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Jewish Ethnocentrism

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Lulav, Feb 5, 2014.

  1. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    :doh1::dontcare:And as said before, it's rather obvious you're more concerned with seeking validation of your views from others who noted they neither agreed nor cared for them than actually focused on seeing what others have said. But no one cares to give you validation - nor is it an issue. Thus, any scripture you wish to post is really more so a matter of posting it for yourself to see - and that's fine. Others already resolved the matter - and whether or not you agreed with the issue is another issue....but that's all it is.

    As it is, you already assumed others were speaking directly to you when that wasn't even the case - I was speaking to Messianic Jewboy /marc and noting how often it has been the case (based on what's said and the testimonies of those who used to do it) that claiming Gentiles HAD to be seen as a tribe of Israel in order for God to accept them was a matter of identity crisis (as noted in #117 ).....in agreement with what he said when it came to Galatians 3-4 and what St. Paul noted on the issue of Gentiles being accepted as Children of Abraham by faith in the Messiah.

    However, you chose to focus in on it as if I was speaking to you - and the same thing occurred before in #41 when I made brief comment about something Marc and I were discussing and you jumped in as if others were focusing on you (as seen in #42 ..and which I had to address in #50 ) - derailing the discussion. In the event it is not clear....please know that how you think or convincing you is not that important to me in the grand scheme of things to have that much focus where everything I write to another must somehow be about you....and that's something I'd suggest you'd respectfully learn to get over if it keeps coming up. I don't really care to talk to you in general nor do I think it's that substantial in what you do share with me - but if you wish to keep coming back as if I was concerned with listening to you, okay.

    There are others you can discuss with if wishing to find agreement - and thus, one needs to actually be accurate in facts before claiming "Your attitude is always that we have been over it, so why do I keep coming back to the forum expecting to find a real live person to communicate with?" - there are others throughout CF who will talk to you if wanting real live people to communicate with. The problem is when it's apparent you're focused on only one or two you keep trying to get to communicate with you as if they asked for it - that'd be like me always going for someone who doesn't believe that eating locusts is Kosher and continually bringing up the same questions/issues when they talk to others.....it's a moot point at that point.

    Choosing to focus on trying to talk to others already disagreeing with you/not caring to go further shows one is trying to force the issue of them being heard ....which tends to come off as showing the dynamic of somehow needing others to approve of what you hold to in order for it to be secure. That's not a good place to be - for one can simply walk away.


    If you wish to preach to yourself or post whatever scripture you wish that would make you feel as if others you want to listen are listening, you're free to do so - but it is essentially you preaching to yourself. All the questions you asked have been dealt with - that's simple enough - and the fact that you refuse to deal with it shows one is not willing to deal with what they don't wish to agree to. But leading questions generally don't do well for actual discussion if wanting real addressing of the scriptures

    Moreover, one doesn't ask loaded/double-barreled questions and assume "Yes" or "No" is the sum of them - that's not dealing with accuracy...so you were already off going into things without addressing things that give basis for the question (such as "Does St. Paul/Scripture note Gentiles become Children of Abraham by Faith according to Romans 3-4 and Galatians 3-4?" or "Does St. Paul note that Gentiles and Jews - seen as Israel - are distinct?" or "Did Yeshua ever claim Gentiles were Israel?"). If you don't do that, as a basic in surveys, you show the survey was incomplete to begin with and not to be taken seriously since it was selective - for you don't ask a question with a false, disputed, or question-begging presupposition...in the same way that asking "Have you stopped beating your wife?" presupposes that you have beaten your wife prior to its asking, as well as that you have a wife (and If you are unmarried, or have never beaten your wife, then the question is loaded).

    So one must actually be factual with the questions before choosing to ask them - you've yet to deal with what others already asked you, so there's no need doing likewise with you if you cannot do the same (Luke 20:1-8). For it'd not be proper...

    And for the sake of the common lurker wanting to see where each and every question has been asked (in addition to follow up paragraphs/pages by the poster when the answer wasn't what they wanted to hear ON EACH and EVERY scripture brought up), one can go to the following. For as said before here in #48, Others - as before - already spoke in-depth on the issue which the common lurker can go back/see for reference rather than bringing up the entirety of postings others made on the matter before (as discussed in previous threads here, here,here, here, here ...#122 as a basic ..and others such as #180 and #146 /#154). It is nothing new - and others have consistently/repeatedly dealt with each and every prophecy brought up by yourself whenever you wanted to make it an issue - it is zero evidence showing otherwise on the matter when it comes to multiple people (macher, sevengreenbeans, Shimshon in his commentary on the issue, myself, etc.) who have all done so - all of whom have noted the many ways Israel was always multifaceted and that Gentiles were included a part of Israel in various ways ...for I already noted that plainly as did others - pat34lee, in example, received a lot of hassle over it due and I and others defended him on the issue...from the thread entitled Identity Chrisis: Slander..and other places being Who is a Jew? From our older son or here/elsewhere....)....

    Others already addressed the way the Messiah reached out to Gentiles and NEVER expected them at any point to become one of the tribes of Israel - nor said that was a standard. This has been shared directly in #163 with you before - and the same thing goes for the ways the Levitical Priesthood evolved (which was already discussed with you before in #72 / #73 or here in #60 when speaking on priests - what Christ did by going outside of the Levitical priesthood to establish His own priesthood of which all Hebrews and Gentiles could be a part of....more shared in #258 )

    Gentiles don't become Levites - that role was specifically given to the Levites. There are other roles similar to it and that go above it - but being a Levite isn't what God ever said of Gentiles. That's a basic that one will either wrestle with and understand in time - or not. Brother James Pyles did an excellent presentation on the matter before that the common lurker may find beneficial - as seen in Who is a Priest? Kohein Levi - Congregation Shema Yisrael

    It's not rocket-science, Hannibal. And again, others have noted they disagreed. If one was cool in what they knew, they would walk away from it - but in trying to pursue the matter, that's an issue (IMHO).

    But again, ultimately If wanting to hear yourself preach, by all means ...have iat it, Bruh:cool: It'll simply be on ignore...
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2014
  2. daq

    daq Messianic

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    Thank you Phillip but you do not need to credit me on that as you clearly see we have the Scripture you have quoted, (and quite a few more passages) to show what you have stated. :)

    TaNaK ~ Body of Moshe (Jude 1:9)
    Brit Chadashah ~ Body of Messiah (Body of Moshe folded in, Matthew 27:52-53)
    Three Mighties:
    Ahron ~ Petros
    Eleazar ~ Yakabos-Lazaros
    Ithamar ~ Thomas-Didymus
     
  3. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    True...
     
  4. HannibalFlavius

    HannibalFlavius Well-Known Member

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    If you want to put me on ignore, go ahead be my guest, but I will still speak up when I think you are saying false things.

    Again, I can only say that it is taught that Gentiles become one with Israel, and it is taught that there is no more gentile and Jew because the two became one.

    It is taught that gentiles will be given a better name than Israel if they keep the Jewish Sabbath and have the law on their lips.


    I know that I am Grafted into Israel, but my goal is not to be Israel or Judah.

    The goal is the outcome of the struggle of these two.




    I don't believe God has two standards by which he judges two different people.


    I believe all gentiles can be given a better name than sons or daughters, every Gentile who keeps God's Sabbath and feast days.

    Those are promises.
     
  5. Phillip Hawley

    Phillip Hawley Y'shua HaMoshiach based Messianic Jew

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    ...and some MJs don't promote a conversion to organizations.[​IMG]

     
  6. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Of course, just as others patiently continue to address you where scripture diverges from what you may claim with the false scenarios or false misreadings of what others note - no one said they were concerned whether or not you chose to speak up in regards to what you feel is false. As it is (and as most Messianic Jews have long vocalized in addition to the Apostles and Yeshua), Gentiles don't cease being Gentiles when trusting in the Messiah.

    And any other proclamations outside of that go directly counter to what St. Paul said - as well as being a reflection of not seeing Gentile identity as something God values, as if God ever desired the eradication of identification with being Gentile. There's never a need to be in denial of those basic facts
    And as said before, one is free to believe however they wish - it simply isn't based fully on what Yeshua said or the Apostles when it comes to noting that Gentiles/Jews are still distinct even though they're unified (just as men and women are still distinct even though they're one in Christ) and Gentiles keeping God's Sabbath/Feast Days a part of God's people even though they are called Gentile ( Isaiah 56:5-7 ) - something we already see since John 15 notes that Jesus calls those following Him no more mere "servants" - but rather having the name and relation on a much deeper level. For it is God that gives them the name, privilege, power, and relation of children, which shall never be cut off by any act of their own, or his, or by men, or devils.... such a name had the Ethiopian eunuch, converted and baptized by Philip in Acts 8:27 after reading the promise of the Messiah in Isaiah 53 and seeing the full extent/impact of the work of the Messiah.


    Acts 8:26-40
    26 Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Go south to the road—the desert road—that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” 27 So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian[a] eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of the Kandake (which means “queen of the Ethiopians”). This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28 and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the Book of Isaiah the prophet. 29 The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.”

    30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

    31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

    32 This is the passage of Scripture the eunuch was reading:

    “He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
    and as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
    33 In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
    Who can speak of his descendants?
    For his life was taken from the earth.”


    34 The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 35 Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

    36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?” [37] [c] 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. 40 Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.


    For the sake of background, Ethopia was located in Africa south of Egypt. The Eunuch was obviously very dedicated to God because he had traveled such a long distance to worship in Jerusalem. The Jews had contact with Ethopia in ancient days (Psalm 68:31, Jeremiah 38:6-13, Jeremiahs 39:15-18, etc)---and thus, this man may have been a Gentile convert to Judaism. Because he was the treasurer of Ethopia, his conversion brought Christianity into the power structures of another government. This was the beginning of the witness "to the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8, Isaiah 56:3-5). As seen in Acts 8:29-35, Philip found the Ethiopian man reading the scriptures and explained the Gospel by asking the man if he understood what he was reading.....following the Spirit's leading and beginning discussion from where the man was (immersed in the prophecies of Isaiah). In the process of coversation, the man was shown by Phillip how Christ fulfilled Isaiah's prophecies...with the conversation starting with the eunuch begging Phillip to explain a passage of Scripture which he did not understand. Once the task was over, Philip was suddenly transported o a different city.....but God sent his messengers to those who were after Him.

    As a eunuch, the Ethopian would have been barred from the inner courts of the temple, which makes his reading "the prophet Isaiah" (v.28) especially significant ...for Isaiah held out the promise that God would grant eunuchs (alongside Gentiles wishing to do so) a heritage "better than sons and daughters" (Isaiah 56:3-5):
    Others may say "But a Ethiopian Gentile seeing the Messiah doesn't mean the Messiah/Lord was for Gentiles" - but to do so would ignore precedence. For even with the earlier example of the Eunuch of Ethopia, there were many Gentiles of African descent within the scriptures who came to faith in the Lord. One example is EBED-MELECH, the Ethopian/black man who rescued Jeremiah from the dungeon/pit he was trapped in and was praised by the Lord for it(Jeremiah 38, Jeremiah 39 ). He was a a Gentile servant, politically disenfranchised, excluded by reason of his emasculation from "the congregation of the LORD" (Deuteronomy 23:1)...and yet when he lived in nation of Jews/Israelites that refused to obey the Lord, he did what was expected of the Lord for Jews to do. And although he did the true spirit of what the Torah commanded by saving life, he was still seen as a Gentile. Yet the Lord blessed him.
    Paul also seemed to bring up the same point later in Romans 15, in continuation of his explaining the unique role that Gentiles had to play alongside the Jews, with neither becoming the other/replacing them - BOTH finding a common connection the Messiah being for BOTH groups:





    What one chooses to believe is inconsequential if/when it goes opposite of the Prophets or Yeshua - but the Lord can still work regardless of where one is at. Shalom :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2014
  7. HannibalFlavius

    HannibalFlavius Well-Known Member

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    I could write you the same posts showing your denial of facts, and just how wrong you are.

    But Meh, What one chooses to believe is inconsequential if/when it goes opposite of the Prophets or Yeshua- but the Lord can still work regardless of where one is at.

    Back at ya.
     
  8. daq

    daq Messianic

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    Way to go Hannibal; don't let anyone [outside Scripture] tell you how to run your little miqdash-sanctuary-chapel:

    Exodus 25:1-9
    1. And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
    2. Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take My offering.
    3. And this is the offering which ye shall take of them; gold, and silver, and brass,
    4. And blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' hair,
    5. And rams' skins dyed red, and badgers' skins, and shittim wood,
    6. Oil for the light, spices for anointing oil, and for sweet incense,
    7. Onyx stones, and stones to be set in the ephod, and in the breastplate.
    8. And let them make me a miqdash-sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.
    9. According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the Mishkan-Tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.


    Perhaps the best place to start is with the Parable of the Sower altar of 'adamah:

    Exodus 20:18-24
    18. And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
    19. And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
    20. And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
    21. And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
    22. And the Lord said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
    23. Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.
    24. An altar of 'adamah thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.


    Devarim companion passage:

    Deuteronomy 5:27-29
    27. Go thou near, and hear all that the Lord our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the Lord our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.
    28. And the Lord heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the Lord said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.
    29. O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!


    And don't let any heathens or their doctrines into the sanctuary of your Father! :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2014
  9. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Not really an issue - for you already did just that in choosing to write "I will still speak up when I think you are saying false things" ...thus, it is another inconsequential matter when seeing what tends to occur in practice, only to be claimed as if you didn't already do so. Arguments by assertion/claiming someone is just "wrong" doesn't deal with scripture nor does it deal with where scripture was discussed and you avoided it consistently - or denied where others brought it up....and that generally happens whenever one is already convinced of a stance/more so focused on pushing for others to adhere to it rather than actually processing through it.

    And of course, I'm not alone seeing that others (i.e. sevengreenbeans, macher, Shimshon, ContraMundum, etc.) already addressed them seeing how it's generally the same when it has come up repeatedly - so as said before, talking on how wrong others are is pointless/moot when the whole of scripture isn't addressed ...and in context of this discussion, Romans 3-4 and Galatians 3-4 on the issue of becoming a child of Abraham by faith (not by becoming Israel). It is what it is. And as said before, if one is going to be selective with scripture before asking questions on it (assuming they already have the answers in their questions), then one isn't really dealing with scripture and thus there's reason others choose not to engage it.
    Of course - now, unless anything better can be offered, one can move on and hopefully go back to addressing what Brother Marc was saying rather than the derail.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2014
  10. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Hit me up FB to let me know of the discussion you were speaking of, Bruh - I'd love to follow it and see some of the insights. Language truly does make a lot of difference:)
     
  11. HannibalFlavius

    HannibalFlavius Well-Known Member

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    Since these people are an authority, they must be right because they addressed it?

    How dare I huh?


    Your point is moot.

    You have already been proven wrong.
     
  12. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Of course - somehow St. Paul is not an authority when noting what he did in Romans 3-4 or Galatians 3-4 on Abraham being justified by faith and Gentiles becoming children of Abraham by doing the same (as well as being a part of the Common Wealth of Israel rather than taking the place of the Jews as the 12 Tribes) - this was already covered earlier in #141 and #138 or #123..Gentiles were never shown to be Levites - that role was specifically given to the Levites (as there are other roles similar to it and that go above it - but being a Levite isn't what God ever said of Gentiles) - Brother James Pyles did an excellent presentation on the matter before that the common lurker may find beneficial - as seen in Who is a Priest? Kohein Levi - Congregation Shema Yisrael

    For each of the people who already took time to address the same questions (rhetorical as they are and loaded) in scripture while it was selectively avoided, there's reason why they chose to leave it alone after addressing it at length (counter to the claim of not one dealing with it) when it comes to discernment on the nature behind questions/discussion. As said before, till able to address that , talking on others being proven "wrong" is argument via assertion and not hard to deal with when seeing where what the Apostles already noted is not so much a concern as what one wishes to see in it.

    Such is life - so again, unless you have anything new in points, it's more of the same and why many Messianic Jews don't care for it. Hopefully one can focus/get back on track with dealing with what Brother Marc was noting rather on more of a derail.....:)
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2014
  13. Phillip Hawley

    Phillip Hawley Y'shua HaMoshiach based Messianic Jew

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    Hannibal,

    Nevermind. I can't exercise my humor right now. I'm under a cloud of suspicion! [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2014
  14. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Marc,


    I think your point was made more than clear - and some of the responses to it really don't deal with the central issue you've been focusing on...as you noted here:



     
  15. HannibalFlavius

    HannibalFlavius Well-Known Member

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    Saint Paul taught Gentiles that they become one with Israel, adopted into Israel, grafted into Israel, where he says.'' Therefore there is no difference between Jew and Gentile.''

    If you don't admit that, I don't know what to say.

    I show you scripture that shows Gentiles becoming Levites and priests, I believe those scriptures.

    I show you how Gentiles should carry the Jews on their backs, how Gentiles are counted amongst the inheritance of Israel gaining new names, and Jesus promises us new names.

    I stand on those promises, you stop at Abraham, and Paul explains Abraham, Isaac, and Israel as being things a gentiles can be counted under, not just Abraham.


    But if I show you scripture that shows a Gentile becoming a Levite, do you actually believe the scripture, or do you rationalize it away?

    If I show you how we are grafted into the same tree after other branches have been broken off, do you actually believe it?

    I do.

    I believe the promises given to Gentiles, and nobody can take them away.

    I believe scripture, I don't rationalize it.

    I believe in the promise of Rosh Hashanah and the marriage feast of the lamb, because I count myself as being married to a Jew.

    I believe in the promise of Sukkot, because it is a promise to obtain a new covering.

    I believe in Passover, because I believe that Jesus was my Passover and what portion does a Gentile have in Passover?

    I don't believe these things because I made them up, but they are promises.


    I actually believe them, I do not rationalize them away.
     
  16. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    As already said, one can save the speech for elsewhere - for it's already apparent you cannot submit to/acknowledge where Paul already said Gentiles become children of Abraham by FAITH (Romans 3-4 and Galatians 4) - also noting that they do not replace Israel in any way nor do they become the 12 tribes.

    Ironically, for one speaking on rationalization when it comes to the Levitical priesthood and claiming Gentiles become that, one already rationalized that away when it came to the myriad of scriptures that show where that never occurred - so again, there's a dynamic of making things up to a good degree as one goes along....and, as said before, some issues as it concerns how Gentiles were seen by Christ as opposed to how one chooses to see Gentiles the way Yeshua saw them and how the Early Jewish Church saw them as well.

    If one wishes to view otherwise, by all means - but it's their choice and nothing based fully in scripture or Christ....and this was already covered and one choosing to speak past that already goes into speak with lack of facts or concern for what others already said. This was already covered earlier in #141 and #138 or #123..Gentiles were never shown to be Levites - that role was specifically given to the Levites (as there are other roles similar to it and that go above it - but being a Levite isn't what God ever said of Gentiles) - Brother James Pyles did an excellent presentation on the matter before that the common lurker may find beneficial - as seen in Who is a Priest? Kohein Levi - Congregation Shema Yisrael


    I repeat: for the sake of the common lurker wanting to see where each and every question has been asked (in addition to follow up paragraphs/pages by the poster when the answer wasn't what they wanted to hear ON EACH and EVERY scripture brought up), one can go to the following. For as said before here in #48, Others - as before - already spoke in-depth on the issue which the common lurker can go back/see for reference rather than bringing up the entirety of postings others made on the matter before (as discussed IN here, here,here, here, here ...#122 as a basic ..and others such as #180 and #146 /#154). It is nothing new - and others have consistently/repeatedly dealt with each and every prophecy brought up by yourself whenever you wanted to make it an issue - it is zero evidence showing otherwise on the matter when it comes to multiple people (macher, sevengreenbeans, Shimshon in his commentary on the issue, myself, etc.) who have all done so - all of whom have noted the many ways Israel was always multifaceted and that Gentiles were included a part of Israel in various ways ...for I already noted that plainly as did others - pat34lee, in example, received a lot of hassle over it due and I and others defended him on the issue...from the thread entitled Identity Chrisis: Slander..and other places being Who is a Jew? From our older son or here/elsewhere....)....

    Others already addressed the way the Messiah reached out to Gentiles and NEVER expected them at any point to become one of the tribes of Israel - nor said that was a standard. This has been shared directly in #163 with you before - and the same thing goes for the ways the Levitical Priesthood evolved (which was already discussed with you before in #72 / #73 or here in #60 when speaking on priests - what Christ did by going outside of the Levitical priesthood to establish His own priesthood of which all Hebrews and Gentiles could be a part of....more shared in #258 )

    And we see this in action in the scriptures. As said before, John 15 notes that Jesus calls those following Him no more mere "servants" - but rather having the name and relation on a much deeper level. For it is God that gives them the name, privilege, power, and relation of children, which shall never be cut off by any act of their own, or his, or by men, or devils.... such a name had the Ethiopian eunuch, converted and baptized by Philip in Acts 8:27 after reading the promise of the Messiah in Isaiah 53 and seeing the full extent/impact of the work of the Messiah.


    Acts 8:26-40
    26 Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Go south to the road—the desert road—that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” 27 So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian[a] eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of the Kandake (which means “queen of the Ethiopians”). This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28 and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the Book of Isaiah the prophet. 29 The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.”

    30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

    31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

    32 This is the passage of Scripture the eunuch was reading:

    “He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
    and as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
    33 In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
    Who can speak of his descendants?
    For his life was taken from the earth.”


    34 The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 35 Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

    36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?” [37] [c] 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. 40 Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.


    For the sake of background, Ethopia was located in Africa south of Egypt. The Eunuch was obviously very dedicated to God because he had traveled such a long distance to worship in Jerusalem. The Jews had contact with Ethopia in ancient days (Psalm 68:31, Jeremiah 38:6-13, Jeremiahs 39:15-18, etc)---and thus, this man may have been a Gentile convert to Judaism. Because he was the treasurer of Ethopia, his conversion brought Christianity into the power structures of another government. This was the beginning of the witness "to the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8, Isaiah 56:3-5). As seen in Acts 8:29-35, Philip found the Ethiopian man reading the scriptures and explained the Gospel by asking the man if he understood what he was reading.....following the Spirit's leading and beginning discussion from where the man was (immersed in the prophecies of Isaiah). In the process of coversation, the man was shown by Phillip how Christ fulfilled Isaiah's prophecies...with the conversation starting with the eunuch begging Phillip to explain a passage of Scripture which he did not understand. Once the task was over, Philip was suddenly transported o a different city.....but God sent his messengers to those who were after Him.

    As a eunuch, the Ethopian would have been barred from the inner courts of the temple, which makes his reading "the prophet Isaiah" (v.28) especially significant ...for Isaiah held out the promise that God would grant eunuchs (alongside Gentiles wishing to do so) a heritage "better than sons and daughters" (Isaiah 56:3-5):
    Others may say "But a Ethiopian Gentile seeing the Messiah doesn't mean the Messiah/Lord was for Gentiles" - but to do so would ignore precedence. For even with the earlier example of the Eunuch of Ethopia, there were many Gentiles of African descent within the scriptures who came to faith in the Lord. One example is EBED-MELECH, the Ethopian/black man who rescued Jeremiah from the dungeon/pit he was trapped in and was praised by the Lord for it(Jeremiah 38, Jeremiah 39 ). He was a a Gentile servant, politically disenfranchised, excluded by reason of his emasculation from "the congregation of the LORD" (Deuteronomy 23:1)...and yet when he lived in nation of Jews/Israelites that refused to obey the Lord, he did what was expected of the Lord for Jews to do. And although he did the true spirit of what the Torah commanded by saving life, he was still seen as a Gentile. Yet the Lord blessed him.
    Paul also seemed to bring up the same point later in Romans 15, in continuation of his explaining the unique role that Gentiles had to play alongside the Jews, with neither becoming the other/replacing them - BOTH finding a common connection the Messiah being for BOTH groups:





    We can do this all day, Hannibal - but as said before, you already made your point and others can go back (as they have before/noted it) to see what was actually said. Not a real difficulty or problem ...
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2014
  17. HannibalFlavius

    HannibalFlavius Well-Known Member

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    If you want to write my posts, I'll give you my password.

    Until then, I'll make speeches when I find you claiming false things.
     
  18. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    :boredsleep:And as said before, I'm not concerned with whether or not you do - for as stated plainly, it is of no consequence when/if you feel the need to preach to anyone things that aren't really new. And IMHO, it is evident one is more concerned with having validation of their ideas before others they disagree with rather than really wishing to address the whole of what scripture says. If you want to focus on/come after others, that's your choice.....but it'll be addressed.

    As it is, there were already several occasions things were stated by yourself others saw to be non-factual - and thankfully, several noted the issue and chose to address it as best as possible, thankfully. I don't really care to make it a habit of going after every single thing I think to be false since it has been noted that it's better to walk away/keep rolling. Nonetheless, that can be difficult for some and thus it's hard to walk away in discussion if one feels compelled to address others.....and unfortunate if and when one addresses things on the basis of false scenarios rather than what they actually said. As said before, this is no different than #41 when I made brief comment about something Marc and I were discussing on UMJC/MJAA and stances they had we agreed to ...and you jumped in as if others were focusing on you (as seen in #42 ..and which I had to address in #50 ). Obvious is the case that anything dealing with others saying "Gentiles aren't really Ephraim" is an issue for you - but such is life...

    It's not my goal nor concern to come after you in each/every posting you make - but if I chose to do so, it'd not be terribly difficult to handle. Claiming "Gentiles Have TO BE Ephraim for acceptance" isn't really a new teaching that Messianic Jews haven't encountered before ( ) and globally it has been tackled easily. As I've already said before, John McKee did an excellent job of addressing that (Especially as it concerns the ways Joseph is and isn't connected to Gentiles - as s he noted here and here and here and here in How Should we Approach the Term “Gentile”? | J.K. McKee | Messianic Publications ) - even though he more than agrees with others noting how Gentiles/Jews had many distinctions given to them over history of the Torah and how there were many Gentiles living amongst the Jews who identified fully with them...others having Israelite ancestry in their roots.

    And like him, I will stick with what St. Paul noted when pointing out the Gentiles being saved by faith in Christ as Abraham also believed (Galatians 3, Romans 4, etc.), the Gospel.

    So long as tribal affiliation is the focus, it's no different than others saying Jewish Ethnicity is exalted above all else - it is not truly Yeshua. Thus, the speeches aren't necessary as if something radically new is being said on the issue - but they do give opportunities to address what is passionately said in the name of Christ - and what actually deals with the Words of Christ when it comes to what is or isn't true. So again, harp away if that's your wish - but when it is addressed, it'd be wisdom to stop complaining about whatever you claim not being addressed since that's not historical and what has been said (for the sake of the lurker) will keep being referred to each/every time you choose to make it an issue with obsessing over others you want to hold to your own views.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2014
  19. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    It isn't really racist unless someone says "Gentiles are worth less than Jews" (or the reverse) - but till then, it's really a matter of misconception in the same way one can assume the Country Radio station developed for Caucasians in the country is "racist" for not predominately playing Jazz or Smooth R&B that blacks listen to - for if a black person came across the station and complained "You need to have our music playing - our voice needs to be heard!!!", it'd be off.

    Same with Jewish synagogues when it comes to Gentiles...
     
  20. Messianic Jewboy

    Messianic Jewboy Senior Veteran

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