Jesus's resurrection

[sovereigngrace]

Again you're talking nonsense. The reason why Young's literal translation translates it as "Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first rising again;" is because the word means "who holds possession of"

That does not mean that the Lord's words are not a PROPHECY of something to take place FOLLOWING His return - UNLESS (for those who choose to) you CHOOSE to "hold the words in the past tense" (if you'll pardon the pun) - but you still have not provided proof of what you say just because you have CHOSEN to read into it what the Lord told us about our spiritual BIRTH.

G2192 ekh'-o
A primary verb: To hold (used in very various applications literally or figuratively direct or remote; such as possession ability contiguity relation or condition): - be (able × hold possessed with) accompany + begin to amend can (+ -not) × conceive count diseased do + eat + enjoy + fear following have hold keep + lack + go to law lie + must needs + of necessity + need next + recover + reign + rest return × sick take for + tremble + uncircumcised use.

John is describing a current reality in Revelation 20:6. It says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: “He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

Revelation 2:11 and Revelation 20:6 mirror each other. The reason being they are speaking about the same reality in the same age – spiritual victory in this current age. Like Revelation 20:6, this is speaking about a current spiritual state (salvation) that allows the Christian to escape eternal punishment. It is the same message in each passage because we are looking at the same author.

The word "overcometh" here is actually written in the present active particle meaning it relates to the here-and-now. It is an experience that is realized in life. When you have "eth" in the KJV it means it is a present reality.

John was caught up to heaven to see what was happening in the here-and-now. He also saw past and future events. Future things were given in a future tense; past things in the past tense and current things were given in the present tense. What is more, please see John's MO at presenting salvation alone as man's only means of victory over eternal punishment. Nowhere does he present the physical resurrection of the just as that event. The reason is that (1) it doesn't make sense and (2) it wouldn't include all the elect.

There is no contradiction in the tenses. Revelation 20:6 shows (what we all know) that salvation must come first before we receive power, authority and reign. That is why "hath part" is in the present tense, and "they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years” is future. It is demonstrating sequence. After salvation comes heavenly power and victory over everlasting punishment.

 

[Zao is life]

John is describing a current reality in Revelation 20:6. It says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: “He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

Revelation 2:11 and Revelation 20:6 mirror each other. The reason being they are speaking about the same reality in the same age – spiritual victory in this current age. Like Revelation 20:6, this is speaking about a current spiritual state (salvation) that allows the Christian to escape eternal punishment. It is the same message in each passage because we are looking at the same author.

The word "overcometh" here is actually written in the present active particle meaning it relates to the here-and-now. It is an experience that is realized in life. When you have "eth" in the KJV it means it is a present reality.

John was caught up to heaven to see what was happening in the here-and-now. He also saw past and future events. Future things were given in a future tense; past things in the past tense and current things were given in the present tense. What is more, please see John's MO at presenting salvation alone as man's only means of victory over eternal punishment. Nowhere does he present the physical resurrection of the just as that event. The reason is that (1) it doesn't make sense and (2) it wouldn't include all the elect.

There is no contradiction in the tenses. Revelation 20:6 shows (what we all know) that salvation must come first before we receive power, authority and reign. That is why "hath part" is in the present tense, and "they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years” is future. It is demonstrating sequence. After salvation comes heavenly power and victory over everlasting punishment.

It's all fine. You watch for the New heavens and new earth when the Lord returns and I'll wait to see what He does before the earth burns up and before there is a Great White Throne court and before there is a new heavens and new earth.

Is it a problem the fact that one of us will be proved wrong?

Is it a sin to believe in A-millennialism and be proved wrong? Or in Pre-millennialism and be proved wrong?

 

[sovereigngrace]

That's where you have gone wrong, and where we disagree. The Bible does not call the new birth a "resurrection".

PS: Yes, I believe in the Trinity and know how to defend the fact of the Trinity from the Bible because I have searched the scriptures myself and found the Trinity there.

We were legally represented “in Christ” in His life, death and resurrection. It was a substitutionary mission Christ was on. Just like we were legally represented “in Adam” when he fell, we were justified in the perfect life that Christ lived, the vicarious sacrifice He made and the triumphant resurrection He secured. The Lord’s resurrection spelt defeat for all unrighteousness. Every enemy of God was defeated in the glorious resurrection from the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:14 & 17 makes clear: “if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain ... if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.”

Why? Christ’s resurrection secured our salvation. In fact, there is no eternal life apart from resurrection. If Christ had simply died and remained in the grave then there would be no victory over sin, death and the grave. Christ took upon Himself our sin (being made sin for us). He was punished for our sin. He conquered our sin by paying the full penalty for it on Calvary’s tree. Christ then defeating sin, death and the grave through His victorious resurrection from the dead.

Ephesians 2:5: “Even when we were dead in sins, ‘hath quickened us together’ (aorist active indicative) with Christ, (by grace ye are saved).”

When it comes to salvation, John often presents an absolute truth embodying a condition immediately followed by a promise. The promise either refers to experiencing eternal bliss or victory over eternal punishment. Please look at the following evidence from the same author (John) in John's Gospel and 1 John. See his repeated emphasis on only one single means of overcoming (or escaping) “the second death” (eternal punishment).

Jesus said in John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present active particle) in him should not perish, but have (present active subjunctive) everlasting life.”

Currently believing carefully corresponds with currently experiencing “everlasting life." It is a present reality for the elect, not merely a future hope. That is so because God lives within us now.

John 3:36 says, “He that believeth on the Son hath (present active indicative) everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God (the second death) abideth on him.”

If you don't possess eternal life now you will not possess it in the life to come. Only those who possess it now will never die.

Jesus said in John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath (present active indicative) everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death (or experience the second death) unto life.”

He continues in the next verse (John 5:25): “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”

The transition from death to life both spiritually and physically occurs by way of resurrection. There is no other way. This is demonstrated many times in Scripture in regard to both spiritual and physical resurrection.

Jesus said in John 6:47: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath (present active indicative) everlasting life.”

The word “hath” here is a present tense word which means now or at this present time.

Jesus said in John 6:50-51, 54&58: “This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world … Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life … he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.”

John 8:51-52 Christ said to the Pharisees, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death (or experience the second death) … If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.”

Jesus said in John 10:27-28: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give (present active indicative) unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish (or experience the second death), neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

Jesus says, in John 11:25, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth (present active particle) and believeth (present active particle) in me shall never die (or experience the second death)."

These bodies are not eternal or immortal. Our spirits are. That is 101 Christianity. These bodies die. What is more we experience eternal life upon salvation. The Christian will live for and never die because the Spirit of God within.

John 17:3: “And this is (present, active, indicative) life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

I John 5:11-13 says, “God hath given (aorist active indicative) to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath (present active particle) the Son hath (present active particle) life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have (present active indicative) eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”

To have Christ is to have eternal life. That simple! Not to have Christ is not to have eternal life. That simple!

John is describing a current reality in Revelation 20:6. It says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: “He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

 

[Zao is life]

We were legally represented “in Christ” in His life, death and resurrection. It was a substitutionary mission Christ was on. Just like we were legally represented “in Adam” when He fell, we were justified in the perfect life that Christ lived, the vicarious sacrifice He made and the triumphant resurrection He secured. The Lord’s resurrection spelt defeat for all unrighteousness. Every enemy of God was defeated in the glorious resurrection from the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:14 & 17 makes clear: “if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain ... if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.”

Why? Christ’s resurrection secured our salvation. In fact, there is no eternal life apart from resurrection. If Christ had simply died and remained in the grave then there would be no victory over sin, death and the grave. Christ took upon Himself our sin (being made sin for us). He was punished for our sin. He conquered our sin by paying the full penalty for it on Calvary’s tree. Christ then defeating sin, death and the grave through His victorious resurrection from the dead.

Ephesians 2:5: “Even when we were dead in sins, ‘hath quickened us together’ (aorist active indicative) with Christ, (by grace ye are saved).”

When it comes to salvation, John often presents an absolute truth embodying a condition immediately followed by a promise. The promise either refers to experiencing eternal bliss or victory over eternal punishment. Please look at the following evidence from the same author (John) in John's Gospel and 1 John. See his repeated emphasis on only one single means of overcoming (or escaping) “the second death” (eternal punishment).

Jesus said in John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present active particle) in him should not perish, but have (present active subjunctive) everlasting life.”

Currently believing carefully corresponds with currently experiencing “everlasting life." It is a present reality for the elect, not merely a future hope. That is so because God lives within us now.

John 3:36 says, “He that believeth on the Son hath (present active indicative) everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God (the second death) abideth on him.”

If you don't possess eternal life now you will not possess it in the life to come. Only those who possess it now will never die.

Jesus said in John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath (present active indicative) everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death (or experience the second death) unto life.”

He continues in the next verse (John 5:25): “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”

We were in agreement all the way until you said:

The transition from death to life both spiritually and physically occurs by way of resurrection. There is no other way. This is demonstrated many times in Scripture in regard to both spiritual and physical resurrection.

The transition to life physically is by resurrection from death. The transition to life spiritually is through birth - being born of the Spirit of Christ. It's not a "resurrection from (our) death" but we are raised with Christ by virtue of our birth into Christ. We also die with Him:

Romans 6:3 Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
Romans 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.

How did we die with Christ when we were baptized into His death? Spiritually? We could not have died spiritually because we were never alive spiritually before being born of His Spirit.

Christ died, so the moment we are born into Him by His Spirit, we die with Him and are raised with Him.

We do not agree regarding your claim that the above fact constitutes our so-called "spiritual resurrection" so there is no point in becoming angry over it. We will argue about it ad infinitum.

Jesus said in John 6:47: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath (present active indicative) everlasting life.”

The word “hath” here is a present tense word which means now or at this present time.

Yes - by virtue of our birth by the Spirit of God - just as you continue below:

Jesus said in John 6:50-51, 54&58: “This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world … Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life … he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.”

John 8:51-52 Christ said to the Pharisees, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death (or experience the second death) … If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.”

Jesus said in John 10:27-28: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give (present active indicative) unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish (or experience the second death), neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

Jesus says, in John 11:25, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth (present active particle) and believeth (present active particle) in me shall never die (or experience the second death)."

It's all true, and praise God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ for all of it - but none of the above = "we were spiritually resurrected" - it's all ours by virtue of the fact that through our faith we are born of the Spirit of Christ. These very scriptures you use do not prove or even imply that we are "resurrected" spiritually at the time of our spiritual birth.

These bodies are not eternal or immortal. Our spirits are.

When did we receive our immortal spirits? Is there not a difference between psuche (soul) and spirit (pneuma), as in the following verse?:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 and the God of the peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit (pneuma), and soul (psuche), and body (soma), be preserved unblameably in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ;

You have answered the question below:

That is 101 Christianity. These bodies die. What is more we experience eternal life upon salvation. The Christian will live for and never die because the Spirit of God within.

Praise be to God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, It's all thanks to Him:

John 17:3: “And this is (present, active, indicative) life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

I John 5:11-13 says, “God hath given (aorist active indicative) to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath (present active particle) the Son hath (present active particle) life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have (present active indicative) eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”

To have Christ is to have eternal life. That simple! Not to have Christ is not to have eternal life. That simple!

None of the above facts however, even imply that our spiritual birthday was also our "spiritual resurrection" - so as can be seen from all these facts, you have read into the following verses a so-called 'spiritual resurrection" which did not occur when we were born of the Spirit, because we were born of the Spirit, not "resurrected":

John is describing a current reality in Revelation 20:6. It says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: “He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

Jesus stated that those who are faithful unto death will not be hurt by the second death - why do you attempt to change what JESUS said by leaving out the part which shows the context just because it's convenient to your false assumption?:

Be not afraid of the things that thou art about to suffer; lo, the devil is about to cast of you to prison, that ye may be tried, and ye shall have tribulation ten days; become thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the crown of the life. He who is having an ear--let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: He who is overcoming may not be injured of the second death. Revelation 2:10-11.

Jesus was saying that He who remains faithful regarding his testimony to Jesus unto death will not be hurt by the second death - but I see you conveniently attempt to change the meaning by leaving out part of what the Lord said in those two verses and therefore, the context.

So once again, you're left with the hapless position of trying to find other scriptures which do not prove anyone was "resurrected spiritually" when they were born spiritually. But you're never going to find them, because they don't exist.

 

[sovereigngrace]

We were in agreement all the way until you said:


The transition to life physically is by resurrection from death. The transition to life spiritually is through birth - being born of the Spirit of Christ. It's not a "resurrection from (our) death" but we are raised with Christ by virtue of our birth into Christ. We also die with Him:

Romans 6:3 Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
Romans 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.

How did we die with Christ when we were baptized into His death? Spiritually? We could not have died spiritually because we were never alive spiritually before being born of His Spirit.

Christ died, so the moment we are born into Him by His Spirit, we die with Him and are raised with Him.

We do not agree regarding your claim that the above fact constitutes our so-called "spiritual resurrection" so there is no point in becoming angry over it. We will argue about it ad infinitum.


Yes - by virtue of our birth by the Spirit of God - just as you continue below:


It's all true, and praise God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ for all of it - but none of the above = "we were spiritually resurrected" - it's all ours by virtue of the fact that through our faith we are born of the Spirit of Christ. These very scriptures you use do not prove or even imply that we are "resurrected" spiritually at the time of our spiritual birth.


When did we receive our immortal spirits? Is there not a difference between psuche (soul) and spirit (pneuma), as in the following verse?:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 and the God of the peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit (pneuma), and soul (psuche), and body (soma), be preserved unblameably in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ;

You have answered the question below:


Praise be to God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, It's all thanks to Him:


None of the above facts however, even imply that our spiritual birthday was also our "spiritual resurrection" - so as can be seen from all these facts, you have read into the following verses a so-called 'spiritual resurrection" which did not occur when we were born of the Spirit, because we were born of the Spirit, not "resurrected":


Jesus stated that those who are faithful unto death will not be hurt by the second death - why do you attempt to change what JESUS said by leaving out the part which shows the context just because it's convenient to your false assumption?:

Be not afraid of the things that thou art about to suffer; lo, the devil is about to cast of you to prison, that ye may be tried, and ye shall have tribulation ten days; become thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the crown of the life. He who is having an ear--let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: He who is overcoming may not be injured of the second death. Revelation 2:10-11.

Jesus was saying that He who remains faithful regarding his testimony to Jesus unto death will not be hurt by the second death - but I see you conveniently attempt to change the meaning by leaving out part of what the Lord said in those two verses and therefore, the context.

So once again, you're left with the hapless position of trying to find other scriptures which do not prove anyone was "resurrected spiritually" when they were born spiritually. But you're never going to find them, because they don't exist.

We are tripart beings, like God. Our soul refers to our natural carnal man (known biblically as the flesh or old man), our spirit refers to our spiritual heavenly man (known as a new creature or new man). We are born naturally alive and spiritually dead. Our soul is alive and kicking, our spiritual man is dead. The sinful man within us - the old nature (the soulish man) - will always sin, because he is a rebel. He can do no other. When the new man comes into the house a war commences. Scripture illustrates this truth with Ishmael and Isaac.

· The old man is from below. He is earthly. He is carnal.
· The new man is from above. He is heavenly. He is spiritual.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

To fully grasp this matter, you’re going to have to know the difference between your soul and your spirit, between your natural personality and your spiritual newness of life, between your old man and your new man, between your sinful man and your righteous man, between self and Christ, between law and grace, and between works and faith, between condemnation and justification.

· The law was given to expose the old man.
· Grace was given to liberate the new man.

What happens in salvation is incredible, supernatural and necessary. When you receive Christ you are raised out of the grave of your sin into spiritual life. Upon salvation you receive God’s perfect holiness.

David Wilkerson explains: “when Jesus died, he took the old Adam with him into the grave. When the Lord rose from the dead, he left the old Adam there. In God’s eyes, that old man remains dead. He was crucified with Christ, along with all flesh … Our old man is legally dead in God’s eyes, and the new man, Jesus Christ, lives in us. If you are in Christ by faith, it doesn’t matter how you feel about yourself. The only thing that matters is how God sees you, and when he looks at you, he sees Christ.”

· In salvation, you trade your life for His life. You then become one with Christ. He is head, we are the body.
· We put off the self-life and we put on the Christ’s-life.

 

[DavidPT]

Please also provide proof that the first resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20 is a spiritual resurrection that happens millions upon millions upon millions of times over a period of 2,000 or more years each time someone is born of the Spirit.

And speaking of that happening millions of times like that, that obviously means the following also has to happen each of those times---And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them. Can't divorce that part from the first resurrection. If the first resurrection is not a one time event, but is an event that occurs millions of times throughout a 2000 years period, why would this part be a one time event rather than an event that is also repeated millions of times as well?

 

[sovereigngrace]

We were in agreement all the way until you said:


The transition to life physically is by resurrection from death. The transition to life spiritually is through birth - being born of the Spirit of Christ. It's not a "resurrection from (our) death" but we are raised with Christ by virtue of our birth into Christ. We also die with Him:

Romans 6:3 Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
Romans 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.

How did we die with Christ when we were baptized into His death? Spiritually? We could not have died spiritually because we were never alive spiritually before being born of His Spirit.

Christ died, so the moment we are born into Him by His Spirit, we die with Him and are raised with Him.

We do not agree regarding your claim that the above fact constitutes our so-called "spiritual resurrection" so there is no point in becoming angry over it. We will argue about it ad infinitum.


Yes - by virtue of our birth by the Spirit of God - just as you continue below:


It's all true, and praise God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ for all of it - but none of the above = "we were spiritually resurrected" - it's all ours by virtue of the fact that through our faith we are born of the Spirit of Christ. These very scriptures you use do not prove or even imply that we are "resurrected" spiritually at the time of our spiritual birth.


When did we receive our immortal spirits? Is there not a difference between psuche (soul) and spirit (pneuma), as in the following verse?:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 and the God of the peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit (pneuma), and soul (psuche), and body (soma), be preserved unblameably in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ;

You have answered the question below:


Praise be to God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, It's all thanks to Him:


None of the above facts however, even imply that our spiritual birthday was also our "spiritual resurrection" - so as can be seen from all these facts, you have read into the following verses a so-called 'spiritual resurrection" which did not occur when we were born of the Spirit, because we were born of the Spirit, not "resurrected":


Jesus stated that those who are faithful unto death will not be hurt by the second death - why do you attempt to change what JESUS said by leaving out the part which shows the context just because it's convenient to your false assumption?:

Be not afraid of the things that thou art about to suffer; lo, the devil is about to cast of you to prison, that ye may be tried, and ye shall have tribulation ten days; become thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the crown of the life. He who is having an ear--let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: He who is overcoming may not be injured of the second death. Revelation 2:10-11.

Jesus was saying that He who remains faithful regarding his testimony to Jesus unto death will not be hurt by the second death - but I see you conveniently attempt to change the meaning by leaving out part of what the Lord said in those two verses and therefore, the context.

So once again, you're left with the hapless position of trying to find other scriptures which do not prove anyone was "resurrected spiritually" when they were born spiritually. But you're never going to find them, because they don't exist.

Premils have repeatedly sidestepped the teaching of the NT on this issue, that is because it forbids Premil. I will re-post:

The only way that we can transition from death to life (both spiritually and physically) is by way of resurrection. There is no other way! This is demonstrated many times in Scripture in regard to both spiritual and physical resurrection.

Two resurrections result for the believer from Christ’s one resurrection. Man needs both spiritually redeemed and physically redeemed. When one gets saved they are spiritually redeemed. But they are not physically redeemed until resurrection day. His “first resurrection” secured both resurrections for those who will put their faith in Christ.

Romans 6:3-6 says, “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up (or) egeiro (Strong’s 1453) from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection (or) anastasis (Strong’s 386): Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”

There are two Greek words used in Romans 6:3-10 that are used to describe the resurrection of Christ, and that are significantly in turn purposely equated to the believer and the new birth experience; they are egeiro (Strong’s 1453) and anastasis (Strong’s 386). Such a correlation between these two diverse types of resurrection (physical and spiritual) is only secured through Christ’s sinless life, atoning death and glorious resurrection, enabling the believer to walk in resurrection power and “newness of life.” The believer here is therefore supernaturally transferred from a condition of death into one of life. This undoubtedly relates (1) to a spiritual state, and, (2), to the here in now. It cannot relate to the physical resurrection which is still future and which occurs at the second coming of Christ.

The first word egeiro (Strong’s 1453) is used many times throughout the New Testament to describe the Lord’s physical resurrection. These references are found in Matthew 14:2, 16:21, 17:9, 23, 20:19, 26:32, 27:63, 64, 28:6, 7, Mark 14:28, 16:6, 14, Luke 1:69, 9:22, 24:6, 34, John 2:19, 20, 22, 21:14, Acts 3:15, 4:10, 5:30, 10:40, 13:30, 37, Romans 4:24, 25, 6:4, 9, 7:4, 8:11, 34, 10:9, 1 Corinthians 6:14, 15:4, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 20, 2 Corinthians 4:14, 5:15, Galatians 1:1, Ephesians 1:20, Colossians 2:12, 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 1 Peter 1:21.

Similarly, the other Greek word anastasis (Strong’s 386), which is identified several times in Scripture with the new birth spiritual resurrection is also used several times to describe the Lord’s physical resurrection. It is derived from the root word anistemi (Strong’s 450). These are outlined in Mark 8:31, 9:31, 10:34, 16:9, Luke 18:33, 24:7, 26, John 20:9, Acts 2:24, 31, 32, 3:26, 4:2, 33, 10:41, 13:33, 34, 17:3, 18, 26:23, Romans 15:12, Philippians 3:10 1 Thessalonians 4:14, 1 Peter 1:3, 3:21.

The same two Greek words that are repeatedly employed to describe Christ’s physical resurrection from the dead are also used in Ephesians 5:14 to describe the new birth experience of the believer. The sinner being commanded: “Awake (or) egeiro (Strong’s 1453) thou that sleepest, and arise (or) anistemi (Strong’s 450) from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light” (Ephesians 5:14).

The resurrection portrayed here is again not a physical resurrection, but, a spiritual resurrection in which the recipient (the sinner) receives the joy of salvation. Through this spiritual resurrection, the believer receives the “light” of God and is therefore spared the awful sentence of eternal wrath. The verb “arise” in this text specifically relates to salvation and is a metaphor describing the spiritual resurrection that Christians undergo when they are lifted from the grave of sin. It also demonstrates the blessing that follows this resurrection. The true child of God receives the blessed light of God’s dear Son the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Lord Himself declared in John 8:12, “I am the light of the world, he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.” It is worth noting, Paul is speaking to first century Ephesian citizens in this reading, who lived at least 1,950 years away from the actual return of the Lord. He is offering them the opportunity of walking in the fullness of the resurrection life then. Moreover, this resurrection life is still available today to sinners that humbly bow their knee to Christ.

If the Premillennialist can see that there is a resurrection in the New Testament, pertaining to the believer, which precedes the physical resurrection, which releases a man from the punishment of the second death (eternal wrath) – involving the new birth experience, then he should be able to accept the fact that it is the “first resurrection.”

Luke 2:34 also records, “Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again anastasis (or resurrecting, Strong’s 386) of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against.”

Matthew Henry explains in relation to this passage, “He (Jesus) is set for the rising again of many in Israel, that is, for the conversion of many to God that are dead and buried in sin, and for the consolation of many in God that are sunk and lost in sorrow and despair. Those whom he is set for the fall of may be the same with those whom he is set for the rising again of. He is set eis ptosin kai anastasin - for their fall, in order to their rising again; to humble and abase them, and bring them off from all confidence in themselves, that they may be exalted by relying on Christ; he wounds and then heals, Paul falls, and rises again”

The believer is raised from the grave of his sin and spiritual death at conversion, which of necessity must be a spiritual resurrection. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 1:8-10, “For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life: But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth (or) egeiro (Strong’s 1453) the dead: Who delivered us (past tense) from so great a death, and doth deliver (present tense): in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us (future tense).”

This whole passage is concentrated upon the great eternal provision of spiritual deliverance. The word “raiseth” in this reading is a present active verb, therefore it is talking about a resurrection that is happening now, rather than the future physical resurrection. This is obviously speaking of spiritual resurrection, because it alone has been ongoing since Christ’s first (physical) resurrection. This will, of course, culminate with the general physical resurrection at His return.

Paul goes on then to emphasise the victorious ongoing hope that the risen saints have through salvation, regardless of what is arrayed against them. He is reminding the believer of the security that exists “in Christ.” Whilst justification is an act (when we are spiritually redeemed) and glorification also an act (when we are physically redeemed), sanctification is a process of making us more like Christ. In all three experiences Christ holds a firm grip upon His people. He looks after them, and sustains them along the way. Christ therefore has “delivered,” (past tense) “doth deliver” (currently) and “will yet deliver” (future tense) Hi sheep.

So the allusion to “God which raiseth the dead” is talking in a broad sense about the day of salvation (the here-and-now). It describes the ongoing spiritual process secured through Christ’s glorious resurrection from the dead. For someone to move from death and the grave (in either the natural or the spiritual) to life (natural or spiritual) requires resurrection.

The same word repeatedly applied to Christ’s physical resurrection in the New Testament – egeiro – is here again used spiritually to describe the spiritual resurrection of the believer from the reality of spiritual death. It shows a present realisation and victorious triumph over that state in this testimony of Paul. This reading does not at all indicate that the believer will not experience natural death, no, but rather, that he wouldn’t experience spiritual death. It positively outlines that through the spiritual (or first) resurrection the believer is rescued from entering into the awful realisation of the second death (eternal punishment).

Colossians 2:10-14 says, “ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ‘ye are risen with him’ (or) sunegeiro (Strong’s 4891) through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised (or) egeiro (Strong’s 1453) him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened (or) suzoopoieo (Strong’s 4806) together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

This explicit passage describes the act of salvation as a resurrection feat. Moreover, the raising of the forgiven child of God in resurrection power in salvation is in turn carefully identified with, and connected to, Christ’s glorious resurrection. It confirms that our hearts “are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ” in salvation, and likens this supernatural work to a death, burial and resurrection. This reading shows how the child of God is “buried with him,” “quickened together with him,” and finally “risen with him.”

Before salvation we are carnally alive, but spiritually dead. Our natural man is alive and kicking but our spiritual man is totally unresponsive. So in order to shift from death to life our spiritual man must first experience the quickening power (or life giving touch) of the Holy Spirit in which our blind spiritual eyes are opened in order for us to see as God sees. In this he sees sin for what it is, putrid, ugly and destructive. He see that sin is an offence to God and that it must be punished. The Holy Spirit then shows the penitent sinner the way out – Jesus Christ and His shed blood at Calvary. He then trades His sin for Christ’s righteousness in salvation whereupon he is raised from the grave of his sin.

Salvation is a supernatural act in which God breathes spiritual life into the sinner through regeneration. He quickens the corpse through the work of the Spirit, enabling the sinner to recognise his plight and cry out for mercy. The sinner surrenders all confidence in self (he dies to self) and acknowledges his need of Christ. Spiritual resurrection results.

 

[sovereigngrace]

And speaking of that happening millions of times like that, that obviously means the following also has to happen each of those times---And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them. Can't divorce that part from the first resurrection. If the first resurrection is not a one time event, but is an event that occurs millions of times throughout a 2000 years period, why would this part be a one time event, then?

It is! It happened 2000 years ago. There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

 

[sovereigngrace]

We were in agreement all the way until you said:


The transition to life physically is by resurrection from death. The transition to life spiritually is through birth - being born of the Spirit of Christ. It's not a "resurrection from (our) death" but we are raised with Christ by virtue of our birth into Christ. We also die with Him:

Romans 6:3 Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
Romans 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.

How did we die with Christ when we were baptized into His death? Spiritually? We could not have died spiritually because we were never alive spiritually before being born of His Spirit.

Christ died, so the moment we are born into Him by His Spirit, we die with Him and are raised with Him.

We do not agree regarding your claim that the above fact constitutes our so-called "spiritual resurrection" so there is no point in becoming angry over it. We will argue about it ad infinitum.


Yes - by virtue of our birth by the Spirit of God - just as you continue below:


It's all true, and praise God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ for all of it - but none of the above = "we were spiritually resurrected" - it's all ours by virtue of the fact that through our faith we are born of the Spirit of Christ. These very scriptures you use do not prove or even imply that we are "resurrected" spiritually at the time of our spiritual birth.


When did we receive our immortal spirits? Is there not a difference between psuche (soul) and spirit (pneuma), as in the following verse?:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 and the God of the peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit (pneuma), and soul (psuche), and body (soma), be preserved unblameably in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ;

You have answered the question below:


Praise be to God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, It's all thanks to Him:


None of the above facts however, even imply that our spiritual birthday was also our "spiritual resurrection" - so as can be seen from all these facts, you have read into the following verses a so-called 'spiritual resurrection" which did not occur when we were born of the Spirit, because we were born of the Spirit, not "resurrected":


Jesus stated that those who are faithful unto death will not be hurt by the second death - why do you attempt to change what JESUS said by leaving out the part which shows the context just because it's convenient to your false assumption?:

Be not afraid of the things that thou art about to suffer; lo, the devil is about to cast of you to prison, that ye may be tried, and ye shall have tribulation ten days; become thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the crown of the life. He who is having an ear--let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: He who is overcoming may not be injured of the second death. Revelation 2:10-11.

Jesus was saying that He who remains faithful regarding his testimony to Jesus unto death will not be hurt by the second death - but I see you conveniently attempt to change the meaning by leaving out part of what the Lord said in those two verses and therefore, the context.

So once again, you're left with the hapless position of trying to find other scriptures which do not prove anyone was "resurrected spiritually" when they were born spiritually. But you're never going to find them, because they don't exist.

I will resubmit this, as it was carefully avoided by you and other Premils here and on another thread. This is further supporting evidence to support my above contention.

It is a scriptural fact, for someone to move from death and the grave (in the natural or the spiritual) to life (of either type) requires of necessity resurrection. By our very union with Christ and the victory He has already wrought for us over death we enter into the triumph of both spiritual and physical resurrection. Upon conversion we are immediately raised from spiritual death by way of spiritual resurrection. We are born again (or born from above) by being raised from the grave of sin and debauchery. It is the resurrection of the spirit that causes the new birth. When resurrected our spirits are brought from death to life, this causes a new spiritually birth within our being.

When viewing this subject we must always remember, we are body, soul and spirit. The dead area within the human being prior to conversion is the spirit. The body is alive and the soul (the old man) is alive but the spiritual part of him – his spirit – is dead. It is therefore the dead spirit that is (1) quickened, and (2) resurrected from its death that begets life and therefore a new nature or a living spiritual man. The work of the Holy Spirit in sanctification is then a process of bringing body and soul into subjection of that live spirit.

The wording relating to this spiritual resurrection – “ye are risen with him” – is translated from the Greek word sunegeiro (Strong’s 4891), which is derived from the coupling of two other Greek words sun (Strong’s 4862) – denoting union and togetherness, and egeiro (Strong’s 1453), which means to awaken or resurrect from the dead. This word egeiro is constantly used in the New Testament in reference to Christ’s physical resurrection.

Also, the word rendered “quickened” in the above passage is translated from the Greek word suzoopoieo (Strong’s 4806), which is derived from combining the words sun (Strong’s 4862) with zoopoíeo (Strong’s 2227), meaning to make alive, give life and revitalize. Hence, we can see the deep meaning of this word in the aforementioned passage and the essential work that is perfected in the penitent sinner in regeneration.

Many new birth passages in Scripture are surrounded in resurrection terminology. Notwithstanding, they are not in any way referring to a physical resurrection, although, often, using the same type of language that accompanies literal ones. These references repeatedly describe spiritually dead men being spiritually made alive by being first spiritually quickened and then spiritually resurrected from the grave of their sin. This reading plainly outlines how the penitent sinner is raised with the exact same supernatural power that raised Christ at His resurrection, saying, “ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”

Colossians 2:10-14 therefore proves that there is a resurrection in the New Testament that precedes both natural death and the physical resurrection. Moreover, it is a resurrection that has an absolute bearing on ones ultimate place in eternity generally and the lake of fire (the second death) in particular. It is a resurrection that if missed unquestionably results in eternal fire. It is a resurrection that wonderfully frees a man from the awful (deserved) penalty of eternal punishment and eternity in the lake of fire.

Colossians 3:1-4 goes on to add, “If ‘ye then be risen with’ (or) sunegeiro (Strong’s 4891) Christ (speaking in the present tense about those who have experienced spiritual resurrection in Christ), seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear (speaking of the second coming), then shall ye also appear with him in glory (referring to the physical resurrection which is future tense).”

There are two distinct resurrections outlined in this reading, the first being spiritual and the second being physical. The initial resurrection of necessity sees a spiritual change, whereas, the second resurrection of necessity requires a physical change. Interestingly, the Greek word sunegeiro is again used here to describe the spiritual resurrection of the penitent sinner through union with Christ. No one could surely dismiss the current reality of the resurrection outlined at the beginning of the above passage. Moreover, those that have experienced the aforementioned resurrection are then instructed to “seek” and “set their affection” upon “those things which are above” – spiritual actions that are to be performed in this scene of time. The key to experiencing the reality of this current resurrected life is found in the concluding part of the reading that our earthly life is “hid with Christ in God.”

The resurrection mentioned in this reading must of necessity precede the physical resurrection at Christ’s Coming. The physical resurrection is still future, whereas the spiritual resurrection is depicted here as current and ongoing. The coming of Christ, and the physical resurrection that accompanies it, is anticipated in this reading as a future event – the time when we shall yet “appear with him in glory.” Those that are described here as being presently “risen with Christ” enter into the resurrection life long before physical resurrection day (the day that the Premillennialists argue witnesses the first resurrection). Whilst there is no actual reference in the Bible to “a second resurrection,” commentators from all the respective eschatological camps concede that there is (at very least) a second resurrection, albeit they differ greatly on its nature, timing and who it applies to.

Ephesians 2:1-6 also says, “you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, ‘hath quickened us together’ (or) suzoopoieo (Strong’s 4806) with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath ‘raised us up together’ (or) sunegeiro (Strong’s 4891) and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

The same two Greek words found in Colossians 2:10-14 are also used in this reading to describe the spiritual resurrection. Again, the word rendered “quickened” here in Ephesians 2 is the Greek word suzoopoieo, which indicates a uniting to Christ in mystical union by means of being spiritually revitalized and made alive. The Greek word sunegeiro carries the meaning of union with Christ through resurrection. It is also in the aorist active demonstrating that it relates to the present. All sane theologians know that is not therefore not talking about physical resurrection.

The quickening of the spiritually dead life results in a consequential spiritual resurrection. Resurrection cannot plainly occur unless God in His providence reaches down in supernatural quickening power and imputes spiritual life into a spiritually dead man.

This reading undoubtedly describes a resurrection of the dead which occurs long before physical resurrection. It must thus be a spiritual resurrection. Moreover, it is a resurrection that was performed whilst we were expressly “dead in sins.” The reading tells us that God “hath raised us” – the elect of God – “up.” This resurrection narrative is speaking exclusively of salvation, as is seen in the whole import of the passage. After describing this spiritual revitalization, the writer deliberately inserts (so as to eliminate any possible ambiguity): “by grace ye are saved.” How then could any Premillennialist deny that this raising from the dead outlined here is not spiritual? We must ask such: are all these aforementioned references to death ‘spiritual death’ or ‘natural death’?

Here the sinner that was once spiritually dead is now spiritually resurrected by the supernatural resurrection power of the Lord Jesus Christ; God has firstly “quickened” us and secondly “raised us up.” We are hence raised from the grave of our sin at conversion, which is a spiritual resurrection, into a newness of life (Romans 7:6). One wonders how anyone could reasonably interpret such explicit terms like “raised us up” in Ephesians 2 and “ye are risen” in Colossians 2:10-14 to mean anything other than a spiritual resurrection?

Ephesians 2:1 literally reads:

you humás
were óntas
dead nekroús
in toís
trespasses paraptoómasin
and kaí
the taís
sins hamartíais

The Lord is not simply equating the spiritual condition of a man outside of salvation to the physically dead; he is speaking of an actual real experiential condition of death than is common to all unregenerate men. It is a spiritual reality. It doesn’t merely say ‘we were similar to the dead in sins’, no; it says “we were dead in sins.” This death is obviously not physical as it is speaking of the alive. It is spiritual. For a man to be brought from death to life in the natural requires resurrection, likewise, to be brought from death to life in the spiritual requires resurrection. This occurs by the dead sinner being spiritually quickened and then spiritually raised.

Romans 4:17 says, speaking of that great father of the faith Abraham, “(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth (or) zoopoieo (Strong’s 2227) the dead, and calleth those things which be not (unbelieving Gentiles) as though they were (the people of God).”

Again, the word rendered “quickened” in the above passage is translated from the original word zoopoieo meaning to make alive, give life and revitalize. It is the same word used in Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 3:1, only it is prefixed there by the Greek word sun in those passages. This passage is describing how God breathed spiritual life into the once darkened Gentile nations, and brought them into a personal relationship with the living God. Those within the nations that received God’s provision for sin and uncleanness were then immediately brought from a condition of spiritual death unto a state of spiritual life through the precious work of Christ at Calvary. This quickening of the Gentiles is therefore plainly not just a future hope but a joyous present reality.

In the new birth, the nature of Christ is imputed into the believer thus raising him up from a spiritual grave into a real living communion with God. I John 3:14 succinctly explains, “We know that we have passed from death unto life.” How? This text makes it clear that the death that is conquered here in the-here-and-now is assuredly not physical but spiritual death. The sinner that believes (and is thus born again of the Spirit of God) has entered into the realisation of the first resurrection in this life and will one day be physically raised at the second resurrection unto life.

Keeping in mind the awful separation that occurred when Adam spiritually died when he partook of the forbidden fruit in the garden, and allowing for the fact that all mankind was represented in Adam in that fall, we now see the great reconciliation that is realised between God and man through Christ in the act of salvation. The sinner is made spiritually alive and brought into mystical union with God through the person and work of Christ, by supernaturally receiving life and by being spiritually revitalized.

Conclusion

We have seen how the Greek word anastasis (Strongs 386), used in Revelation 20 to describe the first resurrection, is related to the new birth in several New Testament passages. We have seen how its root meaning anistemi (Strongs 450) is also related to the new birth experience. We have seen how other similar resurrection words like egeiro (Strong’s 1453) and zoopoíeo (Strong’s 2227) are also identified with the first spiritual resurrection.

 

[DavidPT]

It is it happened 2000 years ago. There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

But Christ is not the one living again in Revelation 20:4, the martyrs are.

Can you maybe paraphrase Revelation 20:4 and verse 6 and show with the text how you are applying this to Christ's resurrection?

Verse 5 indicates this is the first resurrection, obviously meaning this in verse 4---And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them---and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. And in verse 6 this first resurrection is still meaning these same martyrs in verse 4, which then means, if these martyrs in verse 4 are reigning a thousand years in heaven like Amils claim, this part has to apply as well--but they shall be priests of God and of Christ.

And another point I have brought up, since there is no proof that the 42 month reign of the beast has already happened or is currently underway, there cannot yet be any martyrs for not worshiping the beast, currently reigning in heaven if this period of time hasn't even arrived yet. Are we to then assume, in order to still make it work with Amil, assuming this 42 month reign is yet to happen, it's going to happen during the thousand years? Because that's when it would have to happen, assuming Amil, since it for sure can't happen after the thousand years if Revelation 20:4 records that they have already been martyred before then.

 

[sovereigngrace]

But Christ is not the one living again in Revelation 20:4, the martyrs are.

Can you maybe paraphrase Revelation 20:4 and verse 6 and show with the text how you are applying this to Christ's resurrection?

Verse 5 indicates this is the first resurrection, obviously meaning this in verse 4---And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them---and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. And in verse 6 this first resurrection is still meaning these same martyrs in verse 4, which then means, if these martyrs in verse 4 are reigning a thousand years in heaven like Amils claim, this part has to apply as well--but they shall be priests of God and of Christ.

And another point I have brought up, since there is no proof that the 42 month reign of the beast has already happened or is currently underway, there cannot yet be any martyrs for not worshiping the beast, currently reigning in heaven if this period of time hasn't even arrived yet. Are we to then assume, in order to still make it work with Amil, assuming this 42 month reign is yet to happen, it's going to happen during the thousand years? Because that's when it would have to happen, assuming Amil, since it for sure can't happen after the thousand years if Revelation 20:4 records that they have already been martyred before then.

Revelation 20:1-5: "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

This is the authority Jesus secured through His resurrection. He cast Satan out of heaven and then restrained him with spiritual chains so that the Gospel could enlighten the nations. Satan's defeat came after the resurrection.

Through Christ's victorious "first resurrection" the dead in Christ (the souls) were released from Hades because sin had been defeated and consequently the cause of sin – death – was also defeated. The dead in Christ are therefore no longer in Abraham’s bosom since the first resurrection. They are seen in heaven reigning with Christ. Basically, as Satan was banished and the elect were welcomed.

So, it was only after the first resurrection (when sin, death, Satan and hell were defeated) and the consequential binding of Satan that the dead in Christ could be released to enter the presence of the Lord in heaven. Their part and had been secured under penalty have been paid in full.

John then generalizes in Revelation 20:6 says, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

Here, the first resurrection is outlined as the means by which men gain victory over the second death and enter into the great company that reign in Christ – both dead and alive; the redeemed reign in life and in death. In life, they are spiritually positioned in the heavenly Jerusalem, in death, they enter into the immediate presence of God and reign through Him that sits upon the throne.

This corresponds to what Jesus taught in John 11:25, saying, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

This is speaking of the resurrection life that can be enjoyed in this life through faith.

 

[sovereigngrace]

But Christ is not the one living again in Revelation 20:4, the martyrs are.

Can you maybe paraphrase Revelation 20:4 and verse 6 and show with the text how you are applying this to Christ's resurrection?

Verse 5 indicates this is the first resurrection, obviously meaning this in verse 4---And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them---and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. And in verse 6 this first resurrection is still meaning these same martyrs in verse 4, which then means, if these martyrs in verse 4 are reigning a thousand years in heaven like Amils claim, this part has to apply as well--but they shall be priests of God and of Christ.

And another point I have brought up, since there is no proof that the 42 month reign of the beast has already happened or is currently underway, there cannot yet be any martyrs for not worshiping the beast, currently reigning in heaven if this period of time hasn't even arrived yet. Are we to then assume, in order to still make it work with Amil, assuming this 42 month reign is yet to happen, it's going to happen during the thousand years? Because that's when it would have to happen, assuming Amil, since it for sure can't happen after the thousand years if Revelation 20:4 records that they have already been martyred before then.

Revelation 20:4 says, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given (bestowed, committed or delivered) unto them.”

And continues, “I saw the souls (tas psychas) of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

There are at least two groups described here:

(1) Them “that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God.”
(2) They “which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.”

All the dead saints in view have previously experienced their part in the first resurrection in life through identifying with Christ in the new birth. That is why they are now in heaven reigning after death. Their union and communion with Christ continues.

 

[claninja]

None (NOT ONE) of those statements of the apostles in the epistles which you quoted is even implying that the new birth = "spiritual resurrection". It's what you have CHOSEN to believe so you will continue to read what you have CHOSEN to believe into every verse in scripture that mentions living with Christ and rising with Christ (which only happens by virtue of our birth by the Spirit).

I’m not sure what your point is here, as we seem to be in agreement. Christ’s resurrection resulted in us being raised in spiritual newness.


having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Colossians 2:12 - Bible Gateway passage: Colossians 2:12 - English Standard Version

Is Jesus not the first resurrection?

You had to have been alive spiritually and have died spiritually in order to have been resurrected spiritually - but you were not - you were not even born spiritually alive when you came into the world so you had to be born of the Spirit.

Ok but My position is that Jesus is the 1st resurrection. Those who are in Jesus have been spiritually raised to no longer be hurt by the 2nd death.

Is Jesus not the first resurrection?

That's where you have gone wrong, and where we disagree. The Bible does not call the new birth a "resurrection".

as stated again and again. I agree the BIble never explicitly calls the new birth a resurrection.

jesus is the first resurrection. Those in Jesus have been spiritually raised to no longer be hurt by the 2nd death.

is Jesus not the first one raised from the dead to eternal life?

PS: Yes, I believe in the Trinity and know how to defend the fact of the Trinity from the Bible because I have searched the scriptures myself and found the Trinity there.

So then the argument that because something is not Specifically mentioned in scripture, then it’s not true isn’t an applicable argument. It would be hypocritical to argue the Trinity is true even though it’s not mentioned and then turn around and say being born is not a spiritual resurrection because it’s not mentioned in the Bible as such.

 

[Zao is life]

I wanted to thank you for this in one of your previous posts:

We were legally represented “in Christ” in His life, death and resurrection. It was a substitutionary mission Christ was on. Just like we were legally represented “in Adam” when He fell, we were justified in the perfect life that Christ lived, the vicarious sacrifice He made and the triumphant resurrection He secured. The Lord’s resurrection spelt defeat for all unrighteousness. Every enemy of God was defeated in the glorious resurrection from the dead.

It's a good reminder, even if we're aware of it. I found it uplifting and encouraging reading it the way you put it.

I can't reply to every point you made in all your other posts - and I'm not ducking and diving. Your posts are far too long and there is sometimes a very, very fine line between truth and error. I don't have enough time to reply to everything you say, even though you have accused me and others of "carefully avoiding it all". Your posts are mini-books.

I will resubmit this, as it was carefully avoided by you and other Premils here and on another thread. This is further supporting evidence to support my above contention.

It isn't evidence at all. Not by a long chalk. Flooding threads with long, long posts is something you might think is a clever tactic (posts which you probably already have saved somewhere, ready to just copy and paste, making a few adjustments to make them current again - because you cannot possibly draft such long posts in such a short time, unless you're a bot), but if someone does not have the time to spend hours and hours picking each one of the many fine errors in doctrinal assertions which you make, this is no proof or supporting evidence - it simply means your posts are too long.

PS: You don't always answer (and I've seen you do this many times) - you don't always answer what others post (certainly not everything other post), yet you expect everything you post to be answered.

 

[Zao is life]

I’m not sure what your point is here, as we seem to be in agreement. Christ’s resurrection resulted in us being raised in spiritual newness.

having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Colossians 2:12 - Bible Gateway passage: Colossians 2:12 - English Standard Version

Is Jesus not the first resurrection?

Was Jesus resurrected from the dead spiritually?

We are told His body was laid in a tomb, and He descended into hades. We are told that by the Spirit He preached to souls who imprisoned. We are told that He was raised by the power of the same Spirit.

Did Jesus die spiritually? Was He resurrected from the dead spiritually?

If we are raised with Him and He rose bodily, why are we not bodily raised now? When will we be raised bodily?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I wanted to thank you for this in one of your previous posts:


It's a good reminder, even if we're aware of it. I found it uplifting and encouraging reading it the way you put it.

I can't reply to every point you made in all your other posts - and I'm not ducking and diving. Your posts are far too long and there is sometimes a very, very fine line between truth and error. I don't have enough time to reply to everything you say, even though you have accused me and others of "carefully avoiding it all". Your posts are mini-books.


It isn't evidence at all. Not by a long chalk. Flooding threads with long, long posts is something you might think is a clever tactic (posts which you probably already have saved somewhere, ready to just copy and paste, making a few adjustments to make them current again - because you cannot possibly draft such long posts in such a short time, unless you're a bot), but if someone does not have the time to spend hours and hours picking each one of the many fine errors in doctrinal assertions which you make, this is no proof or supporting evidence - it simply means your posts are too long.

PS: You don't always answer (and I've seen you do this many times) - you don't always answer what others post (certainly not everything other post), yet you expect everything you post to be answered.

I answer as much as I can. I try to not avoid anything. That is why I keep polishing what I have previously studied. I have 20 years of deep research and debate on this matter. I doubt i am going to encounter some new supposed evidence of a future millennium. I moved from Premil 20 years ago because of (1) the severe lack of corroboration and (2) the multiple Scripture that show a climactic coming of Christ. The Scriptures forced me to abandon Premil. Many are doing the same. I see it online and I see it as a Pastor.

 

[claninja]

Was Jesus resurrected from the dead spiritually?

What do you mean by "spiritually"? Was Jesus raised by the Spiritual power of God? Yes, he was.

Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the deadf will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you.

Jesus was raised bodily. Jesus' resurrection is the first resurrection.

Any resurrection after Jesus' resurrection would not be the first, as Jesus was the first fruits from the dead.

We are told His body was laid in a tomb, and He descended into hades. We are told that by the Spirit He preached to souls who imprisoned. We are told that He was raised by the power of the same Spirit.

Did Jesus die spiritually? Was He resurrected from the dead spiritually?

Was Jesus spiritually dead like we are when we are born? No, I don't believe so.

Was Jesus raised from spiritual death? No

Was Jesus raised from the dead spiritually? Yes.

Jesus was raised bodily. Jesus' resurrection is the first resurrection.

Any resurrection after Jesus' resurrection would not be the first, as Jesus was the first fruits from the dead.

If we are raised with Him and He rose bodily, why are we not bodily raised now? When will we be raised bodily?

I'm trying to understand how exactly this ties into what the "first resurrection" is.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

From Scripture, we know that Jesus was the FIRST to rise from the dead.

1 corinthians 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Paul even specifically gives us the order of the resurrection: Christ, THE FIRST, then at his coming, those who belong to Christ.

1 corinthians 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

NOTICE, revelation states that blessed and holy are those who PARTAKE or SHARE in the first resurrection. So according to scripture what happens to those who partake or share in Christ's death and resurrection?

1.) We are raised from being dead in our sins.
colossians 2:12-13 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses.

Ephesians 2:5-6 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

2.) We walk in newness of life
Romans 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

3.) We are a new creation
2 corinthians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!

5.) The 2nd death does not hurt us.
John 11:26 And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Revelation 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.

4.) We are a kingdom of priests to God.
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

 

[Zao is life]

I answer as much as I can. I try to not avoid anything. That is why I keep polishing what I have previously studied. I have 20 years of deep research and debate on this matter. I doubt i am going to encounter some new supposed evidence of a future millennium. I moved from Premil 20 years ago because of (1) the severe lack of corroboration and (2) the multiple Scripture that show a climactic coming of Christ. The Scriptures forced me to abandon Premil. Many are doing the same. I see it online and I see it as a Pastor.

Well I've now done my own study of the Greek words egeiro and anastasis, and have now also searched all (each and every one of) the New Testament passages and verses containing the English words rise again, risen, resurrection, raised etc, and all reference to the resurrection in the New Testament wherever they are found in the New Testament and have found the reading of a "spiritual resurrection" into (eisegesis) the New Testament's statements regarding our birth from above by the Spirit, and our resurrection from the dead, to be 100% false, 100% eisegesis, and, 0% Christianity;

and since I always choose to believe only the Word of God, I won't be wasting time reading your long, long, long "dissertations" in this regard, or replying to them.

By the way, it's totally clear and plain what anastasis (resurrection) refers to in the New Testament each and every time the word appears; and it's totally clear and plain in all the passages and verses containing the Greek word egeiro, and in all references to being raised up, and in all references to the resurrection from the dead (without exception) that the verses (as well as the Greek word egeiro) are either not referring to any "resurrection" at all, or are referring to the Lord's bodily resurrection from the dead, or are referring to the future bodily resurrection of those who have been born from above by the Spirit of Christ and have been buried with Him and raised with Him because they are IN Him.

Which proves once again that neither historic Christian teaching/historic Christian understanding, nor Pastors and teachers necessarily know what they are talking about when they "espouse" the scriptures, but are, in certain respects, instead often espousing nothing but their own eisegesis of the scriptures which, as in this case and your false claims regarding a "spiritual resurrection" is 100% false, 100% eisegesis and 0% Christianity.

It's no wonder Jesus said,

Mat 23:8 But you must not be called Rabbi, for One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers.
Matt 23:9 And call no one your father on the earth, for One is your Father in Heaven.
Matt 23:10 Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ.

 

[Zao is life]

What do you mean by "spiritually"? Was Jesus raised by the Spiritual power of God? Yes, he was.

Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the deadf will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you.

Jesus was raised bodily. Jesus' resurrection is the first resurrection.

Any resurrection after Jesus' resurrection would not be the first, as Jesus was the first fruits from the dead.





Was Jesus spiritually dead like we are when we are born? No, I don't believe so.

Was Jesus raised from spiritual death? No

Was Jesus raised from the dead spiritually? Yes.

Jesus was raised bodily. Jesus' resurrection is the first resurrection.

Any resurrection after Jesus' resurrection would not be the first, as Jesus was the first fruits from the dead.



I'm trying to understand how exactly this ties into what the "first resurrection" is.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

From Scripture, we know that Jesus was the FIRST to rise from the dead.

1 corinthians 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Paul even specifically gives us the order of the resurrection: Christ, THE FIRST, then at his coming, those who belong to Christ.

1 corinthians 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

NOTICE, revelation states that blessed and holy are those who PARTAKE or SHARE in the first resurrection. So according to scripture what happens to those who partake or share in Christ's death and resurrection?

1.) We are raised from being dead in our sins.
colossians 2:12-13 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses.

Ephesians 2:5-6 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

2.) We walk in newness of life
Romans 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

3.) We are a new creation
2 corinthians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!

5.) The 2nd death does not hurt us.
John 11:26 And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Revelation 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.

4.) We are a kingdom of priests to God.
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

Did Jesus die spiritually and was He raised from the dead spiritually, or bodily?

He did not die spiritually. He was raised from the dead bodily, by the Holy Spirit of God (His Spirit). So what makes us so special that when we are born of the Spirit we are resurrected spiritually?

I refer you to my post #138. I'm not wasting more time answering the eisegesis of people who prefer the eisegesis of scripture they have come to believe to the point of being brainwashed by it.

This thread was hijacked long ago by people posting long, long, long dissertations containing nothing but eisegesis, and then complaining that those who can see their error do not reply to all their eisegesis and in so doing helping them to continue to hijack the thread.

PS: Check this thread's title.

 

[claninja]

This thread was hijacked long ago by people posting long, long, long dissertations containing nothing but eisegesis, and then complaining that those who can see their error do not reply to all their eisegesis and in so doing helping them to continue to hijack the thread.

PS: Check this thread's title.

If you don’t believe Jesus is the first fruits from the dead, i can understand why you believe this doesn’t relate to the Op.

But those who believe Jesus’ resurrection was the first have no issue with its relation to the OP.

Did Jesus die spiritually and was He raised from the dead spiritually, or bodily?

answered in post 139.

He did not die spiritually. He was raised from the dead bodily.

correct. We are in agreement. I stated this post 139. Did you not read it?

I refer you to my post #138. I'm not wasting more time answering the eisegesis of people who prefer the eisegesis of scripture they have come to believe to the point of being brainwashed by it.

wait, so those who believe Jesus is the first resurrection which resulted in those who partake in it to become born again to never be hurt by the 2nd death Are practicing eisegesis and have been brainwashed? I thought believing in Jesus for eternal life was a core part of Christianity?

it Seems you are teaching a new form of Christianity not taught by Jesus or the apostles, which I thoroughly reject. Either that or you are creating straw man arguments against what I believe. In that case please actually address what I post per forum rules instead of generically spouting of “eisegesis” or “brainwashed”. It’s not fruitful for the conversation.