Jewish Ethnocentrism

HannibalFlavius

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I can see one motivation to why people would say that Gentiles cannot become Israel.


After we are clearly shown in so many ways and having believed what we are shown as Gentiles, somebody insinuates the gentile has an identity crisis.


I understand people who want to keep Gentiles out.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I can see one motivation to why people would say that Gentiles cannot become Israel.


After we are clearly shown in so many ways and having believed what we are shown as Gentiles, somebody insinuates the gentile has an identity crisis.


I can see one motivation for somebody not wanting the truth to be that Gentiles remain gentiles and do not become a part of Israel.
And as said before, identity crisis is often a part of the dynamic of Gentiles trying to insist with Messianic Gentiles or Messianic Jews that Gentiles HAVE to be identified with the 12 tribes in order to be accepted before God. As much as others harp on Jewish Ethnicity being an issue of exaltation in Messianic Synagogues and others elevating it to superiority, there's double-talk when people end up doing just that in claiming to Gentiles "No ...it's not good enough for you to be accepted by faith as it was with Abraham - you have to be part of the 12 tribes!!!" ......and in essence, claim that the work of Christ in salvation/faith opening the way by His sacrifice is not enough if one doesn't have tribal affiliation.

But St. Paul is clear and I will go with Him anyday:


Galatians 3-4

Faith or Works of the Law

3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a] 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c]

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[d] 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

The Law and the Promise

15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.

21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Children of God

23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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a minyan. Only those that are Jewish can perform things. I do think a Messianic synagogue core should be Jewish but this doesn't mean that it should cause separation. If a congregation be it believing or non believing it's not far fetched to be aware that if the majority is non Jewish they want to change things, want to be a full member etc.

Yes it is a Jewish movement and since it is it should remain that way. But I do realize time are changing and non Jews want to be part of a Messianic Jewish synagogue. To me this doesn't cause the separation that some would conclude, it is what it is. My experience though this isn't an issue amongst my non Jewish friends in our congregation. They realize it's a synagogue, it's not even an issue to begin with.
I do think there needs to be consistency on the matter and not many (as it concerns Gentile Messianics) are willing to allow it even though they complain on acceptance.

For many Messianic Jewish synagogues, the goal was to testify to the large and growing number of Jewish people who believe that Yeshua (Hebrew for Jesus) is the promised Jewish Messiah and Savior of the world - and to bring together Jewish and non-Jewish people who have a shared vision for Jewish revival. And, most importantly, to introduce our Jewish brothers and sisters to the Jewish Messiah Yeshua. But if it's a matter of Gentiles trying to always be the ones at the forefront with reaching to Jewish people, that comes off like paternalism - Some of what you said reminded me of things said in earlier conversation elsewhere when it comes to outreach in the community of Jewish people - as seen here:

Fallacy number one:
The Jewish people are not a race.
Just go to Israel and look around. There are Russian Jews, Ethiopian Jews, Oriental Jews, and so on... This has always been so, since the Exodus. The Jewish nation has always been made up of many people groups or races.

Fallacy number two:
The separation in Messianic Synagogues is religion or ceremonial based but is seen and felt as a racial bias (see earlier posts using Black vs White history to make their points) - but race has nothing to do with it, never has, never will. Can't because the Jewish people are not a race.
Gxg (G²);59953828 said:
Wanted to mention earlier that as a black man myself and one who has grown up in both segregated churches and multicultural ones, I must say that the "Black vs White" dynamic was a bit bothersome to me....for it did seem VERY inaccurate on many levels when trying to argue that not treating Gentile as if they're Jewish when they desire to be live Jewishly is akin to saying blacks and whites cannot fellowship together. In my mind, many churches that're predominately black are for multiculturalism so long as the concerns of the black populatuions they're trying to reach are taken into account---and when white members seek to dominante a black church setting in the name of "we're all the same"...to the point that none of the songs are anything except what's sung in white churches and the liturgy is akin to what you'd see in white churches....something's gravely off. The same goes in reverse for black members coming into churches that're predominatly white (or any other ethnic group, for that matter) and saying "we must be the same"/having all of the songs and cultural dynamics consistently become what's seen mainly black churches while denying a true reflection for the majority group in leading when in predominately white areas

Moreover, it can be VERY insulting whenever you have whites come into a church that says it's geared toward black people/black culture (which can be something whites are apart of if they've truly grown up in the culture)--and yet many of the whites "act" black and then get upset when other blacks raise eyebrows at them in wondering "Why are you not glad you're white?" Saw it often growing up where it seemed people were ashamed of being white in a black church...and although being white didn't mean that they were either ignorant of black culture or cold toward it, many felt as if they had to speak/talk black in order to be accepted. In some places, sadly, it was reinforced by other blacks that being white in certain cultural respects was bad...but in MANY places, blacks were trying to be very accepting of whites by letting them know how much they appreciated different cultures---but the whites simply thought they had to try harder.

The same happened with those within black culture when it came to being in predominately white churches--and feeling as if they had to perform simply because they were "black", as if others were expecting them to act a certain way due to seeing a certain aspect of black culture....and then stereotyping people on that basis. When others were blacks in white churches and asked by whites on how to reach out to blacks, it was annoying for them to have whites ignore them when they shared on the vast dynamics of black culture/its variations....and then be told by whites what it REALLY meant to be "black" and have whites tell other blacks that they know how to be black more so than black people simply because they had a heart to "reach black communities." Having others that are indigenious missionaries within their culture is very big....

In a multi-cultural church, the goal is have every tribe and tongue and nation all together worshipping the Lord---and reaching all groups around them if it's within their power...and I'm glad to have been apart of that growing up. At the church I grew up in, known as Liberty Church of Marietta, under Pastor John Ficthner, they literally had to FIGHT FOR BEING MULTI-CULTURAL (and this from a WHITE PASTOR whose congregation was predominately white and HALF LEFT when he started preaching about practicing racial reconcilliation rather than merely theorizing/preaching about it. It truly blessed my mother and I since we had never seen a church truly like that to that degree back in the late 90's.....and it's something that has always been dear to my heart.....and to be honest, annoying when it seems people act as if it's not an issue...............despite the fact that for the couple living in the South and going into a "Waffle House" store and being sneered at for having children of a different race, America is anything but "Color Blind" and over it.


But what made a difference, be it for whites or blacks, was for understanding the cultures of both on BOTH SIDES.

On the series my mother and I first heard from our pastor called "Racial Reconcilliation":



Connecting it with Messianic Judaism, there are many Jewish fellowships where the focus has always been on trying to do outreach to those who are Jewish/wishing to see a Jewish expression of the Messiah. In the same way that it'd be insulting to have whites tell blacks that they can live more "black" than they when it comes to outreach into black communities---while making it out as if being white is a bad thing---the same can be seen when it comes to Jews having Gentiles tell other Jews how they're more "Jewish" than they are in their living and that Jews /Gentiles are the same when Gentiles seek to live Jewish/wish to be "ONE." For oneness doesn't mean CONFORMITY, nor does it mean ignoral of cultural differences...nor does it mean that those who are Jewish are not allowed to lead when it comes to outreach amongst their OWN people. Others can join in when it comes to outreach, but there's a sense of humility when people outside of a culture are humble in asking how other Jews within the culture would respond to seeing Non-Jews being the main face for outreach.

Moreover, many Jewish fellowships want to have Gentiles within who are proudly Gentile because they want to have diversity rather than a Jewish fellowship alone. For the early church had multicultural churches of both Jews and Gentiles---and not every Jewish fellowship that had Jewish leaders was automatically against Gentile leaders who were living Gentile.



On the same token, just as it'd be wrong for Black churches to not want any kind of intergration with whites or assume that whites cannot be apart of black culture despite how varied it is (especially with regards to BIRACIAL individuals/mixed people and whites who grew up within black culture), it is very ugly when Jewish fellowships despise Gentiles who have grown up with Jewish family/friends....and say they have no right to outreach amongst those who are Jewish since those Gentiles are essentially God-Fearers like the Gentiles of old whom the Jewish people loved (even though not all of them adhered to all aspects of Judaism..more discussed here and here ). For other Gentiles, they were mixed..and were KEENLY aware of their mixed heritage, just as many Jews have been today when seeing Gentile culture comes up ( #11 ,#21 ,#40 , and #56 ).

Many Gentiles who are like Ruth need to be accepted into the fellowship as they support Jewish believers in their heart for outreach amongst other Jews....knowing how many Jews came to faith because they saw Gentiles who truly had a love for Jewish culture and didn't fit their stereotype that all Gentiles were either ignorant or spiteful of Jewish heritage---and prominence in certain situations.

Moreover, just as both blacks/whites can have stereotypes of the cultures of one another and yet have no idea of the variations of both within the camp (more discussed here , here, here , here, here and #208 ), so it can be the case that many Jewish fellowships can be for outreach amongst others in the Jewish community...and yet be GREATLY unaware of the many Jewish individuals/communities that would not feel comfortable in their midsts when seeing Gentiles who were not treated as brothers/sisters or allowed to be in leadership of any kind. For many Jews grew up tired of Judaism in certain circles where Gentiles friends/family were treated as if they AUTOMATICALLY had nothing to offer to Jews simply because they were Gentile. There's no need nor room for that, for the Lord was not only the Lord of the Jewish people...but of all people. More was discussed elsewhere on the matter, as seen here in #46, here and here in #208

In the Book of Acts, we see the first Christian churches coming to terms with this very issue even though ethnic and theological issues were intertwined in that context.

There were Greek-speaking widows/Hellenized Jews who felt that they were being treated as outsiders and not being given a fair shake. For those Jews, it was if they were being treated as "second-class" simply because they were not "Jewish" enough for the Jews who were not really connected with Greek/Gentile culture. This is what minorities often feel and oftentimes with good reason. The widows’ concerns were immediately addressed (Acts 6:1-3). And what we also see is how the gospel itself enabled the early Church to overcome its potential for racism. In obedience to Christ (Acts 1:9), it took the gospel to—of all people!—the Samaritans who were religiously deviant and with whom Jews had had uneasy, strained relations for a thousand years even though they were related by blood. And Peter was also to learn personally how hard it is to go beyond one’s own group (Acts 10:9-48).
I view Messianic Judaism as a Jewish form of Christianity.

Christianity, at its most minimal basic, believes the Jesus is God, clothed in human flesh, who came to the earth, lived a perfect life, died for our sin, rose again on the third day. And there is only one way to be saved, by faith alone in Yeshua.

Messianic Judaism teaches the same thing. These are the basic truths of both beliefs and the fundamentals of the faith. A person does not have to be Messianic to be saved.

When Judaism looks at Messianic Judaism and says, the belief in Jesus, as we believe is Christianity, they are right. But most Jewish people do not understand what that means. A Christian is a disciple of Jesus. A Messianic Jew is a disciple of Jesus/Yeshua. Why? Because He is the Jewish Messiah and savior.

Messianic Judaism started with two purposes. One is definitely to share the good news with the Jewish people. The second was to assist Jewish believers with their unique problems and cultural views. Messianic Judaism was a Jewish community of believers when the Jewish community ejected us and tried to deny we even existed. We exist, we are Jewish and we believe in the Jewish Messiah. That made us visible, and undeniable that we exist, and that in itself is making the good news for Jewish people visible.

Prior to the 1990's all Messianic Jews considered themselves also Christian. This denial of Messianic Judaism being Christianity is very very recent, and there has been some papers written about this issue.

Messianic Judaism is primarily an outreach by the Jewish believers to our Jewish people (and Gentiles who worship along side and love the Jewish people).
 
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Messianic Jewboy

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Gxg (G²);65013401 said:
I do think there needs to be consistency on the matter and not many (as it concerns Gentile Messianics) are willing to allow it even though they complain on acceptance.

Can you elaborate?
 
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HannibalFlavius

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Gxg (G²);65013386 said:
And as said before, identity crisis is often a part of the dynamic of Gentiles trying to insist with Messianic Gentiles or Messianic Jews that Gentiles HAVE to be identified with the 12 tribes in order to be accepted before God. As much as others harp on Jewish Ethnicity being an issue of exaltation in Messianic Synagogues and others elevating it to superiority, there's double-talk when people end up doing just that in claiming to Gentiles "No ...it's not good enough for you to be accepted by faith as it was with Abraham - you have to be part of the 12 tribes!!!" ......and in essence, claim that the work of Christ in salvation/faith opening the way by His sacrifice is not enough if one doesn't have tribal affiliation.

But St. Paul is clear and I will go with Him anyday:


Galatians 3-4

Faith or Works of the Law

3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a] 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c]

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[d] 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

The Law and the Promise

15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.

21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Children of God

23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Now see, I wonder why you didn't quote the scriptures about how gentiles are also seen as Israel?

Biased?


Why don't we just go ahead and list all the promises spoken to Ephraim and how those promises of Ephraim are used to show how Gentiles are grafted into Israel?

'' Not my people, become my people,'' is a promise of the restoration of the lost kingdom of Ephraim.

How is it that Paul uses this scripture to show how the Messiah came and united the gentiles of Ephraim with Judah?


WE keep going over Isaiah, and the prophecies foretold about the oppressed land of the lost kingdom of Ephraim and how that land was shown a great light.


Is Israel by the blood?

Should you want a Gentile not to read this?

For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."…


I keep Hearing Abraham and not Isaac, Abraham and not Israel, why?



But how does a gentile become a Levite?


Do you believe this scripture?


And if the scripture is true, then what does blood have to do with anything?

If we as Gentiles are taught that we become Israel, then why so much bias?

I would think that all people are the same to God, but that's just me I suppose.


Then they shall bring all your brethren from all the nations as a grain offering to the LORD, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. 21"I will also take some of them for priests and for Levites," says the LORD.


This scripture shows an evolution of Gentiles being the priests and Israel being the fruits, it evolves.
 
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Now see, I wonder why you didn't quote the scriptures about how gentiles are also seen as Israel?

Biased?

Why don't we just go ahead and list all the promises spoken to Ephraim and how those promises of Ephraim are used to show how Gentiles are grafted into Israel?

Why don't we just go ahead and list all the promises spoken to Ephraim and how those promises of Ephraim are used to show how Gentiles are grafted into Israel?

'' Not my people, become my people,'' is a promise of the restoration of the lost kingdom of Ephraim.

How is it that Paul uses this scripture to show how the Messiah came and united the gentiles of Ephraim with Judah?


WE keep going over Isaiah, and the prophecies foretold about the oppressed land of the lost kingdom of Ephraim and how that land was shown a great light.


Is Israel by the blood?

Should you want a Gentile not to read this?

For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."…


I keep Hearing Abraham and not Isaac, Abraham and not Israel, why?

But how does a gentile become a Levite?

Do you believe this scripture?

And if the scripture is true, then what does blood have to do with anything?

If we as Gentiles are taught that we become Israel, then why so much bias?

I would think that all people are the same to God, but that's just me I suppose.

Then they shall bring all your brethren from all the nations as a grain offering to the LORD, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. 21"I will also take some of them for priests and for Levites," says the LORD.


This scripture shows an evolution of Gentiles being the priests and Israel being the fruits, it evolves.
.
:boredsleep::dontcare:

Hannibal,


As was already said, there's no need looking for validation of what you want others to agree with you on seeing how they already noted they disagreed...and left you be. If one wishes to aggressively pursue the matter with repeats of what has already been mentioned before, that's their choice. But it's nothing new - and to be honest, it's rather rudimentary on certain points so it doesn't seem logical as to why you appear to be trying to teach on the matter as if no one is aware of it because they disagree with you....especially as it concerns talking on the priests/Levites evolving (which was already discussed with you before in #72 / #73 or here in #60 when speaking on priests )

And if wanting to hear yourself preach on the issue, one is free to do so as well. I couldn't care less about the myriad of accusations that others have already pointed out to be rather baseless since they noted opposite - that tends to happen when it's apparent people read what they wish to read...and see what they wish to see.

As it is, claiming "biased?" (from a humorous perspective) is rather biased seeing that one already selectively went past what multiple others said on the issue of Gentiles in connection to Israel....as well as directly choosing to avoid addressing what St. Paul said on the issue of identification via Abraham in Galatians 3 - or Romans 3 thru Romans 4 as well. Unless one has shown they already acknowledged what St. Paul already covered when it comes to the faith Abraham had and how that relates to the Gentiles, one is biased by default since they choose to selectively go for any passages on Israel (as you've done before) and make theological stance that Gentiles HAVE to be Israel for acceptance - and that is incomplete. Sometimes, it's hard to see it when you're doing it...

But what Paul said is plain - If one chooses not to read, that's on them (Proverbs 18:13, Proverbs 18:15, Proverbs 19:2, etc.) - but I really don't care to waste any time with you on the matter so long as it's apparent one investigates what they wish and can only accuse on where it wasn't handled.


As said before here in #48, you've already made your point with folks who disagree - and thus, after they've already stated such and moved on, there's no need trying to come for (or speak to ) them as if you're going to convince otherwise. Seriously, the speeches aren't necessary if trying to convince others of your stance - for it was already addressed. Others - as before - already spoke in-depth on the issue which the common lurker can go back/see for reference rather than bringing up the entirety of postings others made on the matter before (as discussed in previous threads here, here,here, here, here ...#122 as a basic ..and others such as #180 and #146 /#154). It is nothing new - and others have consistently/repeatedly dealt with each and every prophecy brought up by yourself whenever you wanted to make it an issue - it is zero evidence showing otherwise on the matter when it comes to multiple people (macher, sevengreenbeans, Shimshon in his commentary on the issue, myself, etc.) who have all done so - all of whom have noted the many ways Israel was always multifaceted and that Gentiles were included a part of Israel in various ways ...for I already noted that plainly as did others - pat34lee, in example, received a lot of hassle over it due and I and others defended him on the issue...from the thread entitled Identity Chrisis: Slander..and other places being Who is a Jew? From our older son or here/elsewhere....)....

Others already addressed the way the Messiah reached out to Gentiles and NEVER expected them at any point to become one of the tribes of Israel - nor said that was a standard. This has been shared directly in #163 with you before so trying to repeat the issue doesn't mean much.

So if you want a real discussion on the matter, find those that care to do so again - or deal with what was already noted. From here on out, it'll be the same responses (which the common lurker can see for verification on where discussion occurred and have noted before) - simple as that, Bruh. Continue to pursue the matter - but you're pursuing it alone if you want to do so. Shalom
 
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Can you elaborate?
Sure, Bruh..

If you go back, I added in more detail on what I meant when it came to being consistent from the perspective of churches that have a monolithic identity...and how it is realized that there's nothing wrong with having a predominately Hispanic Church in Hispanic communities (and only having teachers who either know Spanish, connect with the community or understand the culture) or an Irish or Jamaican church with the same dynamics - and yet it seems that only with Messianic Jewish synagogues is the issue a matter of Gentiles saying "No - we HAVE to be in all the dominant places of leadership/ministry if it comes to ministry with Jewish people - they have to see us as Jewish!!!".....that seems very similar to the issue of whites going into non-white churches and saying they want to help but then claiming they won't serve under a black pastor and will only be present to assist with outreach to the Black community if all whites who come are prominent in being leaders.

It's not to say whites can't lead in other capacities - but to just assume it's a given because one wants to help is overboard ....people have to earn the right to be heard or listened to.

And when it comes to understanding Paul, who had dealings with predominately JEWISH synagogues and predominately GENTILE churches, it never seemed to be an issue for him if the areas they were in had one ethnic group above another and discussion was focused on how to do outreach to the people in their community. I do appreciate others who've sought to help put St. Paul in the proper perspective - N.T Wright being one of them, as seen here in GOSPEL AND THEOLOGY IN GALATIANS - NT Wright Page and The Letter to the Galatians: Exegesis and Theology. N. T. Wright’s essay on Gal. 3:10-14 in Climax of the Covenant (as mentioned here and here) – this article makes a compelling case for reading these verse in light of Israel’s history rather than taking them in a more abstract, individualistic manner. Paul is dealing with the history of Israel as a corporate entity, and showing how Christ has fulfilled that history. Following Syvia Keesmaat, Wright also demonstrates the prevalency of exile/exodus themes in text, serving as a kind of narrative substructure.
 
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Gxg (G²);65013527 said:
:boredsleep::dontcare:

Hannibal,


As was already said, there's no need looking for validation of what you want others to agree with you on seeing how they already noted they disagreed...and left you be. If one wishes to aggressively pursue the matter with repeats of what has already been mentioned before, that's their choice.

And if wanting to hear yourself preach on the issue, one is free to do so as well. I couldn't care less about the myriad of accusations that others have already pointed out to be rather baseless since they noted opposite - that tends to happen when it's apparent people read what they wish to read...and see what they wish to see.

As it is, claiming "biased?" (from a humorous perspective) is rather biased seeing that one already selectively went past what multiple others said on the issue of Gentiles in connection to Israel....as well as directly choosing to avoid addressing what St. Paul said on the issue of identification via Abraham....what Paul said is plain If one chooses not to read, that's on them (Proverbs 18:13, Proverbs 18:15, Proverbs 19:2, etc.) - but I really don't care to waste any time with you on the matter so long as it's apparent one investigates what they wish and can only accuse on where it wasn't handled.


As said before here in #48, you've already made your point with folks who disagree - and thus, after they've already stated such and moved on, there's no need trying to come for (or speak to ) them as if you're going to convince otherwise. Seriously, the speeches aren't necessary if trying to convince others of your stance - for it was already addressed. Others - as before - already spoke in-depth on the issue which the common lurker can go back/see for reference rather than bringing up the entirety of postings others made on the matter before (as discussed in previous threads here, here,here, here, here ...#122 as a basic ..and others such as #180 and #146 /#154). It is nothing new - and others have consistently/repeatedly dealt with each and every prophecy brought up by yourself whenever you wanted to make it an issue - it is zero evidence showing otherwise on the matter when it comes to multiple people (macher, sevengreenbeans, Shimshon in his commentary on the issue, myself, etc.) who have all done so - all of whom have noted the many ways Israel was always multifaceted and that Gentiles were included a part of Israel in various ways ...for I already noted that plainly as did others - pat34lee, in example, received a lot of hassle over it due and I and others defended him on the issue...from the thread entitled Identity Chrisis: Slander..and other places being Who is a Jew? From our older son or here/elsewhere....)....

Others already addressed the way the Messiah reached out to Gentiles and NEVER expected them at any point to become one of the tribes of Israel - nor said that was a standard. This has been shared directly in #163 with you before so trying to repeat the issue doesn't mean much.

So if you want a real discussion on the matter, find those that care to do so again - or deal with what was already noted. From here on out, it'll be the same responses (which the common lurker can see for verification on where discussion occurred and have noted before) - simple as that, Bruh. Continue to pursue the matter - but you're pursuing it alone if you want to do so. Shalom

I never read all that stuff you put, I never do.

I reply to what people write personally, I don't gather a whole list trying to prove that I have somehow already won a debate like you.


I ask a few question and reply, but you tend to go and gather a bunch of stuff, seemingly to avoid any of the questions I ask.

Can a Gentile become a Levite?

It's a simple, yes or no question.

Can a Gentile become Israel?

Its a simple, yes or no question.

The answers have to be,'' Yes.''


Scripture says so, I have listed the scripture.


But then it is insinuated that I have an identity crisis like I am a wanna be something with no scripture to back it up.



I list promises spoken about the restoration of Ephraim, and they are clear promises used in the New Testament, I did not write them.
 
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HannibalFlavius

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Yes, Levite are of a certain parentage, however Ruth became a Jew just by making a declaration which for some reason isn't good enough to day to join Israel.


The reason I go out trying to fulfill this scripture.

Not that I will be made a Levite, but its the natural order of things evolving.


Either way, this scripture shows Gentiles being appointed for Priests and Levites.



Then they shall bring all your brethren from all the nations as a grain offering to the LORD, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. 21"I will also take some of them for priests and for Levites," says the LORD.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I never read all that stuff you put, I never do.

I reply to what people write personally, I don't gather a whole list trying to prove that I have somehow already won a debate like you.


I ask a few question and reply, but you tend to go and gather a bunch of stuff, seemingly to avoid any of the questions I ask.

Can a Gentile become a Levite?

It's a simple, yes or no question.

Can a Gentile become Israel?

Its a simple, yes or no question.

The answers have to be,'' Yes.''


Scripture says so, I have listed the scripture.


But then it is insinuated that I have an identity crisis like I am a wanna be something with no scripture to back it up.



I list promises spoken about the restoration of Ephraim, and they are clear promises used in the New Testament, I did not write them.
Not really concerned with whether or not you read what I have written - the same has been done with others you also chose to avoid reading as well (as they noted - in addition to noting where they already read/agreed and supported what I wrote as I did with them) - and it is inconsequential as to whether or not one chooses to read if one claims something wasn't dealt with...in the same way that it's rather pointless for one to claim President Bush beat people up and makes claims on the matter - and yet when others address comprehensively (point for point) where that was never the case, the best one can do is say "I never read what's said - you just want to win!!!"......that's appeal to emotion as well as appeal to ridicule and will never do.

As said elsewhere, only you have assumed others are concerned with "winning" or who "won a debate" - but that's a petty motivation that I don't care to have since it's not about "winning" ...it's about facts and it's about what can or cannot be verified. Period.


Claiming others didn't write personally because you disagreed with it is bad argument - and accusation, but it reveals why others don't care to interact with you on certain arguments if the best one can do is resort to assuming others didn't take time to respond. When people spend time (i.e. days, weeks, or months) going over an issue - only for one to ignore that or show plainly they either don't care to deal with what's said or are not able to respond to what's said in the context it was said it - it is prudent to not repeat the matter when someone comes back demanding more interaction since what was already given was left alone ....and if you cannot deal with what has been said, then others are simply investing in a waste of time going thru the matter again, Bruh. Simple as that


Claiming "I ask a few question and reply, but you tend to go and gather a bunch of stuff, seemingly to avoid any of the questions I ask" is inconsistent with actual practice, seeing that the questions you asked are generally loaded questions since EACH and EVERY time they've come up (and others answered them) were always followed up with the same lengthy answers you pushed forward on the issue - and I'm not concerned with dealing with that when it was already covered. If one wants to ask rhetorical questions, that's one thing - but asking questions one is already convinced as it concerns answers is trying to lead a dialogue where one wishes it to go....that's one game I don't care to do.

I already answered your questions as have several others - Gentiles can become connected to Israel - but that doesn't mean Gentiles HAVE to become identified/seen as a part of the 12 tribes in order to be accepted before God. Gentiles can have priestly roles similar to what occurred with the Levites - but that doesn't mean that Gentiles have become "spiritual Levites" when they come to faith in Christ, nor does it mean that the rules for being a Levite changed when it came to Gentiles being accepted. Gentiles (as Romans 2-3 notes) can live out the heart of what God meant for Jews to be even without the Mosaic Torah - but that doesn't mean that God doesn't see Gentiles as distinct or different from Jews nor does it mean Gentiles are called to be "Spiritual Jews" ....and a Gentile can be grafted into Israel/part of the Tree - but that's not the same as saying that Gentiles are now Israel in the same way Hebrews are when it comes to promises...or that Gentiles are automatically sons of Joseph.

When it's apparent one is already reading selectively, it should also be apparent one has no business trying to pursue dialogue with others in accusation if/when they don't even have all the facts (Proverbs 19:2, Proverbs 18:2). Till you actually respond to what was already said to each and every argument you tried to bring up here (or yesterday) from older threads others already tackled, it'll be the same response - but like I said, I really don't care to put up with it. If you want validation of your own words/thoughts, there are plenty of people who'll do so for you - but for people who already noted why they disagreed, it comes off a bit overly-fixated on people to keep trying to bring it up in every conversation they are involved in as if they were talking to you or asking your thoughts......and it comes off like you need others to say "I agree with you" more than what's noted.

But it's nothing new - and to be honest, it's rather rudimentary on certain points so it doesn't seem logical as to why you appear to be trying to teach on the matter as if no one is aware of it because they disagree with you....especially as it concerns talking on the priests/Levites evolving (which was already discussed with you before in #72 / #73 or here in #60 when speaking on priests )

And if wanting to hear yourself preach on the issue, one is free to do so as well. I couldn't care less about the myriad of accusations that others have already pointed out to be rather baseless since they noted opposite - that tends to happen when it's apparent people read what they wish to read...and see what they wish to see.

As it is, claiming "biased?" (from a humorous perspective) is rather biased seeing that one already selectively went past what multiple others said on the issue of Gentiles in connection to Israel....as well as directly choosing to avoid addressing what St. Paul said on the issue of identification via Abraham in Galatians 3 - or Romans 3 thru Romans 4 as well. Unless one has shown they already acknowledged what St. Paul already covered when it comes to the faith Abraham had and how that relates to the Gentiles, one is biased by default since they choose to selectively go for any passages on Israel (as you've done before) and make theological stance that Gentiles HAVE to be Israel for acceptance - and that is incomplete. Sometimes, it's hard to see it when you're doing it...


And for the sake of the common lurker wondering where each and every question you asked has been brought up before - as said before here in #48, you've already made your point with folks who disagree - and thus, after they've already stated such and moved on, there's no need trying to come for (or speak to ) them as if you're going to convince otherwise. Seriously, the speeches aren't necessary if trying to convince others of your stance - for it was already addressed. Others - as before - already spoke in-depth on the issue which the common lurker can go back/see for reference rather than bringing up the entirety of postings others made on the matter before (as discussed in previous threads here, here,here, here, here ...#122 as a basic ..and others such as #180 and #146 /#154). It is nothing new - and others have consistently/repeatedly dealt with each and every prophecy brought up by yourself whenever you wanted to make it an issue - it is zero evidence showing otherwise on the matter when it comes to multiple people (macher, sevengreenbeans, Shimshon in his commentary on the issue, myself, etc.) who have all done so - all of whom have noted the many ways Israel was always multifaceted and that Gentiles were included a part of Israel in various ways ...for I already noted that plainly as did others - pat34lee, in example, received a lot of hassle over it due and I and others defended him on the issue...from the thread entitled Identity Chrisis: Slander..and other places being Who is a Jew? From our older son or here/elsewhere....)....

Others already addressed the way the Messiah reached out to Gentiles and NEVER expected them at any point to become one of the tribes of Israel - nor said that was a standard. This has been shared directly in #163 with you before so trying to repeat the issue doesn't mean much.
 
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Then they shall bring all your brethren from all the nations as a grain offering to the LORD, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. 21"I will also take some of them for priests and for Levites," says the LORD.


If I spend my life believing this scripture, who will tell me not to carry the Jews back to their land?


Who will instruct me not to do and believe this?

Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.

2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.



And if I want to believe in these blessed promises, what am I called?
 
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Gxg (G²);65013790 said:
Not really concerned with whether or not you read what I have written - the same has been done with others you also chose to avoid reading as well (as they noted - in addition to noting where they already read/agreed and supported what I wrote as I did with them) - and it is inconsequential as to whether or not one chooses to read if one claims something wasn't dealt with...in the same way that it's rather pointless for one to claim President Bush beat people up and makes claims on the matter - and yet when others address comprehensively (point for point) where that was never the case, the best one can do is say "I never read what's said - you just want to win!!!"......that's appeal to emotion as well as appeal to ridicule and will never do.

When it's apparent one is already reading selectively, it should also be apparent one has no business trying to pursue dialogue with others in accusation if/when they don't even have all the facts (Proverbs 19:2, Proverbs 18:2).

Can a Gentile become a Levite?

Can a Gentile become Israel?

Should a Gentile hope in the promises that are spoken to Gentiles?

Can you answer the first two simple questions?

If you answer no to these questions, I will put up scripture that contradicts you.
 
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Gotta bulletin for you folks. The priesthood resides with Y'shua. Just as the priesthood changed to the children of Levi from the firstborn, it has reverted to the firstborn, the only begotten Son of Yah. He can make anyone He chooses a priest in His Name. He has been given all power and all authority in Heaven and on earth.

As Daq so astutely pointed out, the order of Melchizedek supersedes the Levitical priesthood as seen here in Psalms 110:

Psalm 110
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
110 (0) A psalm of David:
(1) Adonai says to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies
your footstool.”
2 Adonai will send your powerful scepter
out from Tziyon,
so that you will rule over
your enemies around you.
3 On the day your forces mobilize,
your people willingly offer themselves
in holy splendors from the womb of the dawn;
the dew of your youth is yours.
4 Adonai has sworn it,
and he will never retract —
“You are a cohen forever,
to be compared with Malki-Tzedek.
”
 
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Can a Gentile become a Levite?

Can a Gentile become Israel?

Should a Gentile hope in the promises that are spoken to Gentiles?

Can you answer the first two simple questions?

If you answer no to these questions, I will put up scripture that contradicts you.
:doh1::dontcare:And as said before, it's rather obvious you're more concerned with seeking validation of your views from others who noted they neither agreed nor cared for them than actually focused on seeing what others have said. But no one cares to give you validation - nor is it an issue. Thus, any scripture you wish to post is really more so a matter of posting it for yourself to see - and that's fine.


If you wish to preach to yourself or post whatever scripture you wish that would make you feel as if others you want to listen are listening, you're free to do so - but it is essentially you preaching to yourself. All the questions you asked have been dealt with - that's simple enough - and the fact that you refuse to deal with it shows one is not willing to deal with what they don't wish to agree to. But leading questions generally don't do well for actual discussion if wanting real addressing of the scriptures

Moreover, one doesn't ask loaded/double-barreled questions and assume "Yes" or "No" is the sum of them - that's not dealing with accuracy...so you were already off going into things without addressing things that give basis for the question (such as "Does St. Paul/Scripture note Gentiles become Children of Abraham by Faith according to Romans 3-4 and Galatians 3-4?" or "Does St. Paul note that Gentiles and Jews - seen as Israel - are distinct?" or "Did Yeshua ever claim Gentiles were Israel?"). If you don't do that, as a basic in surveys, you show the survey was incomplete to begin with and not to be taken seriously since it was selective - for you don't ask a question with a false, disputed, or question-begging presupposition...in the same way that asking "Have you stopped beating your wife?" presupposes that you have beaten your wife prior to its asking, as well as that you have a wife (and If you are unmarried, or have never beaten your wife, then the question is loaded).

So one must actually be factual with the questions before choosing to ask them - you've yet to deal with what others already asked you, so there's no need doing likewise with you if you cannot do the same (Luke 20:1-8). For it'd not be proper...

And for the sake of the common lurker wanting to see where each and every question has been asked (in addition to follow up paragraphs/pages by the poster when the answer wasn't what they wanted to hear ON EACH and EVERY scripture brought up), one can go to the following. For as said before here in #48, Others - as before - already spoke in-depth on the issue which the common lurker can go back/see for reference rather than bringing up the entirety of postings others made on the matter before (as discussed in previous threads here, here,here, here, here ...#122 as a basic ..and others such as #180 and #146 /#154). It is nothing new - and others have consistently/repeatedly dealt with each and every prophecy brought up by yourself whenever you wanted to make it an issue - it is zero evidence showing otherwise on the matter when it comes to multiple people (macher, sevengreenbeans, Shimshon in his commentary on the issue, myself, etc.) who have all done so - all of whom have noted the many ways Israel was always multifaceted and that Gentiles were included a part of Israel in various ways ...for I already noted that plainly as did others - pat34lee, in example, received a lot of hassle over it due and I and others defended him on the issue...from the thread entitled Identity Chrisis: Slander..and other places being Who is a Jew? From our older son or here/elsewhere....)....

Others already addressed the way the Messiah reached out to Gentiles and NEVER expected them at any point to become one of the tribes of Israel - nor said that was a standard. This has been shared directly in #163 with you before - and the same thing goes for the ways the Levitical Priesthood evolved (which was already discussed with you before in #72 / #73 or here in #60 when speaking on priests - what Christ did by going outside of the Levitical priesthood to establish His own priesthood of which all Hebrews and Gentiles could be a part of....more shared in #258 )

If wanting to hear yourself preach, by all means ...have at it, Bruh:cool:
 
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Gxg (G²);65013841 said:
And for the sake of the common lurker wanting to see where each and every question has been asked (in addition to follow up paragraphs/pages by the poster when the answer wasn't what they wanted to hear),
But it's nothing new - and to be honest, it's rather rudimentary on certain points so it doesn't seem logical as to why you appear to be trying to teach on the matter as if no one is aware of it because they disagree with you....especially as it concerns talking on the priests/Levites evolving (which was already discussed with you before in #72 / #73 or here in #60 when speaking on priests )

And if wanting to hear yourself preach on the issue, one is free to do so as well. I couldn't care less about the myriad of accusations that others have already pointed out to be rather baseless since they noted opposite - that tends to happen when it's apparent people read what they wish to read...and see what they wish to see.

As it is, claiming "biased?" (from a humorous perspective) is rather biased seeing that one already selectively went past what multiple others said on the issue of Gentiles in connection to Israel....as well as directly choosing to avoid addressing what St. Paul said on the issue of identification via Abraham in Galatians 3 - or Romans 3 thru Romans 4 as well. Unless one has shown they already acknowledged what St. Paul already covered when it comes to the faith Abraham had and how that relates to the Gentiles, one is biased by default since they choose to selectively go for any passages on Israel (as you've done before) and make theological stance that Gentiles HAVE to be Israel for acceptance - and that is incomplete. Sometimes, it's hard to see it when you're doing it...


And for the sake of the common lurker wondering where each and every question you asked has been brought up before - as said before here in #48, you've already made your point with folks who disagree - and thus, after they've already stated such and moved on, there's no need trying to come for (or speak to ) them as if you're going to convince otherwise. Seriously, the speeches aren't necessary if trying to convince others of your stance - for it was already addressed. Others - as before - already spoke in-depth on the issue which the common lurker can go back/see for reference rather than bringing up the entirety of postings others made on the matter before (as discussed in previous threads here, here,here, here, here ...#122 as a basic ..and others such as #180 and #146 /#154). It is nothing new - and others have consistently/repeatedly dealt with each and every prophecy brought up by yourself whenever you wanted to make it an issue - it is zero evidence showing otherwise on the matter when it comes to multiple people (macher, sevengreenbeans, Shimshon in his commentary on the issue, myself, etc.) who have all done so - all of whom have noted the many ways Israel was always multifaceted and that Gentiles were included a part of Israel in various ways ...for I already noted that plainly as did others - pat34lee, in example, received a lot of hassle over it due and I and others defended him on the issue...from the thread entitled Identity Chrisis: Slander..and other places being Who is a Jew? From our older son or here/elsewhere....)....

Others already addressed the way the Messiah reached out to Gentiles and NEVER expected them at any point to become one of the tribes of Israel - nor said that was a standard. This has been shared directly in #163 with you before so trying to repeat the issue doesn't mean much.

Unsolved issues are unsolved issues.

Do you think that just because we have been over this, that I am to remain silent and never to reply again?

Your attitude is always that we have been over it, so why do I keep coming back to the forum expecting to find a real live person to communicate with?


I didn't come to God with the idea of wanted to Be Israel, but I am taught by the New Testament that we Gentiles are grafted into Israel.



If this is wrong, then how in the world could I list scripture that shows a Gentile being found within the inheritance of Israel and given a better name than sons and daughters?

How do I list actual scriptures of how Gentile can become a Jew?


These are not my ideas, again, I can list scriptures SAYING THAT GENTILES CAN BECOME A LEVITE.

I didn't write it, I didn't have an identity crisis and create it, I read it.

And when I read in Romans how Gentiles are made one man with the Jew, I believe it.

When I am shown that I AM A SON OF ISAAC, I believe it.

When I am shown that all Israel is not Israel just because they were born of Israel, and all Abraham is not Abraham just because they were born Abraham, I believe it.

Its not a conspiracy G, They are promises to gentiles.
 
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