiah 56

Let no foreigner who is bound to the Lord say,
“The Lord will surely exclude me from his people.”

I don't really care to make it a habit of going after every single thing I think to be false since it has been noted that it's better to walk away/keep rolling. Nonetheless, that can be difficult for some and thus it's hard to walk away in discussion if one feels compelled to address others.....and unfortunate if and when one addresses things on the basis of false scenarios rather than what they actually said. As said before, this is no different than #41 when I made brief comment about something Marc and I were discussing on UMJC/MJAA and stances they had we agreed to ...and you jumped in as if others were focusing on you (as seen in #42 ..and which I had to address in #50 ). Obvious is the case that anything dealing with others saying "Gentiles aren't really Ephraim" is an issue for you - but such is life...

It's not my goal nor concern to come after you in each/every posting you make - but if I chose to do so, it'd not be terribly difficult to handle. Claiming "Gentiles Have TO BE Ephraim for acceptance" isn't really a new teaching that Messianic Jews haven't encountered before ( ) and globally it has been tackled easily. As I've already said before, John McKee did an excellent job of addressing that (Especially as it concerns the ways Joseph is and isn't connected to Gentiles - as s he noted here and here and here and here in How Should we Approach the Term “Gentile”? | J.K. McKee | Messianic Publications ) - even though he more than agrees with others noting how Gentiles/Jews had many distinctions given to them over history of the Torah and how there were many Gentiles living amongst the Jews who identified fully with them...others having Israelite ancestry in their roots.

And like him, I will stick with what St. Paul noted when pointing out the Gentiles being saved by faith in Christ as Abraham also believed (Galatians 3, Romans 4, etc.), the Gospel.

So long as tribal affiliation is the focus, it's no different than others saying Jewish Ethnicity is exalted above all else - it is not truly Yeshua. Thus, the speeches aren't necessary as if something radically new is being said on the issue - but they do give opportunities to address what is passionately said in the name of Christ - and what actually deals with the Words of Christ when it comes to what is or isn't true..

[/quote]


​

It is what it is , Hannibal. So all the accusations are again moot - and more arguments via assertion. Hopefully you can do better than this...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

"I will also take some of them{Gentiles} for priests and for Levites," says the LORD.''

True or not?

As said before, if one's going to quote scripture, one needs to actually quote scripture..

Not make it up as they go along or place into it whatsoever they wish - as the scripture never mentioned Gentiles and that's something the Apostles NEVER advocated nor did Yeshua...

So as said before, one is already doing more with loaded questions since you had presumptions you never proved. Addressing with scripture doesn't go that way if one is to be taken seriously rather than in the same way others did that in St. Paul's day.'

One can do better, Bruh

"I will also take some of them{Gentiles} for priests and for Levites," says the LORD.''

True or not?


That's one question, a yes of no answer would be ok.

When you actually give the scripture (reference and actual verse) accurately rather than trying to doctor it up BEFORE speaking on it, one can talk on questioning. However, as you didn't do that, it was not dealing squarely with the Word as it is - and thus, one is making it up as they go along ......and it's why no one is going to take that seriously.

Isaiah 66:21 does not say Gentiles - although one can try to infer that. As one commentary said best on the situation:

Isaiah 66:21
And I will also take of them for priests
That is, of the Gentiles, the brethren brought as an offering to the Lord; and therefore must respect Gospel times, when the Aaronic priesthood would be changed and cease, which admitted not of Gentiles, nor any of any other tribe in Israel, but the tribe of Levi; nor is this to be understood of the spiritual priesthood common to all believers, ( 1 Peter 2:5 1 Peter 2:9 ) ( Revelation 1:6 ) ( 5:10 ) since of those converted Gentiles brought, not all, but only some of them, would be taken for priests; and therefore can only be interpreted of the ministers of the word, who, in Old Testament language, are called priests, though never in the New Testament; but elders, bishops, overseers, pastors, and teachers. The first preachers of the Gospel were Jews, as the twelve apostles, the seventy disciples, Paul and Barnabas, and others; but when the Gospel was preached, and churches planted in the Gentile world, then priests, or pastors, or elders, were taken out from among them, and ordained over the churches everywhere; and which have continued, more or less, ever since; and will be more abundant in the latter day; whose work and office is not to offer up slain beasts, as the priests of old; but to point to the sacrifice of Christ, to the Lamb of God, that takes away the sins of men; and to teach the knowledge of crucified Christ, and the several doctrines and duties of the Christian religion, as the priests formerly taught the knowledge of the law, ( Malachi 2:7 ) : and for Levites, saith the Lord;
this still more clearly shows that the prophecy belongs to the Gospel dispensation, and is to be understood figuratively and spiritually; for none but those of the tribe of Levi could be taken for Levites in a literal sense; but here Gentiles are said to be taken for such, and design men in Gospel churches. The Levites, as their name signifies, were such as were "joined" to others; they ministered to the priests, and assisted them, and had the charge of the temple, and the vessels of it, to whom deacons now answer; who are helps and assistants to the ministers of the word: their business is to serve tables, and to take care of the secular affairs of the church; so that this is a prophecy of the churches in the latter day being truly organized, and filled with proper officers, as well as with numerous members.

And of course, that also goes back to dealing with the issue of where St. Paul already said in Romans 4 and Galatians 3 with Gentiles being children of Abraham by FAITH - Not Levites.

You've avoided that at all turns - so to talk about the Apostle is pointless. Again, one can do better..

Neither let the foreigner, that hath joined himself to Jehovah, speak, saying, Jehovah will surely separate me from his people; neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

I believe this. you?

For this is what the LORD says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant-- 5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will not be cut off. 6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant-- 7 these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."

Yep - and all of that was already discussed before if one actually read on the issue...AGAIN,
Your claims were already addressed - regardless of any protest due to choosing not to read - as noted before:

G

Can a Gentile become a Levite?

Gentiles were never shown to be Levites - that role was specifically given to the Levites (as there are other roles similar to it and that go above it - but being a Levite isn't what God ever said of Gentiles) - Brother James Pyles did an excellent presentation on the matter before that the common lurker may find beneficial - as seen in Who is a Priest? Kohein Levi - Congregation Shema Yisrael


I repeat: for the sake of the common lurker wanting to see where each and every question has been asked (in addition to follow up paragraphs/pages by the poster when the answer wasn't what they wanted to hear ON EACH and EVERY scripture brought up), one can go to the following. For as said before here in #48, Others - as before - already spoke in-depth on the issue which the common lurker can go back/see for reference rather than bringing up the entirety of postings others made on the matter before (as discussed IN here, here,here, here, here ...#122 as a basic ..and others such as #180 and #146 /#154). It is nothing new - and others have consistently/repeatedly dealt with each and every prophecy brought up by yourself whenever you wanted to make it an issue - it is zero evidence showing otherwise on the matter when it comes to multiple people (macher, sevengreenbeans, Shimshon in his commentary on the issue, myself, etc.) who have all done so - all of whom have noted the many ways Israel was always multifaceted and that Gentiles were included a part of Israel in various ways ...for I already noted that plainly as did others - pat34lee, in example, received a lot of hassle over it due and I and others defended him on the issue...from the thread entitled Identity Chrisis: Slander..and other places being Who is a Jew? From our older son or here/elsewhere....)....

..Messiah reached out to Gentiles and NEVER expected them at any point to become one of the tribes of Israel - nor said that was a standard. This has been shared directly in #163 with you before - and the same thing goes for the ways the Levitical Priesthood evolved (which was already discussed with you before in #72 / #73 or here in #60 when speaking on priests - what Christ did by going outside of the Levitical priesthood to establish His own priesthood of which all Hebrews and Gentiles could be a part of....more shared in #258 )


....John 15 notes that Jesus calls those following Him no more mere "servants" - but rather having the name and relation on a much deeper level. For it is God that gives them the name, privilege, power, and relation of children, which shall never be cut off by any act of their own, or his, or by men, or devils.... such a name had the Ethiopian eunuch, converted and baptized by Philip in Acts 8:27 after reading the promise of the Messiah in Isaiah 53 and seeing the full extent/impact of the work of the Messiah.

Acts 8:26-40
26 Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Go south to the road—the desert road—that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” 27 So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian[a] eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of the Kandake (which means “queen of the Ethiopians&#8221. This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28 and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the Book of Isaiah the prophet. 29 The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.”

30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

32 This is the passage of Scripture the eunuch was reading:

“He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
and as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
33 In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
Who can speak of his descendants?
For his life was taken from the earth.”​

34 The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 35 Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?” [37] [c] 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. 40 Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.​

For the sake of background, Ethopia was located in Africa south of Egypt. The Eunuch was obviously very dedicated to God because he had traveled such a long distance to worship in Jerusalem. The Jews had contact with Ethopia in ancient days (Psalm 68:31, Jeremiah 38:6-13, Jeremiahs 39:15-18, etc)---and thus, this man may have been a Gentile convert to Judaism. Because he was the treasurer of Ethopia, his conversion brought Christianity into the power structures of another government. This was the beginning of the witness "to the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8, Isaiah 56:3-5). As seen in Acts 8:29-35, Philip found the Ethiopian man reading the scriptures and explained the Gospel by asking the man if he understood what he was reading.....following the Spirit's leading and beginning discussion from where the man was (immersed in the prophecies of Isaiah). In the process of coversation, the man was shown by Phillip how Christ fulfilled Isaiah's prophecies...with the conversation starting with the eunuch begging Phillip to explain a passage of Scripture which he did not understand. Once the task was over, Philip was suddenly transported o a different city.....but God sent his messengers to those who were after Him.

As a eunuch, the Ethopian would have been barred from the inner courts of the temple, which makes his reading "the prophet Isaiah" (v.28) especially significant ...for Isaiah held out the promise that God would grant eunuchs (alongside Gentiles wishing to do so) a heritage "better than sons and daughters" (Isaiah 56:3-5):

Isaiah 56

Let no foreigner who is bound to the Lord say,
“The Lord will surely exclude me from his people.”

It's not my goal nor concern to come after you in each/every posting you make - but if I chose to do so, it'd not be terribly difficult to handle. Claiming "Gentiles Have TO BE Ephraim for acceptance" isn't really a new teaching that Messianic Jews haven't encountered before ( ) and globally it has been tackled easily.

[/quote]


​

__________________

 

[Gxg (G²)]

For this is what the LORD says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant-- 5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will not be cut off. 6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant-- 7 these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations." 8 The Sovereign LORD declares-- he who gathers the exiles of Israel: "I will gather still others to them besides those already gathered."


I BELIVE THIS SCRIPTURE~~~~~8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


You?

As said before, this was already covered - but of course, it is the case that it was avoided. For nd much of what St. Paul as well as St.Peter and others noted has not been dealt with at all when you bring up the arguments you did .....this also being an issue when it comes to avoiding those leaders in the Early Church who spoke on the issue. And on the issue, as another noted best elsewhere in Berith Road: The Participation of Gentiles in the New Covenant (for excerpt):

I have been asked a question about how Gentiles can be viewed as participating in the new covenant given that Jer 31:31–33, the key new covenant prophecy in the Old Testament, only mentions God making this new covenant with Israel.

It is true that the members of the new covenant in Jer 31:31–33 are God and Israel, and that the Gentiles are not mentioned in these verses. But Jer 31:31–33 is not the only place in the Hebrew Bible that talks about the new covenant. Basically any prophecy in the Old Testament that talks about events belonging to the time of the eschatological restoration of God’s people is a prophecy of the new covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31–33 needs to be read in the light of the total picture of all of the other Old Testament prophecies that speak about the new covenant; and when we do that, we can see fairly clearly that the Hebrew prophets taught that Gentiles would participate on ultimately an equal footing with Israelites in what God was going to do as part of the future restoration of God’s people.

Some examples (by no means exhaustive):

In Deut 32:21 Moses prophecies that following the covenantal rebellion of Israel, God will make unfaithful Israel jealous “with those who are no people,” that Israel would be provoked to anger by “a foolish nation.” In other words, the calling of the Gentiles to be God’s people would play a part in making disobedient Israel realize what she had forfeited. The Apostle Paul notes this verse in Rom 11:11, arguing that the conversion of the Gentiles will lead in turn to the conversion of Israel.

In Isa 2:1–4 “all the nations” and “many peoples” will come to the exalted Zion to learn and do torah. The idea of Gentiles doing torah implies a change in torah such that it is doable by Gentiles as Gentiles, and not as proselytes to Judaism.

In Isa 11 “the root of Jesse” will be “a signal for the peoples” which will result in the ingathering of “the banished of Israel” and “the dispersed of Judah.”

In Isa 49:5–7 the Messiah will not only restore Israel but bring salvation to the Gentiles, resulting in the submission of Gentile rulers to the Messiah.

In Isa 49:22 Gentiles will bring Israel back to Yahweh. Thus, Gentiles would participate in the eschatological restoration of Israel.

In Isa 51:4–5 it is prophesied that God’s torah and righteousness will go out the the Gentiles.

In Isa 55:1–5 the Messiah calls upon “everyone who thirsts”—note the similarity with Jesus’ language in John 7:37—to come, in order to enter into an everlasting covenant that will function as a fulfillment of the Davidic covenant. As part of this, the Messiah will be “a witness to the peoples” and “a leader and commander for the peoples,” which involves “a nation that you did not know … run[ning] to you.”

Following on from the new covenant of the Messiah spoken of in Isa 55, Isa 56:3, 6 clearly speaks of foreigners who will “join” themselves to Yahweh. They are assured that they will not be separated from “his people,” and they are described as holding fast to God’s covenant. As Gentiles join Israel, the temple will become “a house of prayer for all peoples” (Isa 56:7). For the temple to be a house of prayer for all peoples, this implies that Gentiles would not lose their status as Gentiles as they became members of Israel.

In Isa 66:18–23 “all nations and tongues” will be gathered to see the glory of Yahweh, and from the Messianic sign people will go out declaring the glory of Yahweh such that “all your brothers from all the nations” will be brought as an offering to Yahweh in Jerusalem. The expression all your brothers from all the nations seems to include Gentiles and not just Israelites within its purview. The preaching of the glory of God in the gospel of the Messiah will bring exiled Israel and the nations back to the Lord. At this time of the new heavens and the new earth, “all flesh” will come to worship Yahweh.
​

​

Additionally, as the Messianic Jewish brothers and sisters have well noted at the Rosh Pina Project (for an excerpt):

Well firstly we know that the ekklesia – the community of those saved by trusting in Moshiach - is made up of Jew and Gentile (Colossians 3:11):

Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
​

Whilst we know the Jews who believe in Yeshua belong to the House of Israel, what of the Gentiles?
We know that Messianic Jews are both physically and spiritually descendants of Abraham, but what of those who are not physical descendants of Abraham?

Are they still sons of Abraham in a special, spiritual sense?


We read in Romans 4:9-12:

Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
​

In other words, all believers in the Jewish Messiah Yeshua haMashiach are bnei Avraham- sons of Abraham – through emuna (faith). Just as Orthodox Judaism considers Gentiles who observe the 7 laws of Noah to be spiritually sons of Noah (not in a physical sense, as we are all physically descended from Noah), so too Messianic Judaism should consider Gentile Christians to be spiritually sons of Abraham.
This is the special role of Gentiles within the Messianic movement: to fully live lives which show that following Abraham’s walk is only possible by knowing Yeshua – for Jews and Gentiles alike. The bnei Avraham are exactly who God intended Gentile believers and Christians to be. You don’t need to keep halachah or prove you’re descended from a Lost Tribe – in fact if you’re a Gentile Christian who takes the right approach to Israel from the New Testament, then you already are a bnei Avraham without realising it!
Bnei Avraham are encouraged to share their physical blessings with Jews, as the bnei Avraham share in the Jews’ spiritual blessings (Romans 15:27). Indeed, if you readRomans 11, you see how God intended the bnei Avraham – Jewish and Gentile followers of Yeshua – to complement each other in a chain reaction leading to the full and finalgeula: the redemption of the world.
Paul writes (Romans 11:13-16):

I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
​

​

 

[HannibalFlavius]

As said before, if one's going to quote scripture, one needs to actually quote scripture..

Not make it up as they go along or place into it whatsoever they wish - as the scripture never mentioned Gentiles and that's something the Apostles NEVER advocated nor did Yeshua...

So as said before, one is already doing more with loaded questions since you had presumptions you never proved. Addressing with scripture doesn't go that way if one is to be taken seriously rather than in the same way others did that in St. Paul's day.'

One can do better, Bruh

When you actually give the scripture (reference and actual verse) accurately rather than trying to doctor it up BEFORE speaking on it, one can talk on questioning. However, as you didn't do that, it was not dealing squarely with the Word as it is - and thus, one is making it up as they go along ......and it's why no one is going to take that seriously.

And of course, that also goes back to dealing with the issue of where St. Paul already said in Romans 4 and Galatians 3 with Gentiles being children of Abraham by FAITH - Not Levites.

You've avoided that at all turns - so to talk about the Apostle is pointless. Again, one can do better..


__________________

See, you never answered a single question.


You are right in your belief that we are seen as Abraham, but you stop there, and you omit what Paul says about Isaac and Israel.

You don't want to admit the truth of what it says about Gentiles who live their life in servitude of Jews, who go to work and spend their money helping Jews return to Israel.

Is all that in vain?

Thank God that I have his promise and not yours.


Is it all vain for a gentile to take on the Sabbath that is made for only Jews, or the feast days that speak of our promises?


It occurs to me that a lesson of feast days needs to be taught when trying to remove gentiles from the promises the feast days bring.


Do you even know anything about the promises of Sukkot and Rosh Hashanah?


Are you even aware of the second coming of Jesus for the fall Holy days?


I get the feeling that a lot of people don't know much about the promises of the Sukkot and other Holy days.


Why must ALL GENTILES keep the feast of Tabernacles?

Or is that not true also?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

See, you never answered a single question.


You are right in your belief that we are seen as Abraham, but you stop there, and you omit what Paul says about Isaac and Israel.

And see - sadly, you just committed another inaccuracy/caricature, as well as showed one has zero basis talking on what has or hasn't been dealt with when it was already noted they don't read fully.



So again, if you're going to make things up, one should own up to it rather than thinking others don't catch it when it's apparent they cannot deal with what others have already said on St. Paul and Israel.

As said before, If one wishes to view otherwise, by all means - but it's their choice and nothing based fully in scripture or Christ....and this was already covered and one choosing to speak past that already goes into speak with lack of facts or concern for what others already said. This was already covered earlier in #141 and #138 or #123..Gentiles were never shown to be Levites - that role was specifically given to the Levites (as there are other roles similar to it and that go above it - but being a Levite isn't what God ever said of Gentiles) - Brother James Pyles did an excellent presentation on the matter before that the common lurker may find beneficial - as seen in Who is a Priest? Kohein Levi - Congregation Shema Yisrael


I repeat: for the sake of the common lurker wanting to see where each and every question has been asked (in addition to follow up paragraphs/pages by the poster when the answer wasn't what they wanted to hear ON EACH and EVERY scripture brought up), one can go to the following. For as said before here in #48, Others - as before - already spoke in-depth on the issue which the common lurker can go back/see for reference rather than bringing up the entirety of postings others made on the matter before (as discussed IN here, here,here, here, here ...#122 as a basic ..and others such as #180 and #146 /#154). It is nothing new - and others have consistently/repeatedly dealt with each and every prophecy brought up by yourself whenever you wanted to make it an issue - it is zero evidence showing otherwise on the matter when it comes to multiple people (macher, sevengreenbeans, Shimshon in his commentary on the issue, myself, etc.) who have all done so - all of whom have noted the many ways Israel was always multifaceted and that Gentiles were included a part of Israel in various ways ...for I already noted that plainly as did others - pat34lee, in example, received a lot of hassle over it due and I and others defended him on the issue...from the thread entitled Identity Chrisis: Slander..and other places being Who is a Jew? From our older son or here/elsewhere....)....

Others already addressed the way the Messiah reached out to Gentiles and NEVER expected them at any point to become one of the tribes of Israel - nor said that was a standard. This has been shared directly in #163 with you before - and the same thing goes for the ways the Levitical Priesthood evolved (which was already discussed with you before in #72 / #73 or here in #60 when speaking on priests - what Christ did by going outside of the Levitical priesthood to establish His own priesthood of which all Hebrews and Gentiles could be a part of....more shared in #258 )

Avoiding this is something Messianic Jews have already noted to be problematic - and it's why it'll never fly with what you're trying to place up - in fact it's one of the reasons Messianic Synagogues are careful to keep other Gentiles out if they try to put forth those things as you are.

You don't want to admit the truth of what it says about Gentiles who live their life in servitude of Jews, who go to work and spend their money helping Jews return to Israel.

Is all that in vain?

Thank God that I have his promise and not yours.


Is it all vain for a gentile to take on the Sabbath that is made for only Jews, or the feast days that speak of our promises?


It occurs to me that a lesson of feast days needs to be taught when trying to remove gentiles from the promises the feast days bring.


Do you even know anything about the promises of Sukkot and Rosh Hashanah?


Are you even aware of the second coming of Jesus for the fall Holy days?

Appeals to ridicule aren't going to address any arguments as it concerns scripture - if you want to bring up random ad-hominems about Sukkot or Rosh Hashanah, one can do better than just rant on the issue. For others (myself included) have long talked about those Holidays...celebrated them...and noted their importance. Whether or not one chooses to read is another issue entirely - but it is flat falsehood to say others don't celebrate them because you can't read what others have noted on them...


And anyone wishing to see where I've already spoken on here, here, here (as it concerns Sukkot), here (as it concerns Yom Kippur), here (New Years ), and other places. Apart from some things that Dr.Michael Brown (prominent Messianic Jewish scholar) noted here as it concerns the beauty of the Feasts/Celebrating them and things to be cautious of when doing so ), one may wish to consider the minsitry of Maoz Israel since they do many video presentations on the Jewish Holidays and Festivals and how to celebrate them. ..and for more, one can go here Jewish Holidays and Festivals -Maoz Israel - YouTube. Additionally, perhaps these may help some:

• Ariel Ministries: The Feasts of Israel
• THE FEASTS OF ISRAEL - Ariel Ministries
• THE FEASTS OF ISRAEL - Beth Ariel Fellowship
• Hebrew for Christians - Jewish Holidays Pages
• Yeshua Fulfills the Spring Feasts - Return to God
• Reishit Katzir - First Fruits - Hebrew for Christians
• FFOZ ¦ The Weekly eDrash : Keeping the Festivals
• FFOZ ¦ The Weekly eDrash : The LORD's Appointed Times
• Israel, the Church, and the Last Days - Google Books Result
• Does the New Testament Annul the Biblical Appointments? - TNN

It's silly even trying to assume someone disagreeing with you about Gentiles being Ephraim means they don't do things that are rather basic within MJism - but that tends to reflect one already assuming what they hold to is somehow new or revelatory and that it is a matter of others not knowing how to deal with it. That happens when one doesn't really understands what the Promise of God is and this has happened often within Messianic Jewish Synagogues - paticularly when there are others pushing the "Gentiles HAVE TO BE EPHRAIM!!!" mindsets and assuming those not agreeing with don't trust in the promises of the Messiah.

If you want to insult the intelligence of others for not accepting the views you are pushing forth, that's your choice - but it's not a wise one.

Why must ALL GENTILES keep the feast of Tabernacles?

Or is that not true also?
__________________

Already addressed - you are avoiding dealing with answers you don't like....and that's an issue.

 

[daq]

Just remember Hannibal, although the daughters of their doctrines are lovely and do flourish abundantly; the real "heathen" cannot be seen with the eyes of the flesh. The only genos of heathen that really count are those we are commanded to rule over by destroying their altars, breaking down their images, cutting down their groves, and burning their graven images with fire. Likewise we are to make no covenants or marriages with them, (as in the days of Noah) and those heathen nations are the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than the sons of Israel. They are seven mountains, which are seven heads, and there are seven kings. Don't let anyone tell you that you must stay a heathen for there shall be no Canaanite in the house of your heavenly Father, (Zechariah 14:21, Revelation 21:8).

Oh, and since it appears the conversation is now at Romans 11 again:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the heathen be come in, (Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than the sons of Israel). And in this manner shall all Israel be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

It is not "the fullness of the Gentiles" but rather "the fullness of the Heathen" yet one does not need to be able to read Greek to understand this so much as simply reading Romans with a proper "eye" for the details. Likewise, of course, "the fullness of the heathen" is not a good thing, (Jeremiah 31:27, Daniel 7, Hosea 13, Revelation 13&17)

 

[Shema Yisrael]

Oh, and since it appears the conversation is now at Romans 11 again:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the heathen be come in, (Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than the sons of Israel). And in this manner shall all Israel be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

It is not "the fullness of the Gentiles" but rather "the fullness of the Heathen" yet one does not need to be able to read Greek to understand this so much as simply reading Romans with a proper "eye" for the details. Likewise, of course, "the fullness of the heathen" is not a good thing, (Jeremiah 31:27, Daniel 7, Hosea 13, Revelation 13&17)

This makes no sense considering the context of Romans 11:11-24. Which would be that of the gentiles being grafted in.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

When you actually give the scripture (reference and actual verse) accurately rather than trying to doctor it up BEFORE speaking on it, one can talk on questioning. However, as you didn't do that, it was not dealing squarely with the Word as it is - and thus, one is making it up as they go along ......and it's why no one is going to take that seriously.

I inserted the word,'' Gentile'' into a scripture and you accuse me of doctoring the scripture.

Here is the scripture you make the accusation with.

20"Then they shall bring all your brethren from all the nations as a grain offering to the LORD, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. 21"I will also take some of them for priests and for Levites," says the LORD.


Maybe this is where you are in err.


You said I doctored the scripture.

But tell me, if Israel is the fruit being offered, who is offering Israel?


So I inserted the word Gentile, because of the fact it is speaking about a Gentile who offers up the fruit of himself bringing the chosen people to their land by spending their own money and efforts to serve Israel, and by this offering of Israel, they perform the duties of a priest offering people as their fruit.

So if Israel is the offering, then who is the priest making the offering?


Do you want to make the claim that this scripture is not showing a promise to Gentiles who serve Jews?

Do you want to make the claim that it isn't Gentiles being made Levites offering a Israel as their fruit offering?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I inserted the word,'' Gentile'' into a scripture and you accuse me of doctoring the scripture.

Here is the scripture you make the accusation with.

20"Then they shall bring all your brethren from all the nations as a grain offering to the LORD, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. 21"I will also take some of them for priests and for Levites," says the LORD.


Maybe this is where you are in err.

Already addressed that....

Isaiah 66:21 does not say Gentiles - although one can try to infer that. As one commentary said best on the situation:

Isaiah 66:21
And I will also take of them for priests
That is, of the Gentiles, the brethren brought as an offering to the Lord; and therefore must respect Gospel times, when the Aaronic priesthood would be changed and cease, which admitted not of Gentiles, nor any of any other tribe in Israel, but the tribe of Levi; nor is this to be understood of the spiritual priesthood common to all believers, ( 1 Peter 2:5 1 Peter 2:9 ) ( Revelation 1:6 ) ( 5:10 ) since of those converted Gentiles brought, not all, but only some of them, would be taken for priests; and therefore can only be interpreted of the ministers of the word, who, in Old Testament language, are called priests, though never in the New Testament; but elders, bishops, overseers, pastors, and teachers. The first preachers of the Gospel were Jews, as the twelve apostles, the seventy disciples, Paul and Barnabas, and others; but when the Gospel was preached, and churches planted in the Gentile world, then priests, or pastors, or elders, were taken out from among them, and ordained over the churches everywhere; and which have continued, more or less, ever since; and will be more abundant in the latter day; whose work and office is not to offer up slain beasts, as the priests of old; but to point to the sacrifice of Christ, to the Lamb of God, that takes away the sins of men; and to teach the knowledge of crucified Christ, and the several doctrines and duties of the Christian religion, as the priests formerly taught the knowledge of the law, ( Malachi 2:7 ) : and for Levites, saith the Lord;
this still more clearly shows that the prophecy belongs to the Gospel dispensation, and is to be understood figuratively and spiritually; for none but those of the tribe of Levi could be taken for Levites in a literal sense; but here Gentiles are said to be taken for such, and design men in Gospel churches. The Levites, as their name signifies, were such as were "joined" to others; they ministered to the priests, and assisted them, and had the charge of the temple, and the vessels of it, to whom deacons now answer; who are helps and assistants to the ministers of the word: their business is to serve tables, and to take care of the secular affairs of the church; so that this is a prophecy of the churches in the latter day being truly organized, and filled with proper officers, as well as with numerous members.

And of course, that also goes back to dealing with the issue of where St. Paul already said in Romans 4 and Galatians 3 with Gentiles being children of Abraham by FAITH - Not Levites.

You've avoided that at all turns - so to talk about the Apostle is pointless. Again, one can do better..

Back to "ignore"... and the derail continues....

But tell me, if Israel is the fruit being offered, who is offering Israel?


So I inserted the word Gentile, because of the fact it is speaking about a Gentile who offers up the fruit of himself bringing the chosen people to their land by spending their own money and efforts to serve Israel, and by this offering of Israel, they perform the duties of a priest offering people as their fruit.

So if Israel is the offering, then who is the priest making the offering?


Do you want to make the claim that this scripture is not showing a promise to Gentiles who serve Jews?

Do you want to make the claim that it isn't Gentiles being made Levites offering a Israel as their fruit offering?
__________________

Save the false scenarios/loaded questions for another time - as it's a game I don't care to play when it's clear that it is a matter of you responding to a caricature of what you want it to be rather than dealing with what was said - and it was already addressed.

It is not in line with St. Paul in what he noted....

 

[Gxg (G²)]

... considering the context of Romans 11:11-24. Which would be that of the gentiles being grafted in.

Apostles ALWAYS noted when it came to showing how the Gentiles were distinct from the Jews - not having to be seen as "Ephraim" in order to be blessed as Children of Abraham by faith/in God's Israel....per Galatians 3-4. As you know, Paul was concerned with the Gentiles always keeping in mind how Jew and Gentile were united together - with the Gentiles sharing in the Spiritual Blessings of the Jews (as said in #44 ).

Romans 15:8
7 Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. 8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs9 so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written:

“Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles;
​

I will sing hymns to your name.”[c]

​

10 Again, it says,

“Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people.”[d]
​

11 And again,

“Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles,
​

and sing praises to him, all you peoples.”[e]

​

12 And again, Isaiah says,

“The Root of Jesse will spring up,
​

one who will arise to rule over the nations;the Gentiles will hope in him.”[f]

.....13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
​

Paul the Minister to the Gentiles

14 I myself am convinced, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, complete in knowledge and competent to instruct one another. 15 I have written you quite boldly on some points, as if to remind you of them again, because of the grace God gave me 16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

17 Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God. 18 I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done— 19 by the power of signs and wonders, through the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ. 20 It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation. 21 Rather, as it is written:
“Those who were not told about him will see,
and those who have not heard will understand.”[g]

22 This is why I have often been hindered from coming to you

...25 But now I am going to Jerusalem to minister to the saints. 26 For it pleased those from Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are in Jerusalem. 27 It pleased them indeed, and they are their debtors. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.

​

To motivate believers to give to the offering Paul was collecting for the “poor among the saints in Jerusalem” (Romans 15.26), he taught that since the Gentile believers had received spiritual blessings from the Jewish believers in Jerusalem, they owed it to the them to share their material blessings with the same. Jerusalem was a poor city and one must be careful to note that Jews in the Dispersion often sent money to relieve the needs of those in Jerusalem. Christians in Jerusalem (primarily Jewish) suffered particular hardship and Paul and Barnabas, had been involved in an earlier aid project in a time of famine (Acts 11:27-30; 12:25). Paul desired to visit Jerusalem with the gifts that the churches had raised for the Christians there (compare: Gal 2:10; 1 Cor 16:1-4; 2 Cor. 8-9; cf. Acts 24:17).

In light of this context, Paul saw a deeper significance than just loving charity. To Paul the offering was symbolizing the unity of all types of believers - a token of fellowship between Jewish and Gentile believers. It was a duty (Rom 15:27), a solemn obligation of Gentile Christians in view of the privilege they had received in being grafted into God's olive tree (Rom 11:17) - with all of this conforming to the general principle that those who receive spiritual blessings should share their own material blessings (1 Cor 9:3-14; Gal 6:6).

The Gentiles had recieved the Gospel ("spiritual blessings") originally from Jerusalem - as it was from there that the Gospel had disseminated (Acts 1:8, Acts 8, etc.). And if the Gentiles had recieved the Gospel/"spiritual blessings" originally from Jerusalem, surely they would want to offer financial help to the Mother Church in Jerusalem.

For more technical addressment, when it comes to the words, some basic examination of what they mean, the term "Share in in the Jews Spiritual blessings" is interesting. Shared (2841) is koinoneo.. from koinos = that which is in common, belonging to several or of which several are partakers - the verb koinoneo is related to the noun koinonia translated "contribution" in Ro 15:26) means to to share one's possessions, with the implication of some kind of joint participation and mutual interest.

This Greek word is used in a marriage contract where the husband and wife agree to a joint-participation in the necessaries of life. The key idea in the word is that of a partnership, a possessing things in common, a belonging in common to.

On the term "Spirtual blessings", Spiritual (4152) (pneumatikos from pneuma = spirit) relates to the human spirit, as the part of man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ. It refers to the nonmaterial rather than the material part of man. It is used predominately of what belongs to the supernatural world as compared to that which belongs to the natural world. Note that the suffix "-ikos" on the end of an adjective means signifies “-like”. Thus pneumatikos means “belonging to the spirit" or "of the nature of the spirit" and so "pertaining to that which is spiritual". For other places where Pneumatikos is used, it is used 26x in 21verses- Rom. 1:11; 7:14; 15:27; 1 Co. 2:13, 15; 3:1; 9:11; 10:3f; 12:1; 14:1, 37; 15:44, 46; Gal. 6:1; Eph. 1:3; 5:19; 6:12; Col. 1:9; 3:16; 1 Pet. 2:5.


Gentiles are debtors to the Jews - and we owe them so much because "salvation is of the Jews" ( John 4:22). From the authors of the NT (who were mainly Jewish - apart from Luke) to the fact that their God became the one whom the Gentiles served as well.

And thankfully, the Messiah has redeemed the NATIONS in Him by His blood - all who serve Him being a part of His people (even if not considered ethnic Israel) since the Commonwealth of Israel isn't about having to identify as a tribe of Israel. In Yeshua, it's about being His child!!


Revelation has the entire focus throughout being on what the Messiah did - both in judging the nations and in His mercy shown to those whom he redeemed...making one New People for His glory, the Jewish Remnant combined with the Gentile Remnant - both out of the world and ethnic Israel to make the People He desired....and none of that any point had to do with replacing God's love for His people

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
Revelation 1:4-6

Revelation 5:8-Revelation 5
And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
​

Revelation 7:8-10 /Revelation 7

The Great Multitude in White Robes

9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”
​

 

[daq]

This makes no sense considering the context of Romans 11:11-24. Which would be that of the gentiles being grafted in.

Perhaps that is why Paul writes in the opening lines of the first chapter: "I am debtor both to the Greeks and to the Barbarians", (Romans 1:14) so that perhaps the reader will hopefully understand what he means when it comes to "ethnos" in the more critical portions of this particular epistle. The word ethnos is much like goyim in that it is purely up to the context, (and therefore the translators or the reader) as to whether it should be rendered "gentiles", "nations", or "heathen". It is likewise not that "Yerushalaim shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" but rather that "Yerushalaim shall be trodden down of the heathen until the times of the heathen be fulfilled", (Luke 21:24).

Those "times" of Luke 21:24 are clearly defined in the Book of Daniel, (each in his own appointed times).

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Already addressed that....

​

Back to "ignore"... and the derail continues....

Save the false scenarios/loaded questions for another time - as it's a game I don't care to play when it's clear that it is a matter of you responding to a caricature of what you want it to be rather than dealing with what was said - and it was already addressed.

It is not in line with St. Paul in what he noted....

I am a real man and speak my mind as such.

If its a game you don't like playin, then don't play.

I don't mind if you have an opinion, I never have.

You stop at Abraham.

Are gentiles considered the seed of Isaac?



And that's how it will go with each scripture that I show, that shows gentiles being grafted.


Are Gentiles considered the seed of Isaac?


Of course.


But I am certain you have a good explanation why it isn't true.