Jesus prophesied that we would be keeping the Sabbath until He returns in Matthew 24

[John Mullally]

Wow now you are going to misquote Romans 8:2.

Ha! Ha! I did not quote Romans 8:2. But it might do you good to read the Acts 15.

 

[HIM]

Ha! Ha! I did not quote Romans 8:2. But it might do you good to read the Acts 15.

Something funny.

So witnessing is a game to you?

And you are here to make sport and belittle?

Acts 15:23-29, which is repeated by Paul years later (Acts 21:24-25) frees Gentile believers from needing to keep most of the ceremonial Jewish Law. Per Romans 8:2, rejoice!

per Romans 8:2? As if Roman’s 8:2 is the go to support your claim.

Like was said you are misquoting it. Because it does not say in any form what you are implying.

 

[John Mullally]

Something funny.

So witnessing is a game to you?

And you are here to make sport and belittle?
per Romans 8:2? As if Roman’s 8:2 is the go to support your claim.

Like was said you are misquoting it. Because it does not say in any form what you are implying.

Per Romans 8:2 Did the spirit make you free, or are you under sin and death?

And if the spirit made you free, why do you persist in misrepresenting what I say - by saying I misquoted Romans 8:2? Ha! Ha! The joy of the Lord!

 

[HIM]

Ha! Ha! The joy of the Lord!

As a Christian is it okay to lie? To bear a false witness?

 

[HIM]

Per Romans 8:2 Did the spirit make you free, or are you under sin and death?

And if the spirit made you free, why do you persist in misrepresenting what I say - by saying I misquoted Romans 8:2?

Because you are wrong in your interpretation. You are misusing Romans 8:2 because you do not understand what it is saying in the context of the passage which it is in.

Acts 15:23-29, which is repeated by Paul years later (Acts 21:24-25) frees Gentile believers from needing to keep most of the ceremonial Jewish Law. Per Romans 8:2, rejoice!

 

[Leaf473]

As a Christian is it okay to lie? To bear a false witness?

I think it's okay as long as it fits with loving your neighbor as yourself.

As an example, I think that's why most Christians say it was okay to help Jewish people during the Holocaust and lie about it.

 

[HIM]

Jesus in Matthew 24 does not instruct anyone to keep the Sabbath. Matthew 24:20 does imply that the people in Judea will be keeping the Sabbath before His coming.

No one ever said there was a command to keep the Sabbath in Matthew. And the text is not inclusive to those whom are in Judea. That is not even implied. Once again you are adding what is not there for the sake of doctrine without any contextual proof.

And Matt 24 is speaking to the Church through the destruction of the Temple up to the tribulation before His Second coming not just Jews in Judea. And in it, it gives an exhortation to pray that our flight during the tribulation prior to the gathering of the elect not be on the Sabbath.

How do we know?

For one the grammar connects verse 20 to 31 as was shown to you already. And secondly The context of the passage is in regards to the questions asked by His disciples. And they asked three. When shall these things be was asked in respect to the destruction of the Temple. What shall be the sign of His coming? And when shall the end be?

And as we know two of these answers do not directly affect the disciples so Jesus wasn't even giving the answer for their sake. He was giving the answer for the those whom will be alive during His coming and the end of this world.

To think or say any different is not even logical.

Matt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Paul says that keeping days (which includes the Sabbath) is up to the individual believer.

Romans 14:5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.​

No Sabbath mentioned in Romans 14. Stop adding to the Word of God to fit your ideology. We are not to add to or take away from the Word of God. Somethings are hard enough to understand as it is for most. Stop making it worse for them.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I think it's okay as long as it fits with loving your neighbor as yourself.

As an example, I think that's why most Christians say it was okay to help Jewish people during the Holocaust and lie about it.

I personally see it differently. I don't think we should ever comprise one of God's commandments regardless of the consequences. We see a good example with Shadrack Michadrack & Bendigo standing firm in their beliefs in God and not bowing to a false image breaking the commandment of God and God took care of them. Yes, there are examples of God's hero's of faith sinning, but they all repented and turned from their sin. The first death is not one we should be worried about which is why we should stand firm in God's Word regardless of the consequences. I would rather die in my faith in Christ and be able to stand tall when He comes, than compromise what God commands of us and run from Him when He comes. I know this sounds good in theory, so I pray for strength if/when I am put in a similar scenario.

 

[Leaf473]

I personally see it differently. I don't think we should ever comprise one of God's commandments regardless of the consequences. We see a good example with Shadrack Michadrack & Bendigo standing firm in their beliefs in God and not bowing to a false image breaking the commandment of God and God took care of them. Yes, there are examples of God's hero's of faith sinning, but they all repented and turned from their sin. The first death is not one we should be worried about which is why we should stand firm in God's Word regardless of the consequences. I would rather die in my faith in Christ and be able to stand tall when He comes, than compromise what God commands of us and run from Him when He comes. I know this sounds good in theory, so I pray for strength if/when I am put in a similar scenario.

I don't think it's about compromise, if that's what you meant to say. The scriptures tell us that the entire law is fulfilled in the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I don't think it's about compromise, if that's what you meant to say. The scriptures tell us that the entire law is fulfilled in the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself.

Love your neighbor does not mean you can break the commandments of God, which is fulfilled only when keeping not breaking. The greatest commandment is to love God with all our heart and we do that by keeping His commandments, not breaking them.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. 1 John 5:3

To interpret what you wrote that we can openly sin is not something you will find in scripture. Sin is the transgression of the law and Paul points directly to the Ten Commandments to define sin Romans 7:7

 

[HIM]

I personally see it differently. I don't think we should ever comprise one of God's commandments regardless of the consequences. We see a good example Shadrack Michadrack & Bendigo standing firm in their beliefs in God and not bowing to a false image breaking the commandment of God and God took care of them. Yes, there are examples of God's hero's of faith sinning, but they all repented and turned from their sin. The first death is not one we should be worried about which is why we should stand firm in God's Word regardless of the consequences. I would rather die in my faith in Christ and be able to stand tall when He comes, than comprise what God commands of us and run from Him when He comes. I know this sounds good in theory, so I pray for strength if/when I am put in a similar scenario.

Thanks for replying. Good luck with that and blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[HIM]

There is no scripture that says we can break the Sabbath commandment and Hebrews 4 is telling us that we need to keep the Sabbath for the people to God and the Sabbath is the door to enter into the rest in Christ when we cease from our works on the seventh day Exodus 20:8-11 just like God did from the foundation of the world Genesis 2:1-3 which God said three times He rested from His work on the seventh day which Hebrews 4:4 is a reference to.

Hello SabbathBlessings! We are with you in what you are saying except for the section in Bold. The Sabbath is not a door to enter into the Rest which is in Christ. Christ is the Door that enables us to enter into His Rest which empowers us to keep the Sabbath holy and take heed to God in respect to the Sabbath and rest from our physical labors on the Day God did and therefore sanctified for it. Please give the post to Clare that is below in regards to Hebrews 3 and 4 some consideration. If you have any question concerning it please ask.

What cannot be contested honestly is:

Hebrews 3:7-4:11 where in 4:7-11, as God rested from the work of creation, the believer ceases his efforts to gain salvation by his own works and rests in the finished work of Christ on the cross. (Hebrews 4:10)

Canaan was God's promised rest from their enemies (Joshua 1:13; Exodus 33:14; Deuteronomy 12:9-10, Deuteronomy 25:19) into which they refused to go (Numbers 14), and which God swore an oath in his anger, "They shall never enter my rest," (Hebrews 3:11, 3:18, 4:3), which is his full-time rest from his creation work (Hebrews 4:3-4).
But there still remains, apart from Canaan's promised rest, a Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:6-9).
The NT believer enters "another" (Hebrews 4:8) Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:9-11); i.e., God's own ("my," Hebrews 3:11, 4:1, 3, 5, 10) full-time (Hebrews 4:3-4) rest, in the believer's full-time salvation rest by faith (Hebrews 4:10-11).

Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law (Matthew 5:17), including the Sabbath, in whom we rest from our own work to save, and in his work which saves.

Feel free to exegete Hebrews 3:7-4:11, accounting for
1) Christian Hebrews being instructed to enter their Sabbath rest (4:1),
2) references to Canaan (3:8-9, 15-18, 4:2, 6, 8) in relation to the Sabbath,
3) God's full-time rest from his creation work (4:3-4) and
4) another Sabbath rest of "Today" remaining for the people of God (4:7-9)
all in consistency with the passage.

Making statements about a verse or verses doesn't make it true Clare. That is all you done here. You have to prove that a verse is implying something by it's grammar and context to itself and the surrounding passages and then maybe if necessary how other verses allude to the same point.

You are wrong right from the start in your first point and 2nd. Verse 4:1 is not talking about the Sabbath at all. The Sabbath is not even mentioned until verse 4 and 5. And the rest in Canaan was a shadow of the spiritual rest in which is offered us through the Gospel not the Sabbath rest which is physical. And your 4th point is just floating there as if there are no other surrounding passages.

Starting in Chapter 3 in Hebrews as you requested verse 1 starts with the word "wherefore" in the KJV. Therefore we must understand what was said before we read what is about to be shared. So what was previously stated. Well the last indicative statement was That Jesus made reconciliation for our sins and because he himself was tempted He is here to help us when we are (verse 2:17,18). So in respect to Him helping us when we are tempted. The text in chapter 3 goes on to compare this helping to that of taking care of His house which we are if we continue to hold fast the confidence, the boldness and the rejoicing of this hope of reconciliation and His helping firm, unto the end. The text goes on to say in verse 7, Wherefore, because of what was just said. Today hear His voice, harden not your hearts as they did when your Fathers tempted me for forty years. How was God tempted, grieved with the fathers, that generation. Because they always erred in their hearts and they refused to follow in my way says the Lord. So He swore they shall never enter into the Promised Land, His rest which shadowed the Gospel rest which is in Christ Jesus. (Verse 12) So take heed my Brothers and sisters LEST any of you of an evil heart of unbelief (disobedient faithlessness) depart from the Living God, hardened through the DECEITFULNESS OF SIN (verse13). For we are made partakers of Christ if we hold to our confidence, that we have been reconciled and He is there to help when we are tempted steadfast unto the end. So hardened not your hearts through the deceitfulness of sin as they did in the wilderness. For some did provoke, because of their sin. And God was grieved and their carcasses fell right there in the wilderness.( verses 16,17). So we see that they could not enter into His rest of the promise land which shadow the rest which is of Christ through the Gospel. (Verse19) because of their unbelief, their disobedient faithlessness due to their harden hearts through the deceitfulness of sin.

Then in context to that the writer goes on to say in chapter 4, Fear lest a promise left for us to enter into His rest we should come short of. Verse 2 goes on to tell us that this rest is the Gospel and that this Gospel was preached to them as well but did no good because they had an harden evil heart of unbelief due to the deceitfulness of sin as chapter 3 had concluded. However verse 3 states that they who have believe do enter into this rest which is the Gospel in Christ Jesus. And it goes on to say something that most miss. That the works for this rest which is the Gospel in Christ Jesus were finished from the foundation of the world. To prove this verse 4 goes on to say. For, because we have proof. For He spake in certain place. God only spoke in one place of the Seventh Day and that was on Mt Sinai. And of the Seventh Day He said on this wise, "And God did rest on the Seventh Day from all His works." So if God rested from all His works then the work, the plan for, and all that it would take for salvation was complete also.

Then in verse 5 the writer says something again most miss. He says, "And in this again"

In this again what?

He speaks of the Seventh Day IF they shall enter into the spiritual rest which is the Gospel in Christ Jesus. How did God speak of the Seventh Day on Mt Sinai? He spoke it on that certain day as a commandment. So we who have enter into the spiritual rest which is the Gospel are to realise that God again is speaking of the fact that He rested on the Seventh Day from all His works. But how is He speaking? verse 9 and 10 tell us.


But first in respect to the fact that some have not entered into the Rest which is the Gospel in Christ Jesus as verse one stated he continues in verse 6-8 in respect to verse 1 in a call to repentance. He says Today hear His voice, harden not your heart. For if Joshua entering into the promise land with the people was the rest then God would not have afterward spoke of the rest which is the Gospel Rest in Christ Jesus.

Then the writer goes back to verse 4 and 5 as he continues. He says in respect to God again speaking of the Seventh day that a Sabbath Keeping remains for the people of God. He says that he that has enter into the rest which is the Gospel in Christ Jesus has ALSO, in addition to ceases from their own work AS God did from His. Two SEPARATE things being mentioned. The rest which is the Gospel and a ceasing from work as God did. Since now we are partaking of the spiritual rest in Christ we can also rest physically on the Sabbath and not defile the day that we are told to keep holy through the spiritual rest we now have in Christ.

The word "as" denotes a direct comparison. That means that as God ceased from His work so so do we. God ceased from physical work and was refreshed. We are now because we have been sanctified through Christ enter the Sabbath without defiling it and rest physically as He spoke on that certain day as He did.

Take care.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hello SabbathBlessings! We are with you in what you are saying except for the section in Bold. The Sabbath is not a door to enter into the Rest which is in Christ. Christ is the Door that enables us to enter into His Rest which empowers us to keep the Sabbath holy and take heed to God in respect to the Sabbath and rest from our physical labors on the Day God did and therefore sanctified for it. Please give the post to Clare that is below in regards to Hebrews 3 and 4 some consideration. If you have any question concerning it please ask.


Take care.

On the Sabbath (the seventh day) we enter into His rest. We do not enter spiritual rest on any other day according to this passage.

Hebrews 4:10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

So we must cease from our work (the door/Sabbath) to enter into the rest in Christ. God only rested (ceased from work) on the seventh day, Hebrews 4:4, Genesis 2:1-3. The Sabbath is the seventh day according to God Exodus 20:10 and the day He commanded us to cease our work. Exodus 20:8-11

So one must cease from their work on the Sabbath just like God did to enter into His rest.

Are you disagreeing we do not enter into His rest on the Sabbath (seventh day) or is it just the term I used the door in which we enter into Christ's rest is the Sabbath (seventh day). To me the Sabbath is about Christ because its the day that we are to do His ways and not our own so by keeping the Sabbath holy (door) it allows us to enter into His spiritual rest. I see a correlation between this and Isaiah 58:13-14.

I guess I see it a little differently than you. We need to make the first step in obedience to Him and in doing so He gives us the power to obey Him. I don't see the passage as He gives us rest first before we make the step to cease from our works on the seventh day, which means to keep the Sabbath Exodus 20:8-11

 

[eleos1954]

Au contraire. . .
It means new in quality. . .and new in form. . .of a different nature, all of which are new, and none of which are a re-newal.

The Old Covenant was bilateral and based on law-keeping, while
the New Covenant is unilateral and based on faith/grace.
Grace is not a "renewal" of law-keeping, in the NT grace is opposed to law-keeping.

We are saved by God's grace (grace is the ground and agency of our salvation) through faith, which is the means by which we receive the gift of salvation.

Romans 3:31

New Living Translation
Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.

Salvation was by grace through faith in the Old Testament, the same as today. They looked forward to the coming Messiah; we look back to the cross.

Compliance to the law of God in the Old Testament could be summed up in these words; “Do or die.” In the New Testament: “Die and do.”

The gospel message was given throughout the Old Testament and in the New Testament as well; from Genesis to Revelation.

Galatians 3:24
So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Still the same today ... the law is written on everyone's heart. Else how can God judge rightly?

There is nothing wrong with God's law .... that He should do away with it. If not for the law we would not know what sin is ... and could therefore not be led to repentance.

We cannot become holy on our own. God gives us his spirit to help us obey his word. He gives us the power to overcome sin.

The law leads us to Christ and then Christ leads us back to the law and helps us to uphold it (His works .... not ours) ... He helps us to overcome sin (by His grace) ... sin is transgression of the law.

It is about reliance on Christ ... the old covenant was the fault of the people not relying on God, no fault with the law ... the people were relying on their own ability to keep the law rather than relying on God. The fault of the people is they did not ask God to help them keep covenant with Him and rather depended on themselves.

Exodus 24:7
Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people, who replied, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient."

Nothing has changed .... we are to rely on God to help us become obedient (overcome sin) and we are thankful and praise Him when He helps us do that.

No ... the new covenant is NOT opposed to the law ... the law is good and holy.

Romans 7:12

King James Bible
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

 

[eleos1954]

The NT trumps the OT as things are not static and as the OT was written to the Jews, but the NT was written to NT believers. New Covenant means exactly that. I say that per the Apostles, Gentile believers do not need to keep most of the Mosaic Law based upon Acts 15:23-29 and later repeated in Acts 21:24-25. I would be interested in how you interpret the text in bold from Paul below:

Acts 21:24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”​

Per Jewish scholars the Mosaic law includes the 10 commandments. What is Paul getting at - saying the Gentile believers only need to keep four ordinances from the Mosaic law? Is he cancelling most of the 10 commandments? Jewish scholars say the 10 commandments are part of the Mosaic law. Are you going to reply by repeating OT directives - thus ignoring Paul who wrote half of the NT? Are you going to examine what Paul states without prejudice?

Jesus and the apostles taught from the OT ....
Acts 21

25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they must abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality.”

so this is all Gentile believers are to adhere to? Ok for them to murder, covet, bear false witness etc? Of course not.

His word and precepts are to be put in the light of His entire word.

 

[Leaf473]

Love your neighbor does not mean you can break the commandments of God, which is fulfilled only when keeping not breaking. The greatest commandment is to love God with all our heart and we do that by keeping His commandments, not breaking them.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. 1 John 5:3

To interpret what you wrote that we can openly sin is not something you will find in scripture. Sin is the transgression of the law and Paul points directly to the Ten Commandments to define sin Romans 7:7

I believe the commandments of God are fulfilled when you are loving your neighbor as yourself.

So it's not openly sinning, it's obeying.

I'll be glad to discuss keeping the commandments of God, but I think it's going to be difficult to discuss the commandments of God unless you say what you believe those commandments are.

 

[Leaf473]

On the Sabbath (the seventh day) we enter into His rest. We do not enter spiritual rest on any other day according to this passage.

Hebrews 4:10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

So we must cease from our work (the door/Sabbath) to enter into the rest in Christ. God only rested (ceased from work) on the seventh day, Hebrews 4:4, Genesis 2:1-3. The Sabbath is the seventh day according to God Exodus 20:10 and the day He commanded us to cease our work. Exodus 20:8-11

So one must cease from their work on the Sabbath just like God did to enter into His rest.

Are you disagreeing we do not enter into His rest on the Sabbath (seventh day) or is it just the term I used the door in which we enter into Christ's rest is the Sabbath (seventh day). To me the Sabbath is about Christ because its the day that we are to do His ways and not our own so by keeping the Sabbath holy (door) it allows us to enter into His spiritual rest. I see a correlation between this and Isaiah 58:13-14.

I guess I see it a little differently than you. We need to make the first step in obedience to Him and in doing so He gives us the power to obey Him. I don't see the passage as He gives us rest first before we make the step to cease from our works on the seventh day, which means to keep the Sabbath Exodus 20:8-11

No spiritual rest on any day except the Sabbath? That's an interesting idea.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I believe the commandments of God are fulfilled when you are loving your neighbor as yourself.

So it's not openly sinning, it's obeying.

I'll be glad to discuss keeping the commandments of God, but I think it's going to be difficult to discuss the commandments of God unless you say what you believe those commandments are.

Can you love God by lying, stealing, worshipping other gods, bowing to images, not keeping His Sabbath holy, not honoring our father or mother, coveting etc.

Not according to scripture:

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandment 1 John 5:3
If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15
Showing mercy to thousands who love Me and keep My commandants Exodus 20:6

The scriptures disagree with you here. And to think to do these things is not sinning, does not come from scripture. 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7 Romans 3:20, Hebrews 10:26-30, Matthew 5:19-30, James 2:10-12

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No spiritual rest on any day except the Sabbath? That's an interesting idea.

We are blessed when we are in obedience to God.

 

[BobRyan]

Acts 15:23-29 identifies the decision from the Apostles written as a letter to the Gentiles

I am pretty sure we all agreed to that already.

So also do all the Bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations (on BOTH sides to the Sabbath debate) agree on that point - even as they all affirm that all TEN of the Ten commandments are included in the moral law of God

- the rest is deliberations - which is merely historic.

deliberations that are "IN CONTEXT" of what is actually happening with gentiles in the Synagogues every Sabbath. (even the non-Christian gentiles in those synagogues as we see in Acts 13,17,18)

Its like congress negotiating over legislation - the only pertinent part is the passed bill - it matters not how they got there.

If you want to understand something in the Bible - ignoring exegesis (which seem to be arguing for) is a great way to open the floodgates of eisegesis.

So regardless of whether the Gentiles are hearing scriptures weekly, the decision of Acts 15:23-29 applies

True they are to refrain from those things listed ... regardless.

But as soon as you eisegete the rule that by extreme inference gentiles should then be free to delete/ignore all of scripture if it is not in those 5 verses - you end up with "not a sin for gentiles to dishonor parents or to take God's name in vain".

they are not required to keep anything in scripture if it is not specified in the 5 sentence letter -- is the kind of teaching that the Bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations reject.

But I continue to like that you are willing to state the singular nature of your suggestion so clearly and repeatedly so the readers can do the comparison.