Jesus' Primary Purpose

[miknik5]

Ah yeah. That sounds right

How else can one be treated if they don't go...to the...hospital

 

[juvenissun]

I understand that to mean that god's idea of solving the problem of people who engage in sin is to only deal with people who "see" him. IMO this is like saying we are going to solve the problem of cancer by only treating those who come to the hospital. And I guess proclaim the matter taken care of?

In fact, yes. I only want to treat those who are willing to seek help in hospital. Others who do not trust the hospital are not my problem.

I think the logic is simple, clear, and is 100% correct.

 

[Khalliqa]

In fact, yes. I only want to treat those who are willing to seek help in hospital. Others who do not trust the hospital are not my problem.

I think the logic is simple, clear, and is 100% correct.

When there is a disease that has mestastized itself into large swathes of the population I am aware that our current health profession is known to study diverse cultures and bring the cure to them in a way they can accept in an effort to yield the greatest acceptance. I find that a good thing. I find it sound ethics to utilize whatever resources we have to prevent great suffering.. especially when we go out of our way to bring new information to diverse cultures in a way that makes sense to their unique understanding of the world.. we become partners in problem solving for their own benefit rather than outsiders forcing our way unto them..

Since our dialogue is predicated on the idea that sin is actually a bad thing and god has the cure an all powerful god would be seen as selfish or even cruel to have a hand in allowing sin to exist and only assisting those who see him.. unless I have it wrong that your god is seen as all powerful.. or something.. I could be wrong about that.. and am open to correction..

But in reality.. Since I suspect that I do not share your views on sin.. or the cure....I'm not entirely mad at your response.. I'd hope that this idea of only serving those with a predisposition to worship him would reduce proselytizing the world over...

 

[juvenissun]

Since our dialogue is predicated on the idea that sin is actually a bad thing and god has the cure an all powerful god would be seen as selfish or even cruel to have a hand in allowing sin to exist and only assisting those who see him..

You misunderstand your own scenario. God has the cure. But the patient has to accept the cure. If a patient refused to take the cure, God CAN NOT cure him. (God has many things He can not do. This is one of them.)

Do you accept God? You don't.
That answers the question.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I would say for you to read John 8 and mahe a right judgement

I just told you that that person went out and honestly went seeking and found Allah instead of Jawhe.

In the process of seeking, that person read the scriptures of other religions as well. Which would include John 8 and the rest of the bible.

So, same question: what would you say to that person?

 

[Khalliqa]

You misunderstand your own scenario. God has the cure. But the patient has to accept the cure. If a patient refused to take the cure, God CAN NOT cure him. (God has many things He can not do. This is one of them.)

Your position is that god is not interested in assisting those who cannot see him. That's not a situation where someone is refusing a cure, it's a situation where he has not revealed himself. He has not made himself accessible. He has a solution to the problem he created and is only doling it out to those who he reveals himself to.

Similarly, if a cancer patient is unaware of or unable to get to a hospital .. in the real world scientists have in some cases chosen to make the cure accessible to those who need it.. and in some cases required the population to take the cure. So I've no doubt that if there were a cure for cancer it would not be limited only to those who have the resources to get to it.

In addition, according to you, god's idea of solving a problem is to sit back and let mayhem take place and punish those - partially reared in , influenced by and created by the environment he passively allows to exist.

I see no reason why this is a good thing. Let alone the question of whether or not god exists in the first place.

Do you accept God? You don't.
That answers the question.

No more than you've accepted Vishnu or Thor

 

[juvenissun]

Your position is that god is not interested in assisting those who cannot see him.

I wonder why are you still not getting it.

I said: God is not interested in assisting those who do not want to see Him.

If you WANT to see Him, He WILL assist you.

 

[bling]

I wonder why are you still not getting it.

I said: God is not interested in assisting those who do not want to see Him.

If you WANT to see Him, He WILL assist you.

I am in agreement with Khalliqa’s Logic in assessing the issue.

You make the problem out to be sin and God not helping resolve this problem (Khalliqa also see God as being partly responsible for sin) and you just say He can’t without any explanation.

The problem goes back to the same problem Adam and Eve had in that they cannot fulfill their earthly objective without first sinning and God even though He is all powerful cannot fulfill the objective for us.

Sin thus has purpose in helping humans to fulfill the first part of their objective.

 

[miknik5]

I just told you that that person went out and honestly went seeking and found Allah instead of Jawhe.

In the process of seeking, that person read the scriptures of other religions as well. Which would include John 8 and the rest of the bible.

So, same question: what would you say to that person?

What should I say to that person?

 

[miknik5]

I am in agreement with Khalliqa’s Logic in assessing the issue.

You make the problem out to be sin and God not helping resolve this problem (Khalliqa also see God as being partly responsible for sin) and you just say He can’t without any explanation.

The problem goes back to the same problem Adam and Eve had in that they cannot fulfill their earthly objective without first sinning and God even though He is all powerful cannot fulfill the objective for us.

Sin thus has purpose in helping humans to fulfill the first part of their objective.

Their earthly objectives being?,,

 

[juvenissun]

Sin thus has purpose in helping humans to fulfill the first part of their objective.

God gives His creatures free will. Thus sin exists. So, yes, the existence of sin is a part of God's plan.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

What should I say to that person?

You've succesfully repeated my question.
Do you also have an answer?

 

[bling]

Their earthly objectives being?,,

This messed up world is not here for your pleasure, but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.



So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes, since that force compels even God to do all He does) and thus we become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time:

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)



This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).



An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision without the selection being worthy of anything (it is a gift of pure charity).



This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.



Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.



All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.

That is an introduction to a huge topic.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Is to be worshipped?
Forgive sins of humanity?
Serve as an example?

Of course many would say all three but I'm asking for you to choose the main function or role..

Because depending on the church it seems one of these will be emphasized over the other..

To redefine the traditionally-understood relationship between God and His people.

 

[Khalliqa]

I wonder why are you still not getting it.

I said: God is not interested in assisting those who do not want to see Him.

If you WANT to see Him, He WILL assist you.

Of course to be seen you have to be readily accessible through the means by which a person can see you. But I'm not sure that you really are understanding that.

Presupposing that there is a "he" that exists to "see" at all beyond our placebic desires ... In this discussion, I'm granting you the assumption that there is something that exists..

and if it does his compassion is selective based off what seems are narcissistic whims.. If you have the means to create dischord and allow it to flourish (sin) then it is untenable to wait around for those affected to "see" you in order to assist them. This presupposes of course that a sincere desire on the part of the "afflicted" is all it takes.

I am living proof that that doesn't work. But similar to how you'd expect people to "trust based off your anecdotal experience and word" that you do see god. You'd have to trust that there are those who earnestly seek him.. are good people.. and "don't". Which would make god randomly discriminate upon who he chooses to help (meaning no rhyme or reason to when he will reveal himself) or that he's there and or that he's not there and we choose to see what we wish to see.

I'm open to hearing alternatives.. because since we're going off our own experiences all of them are valid...

 

[miknik5]

You've succesfully repeated my question.
Do you also have an answer?

I don't have anything to say to that person but there is only ONE TESTIMONY

 

[miknik5]

This messed up world is not here for your pleasure, but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.



So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes, since that force compels even God to do all He does) and thus we become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time:

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)



This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).



An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision without the selection being worthy of anything (it is a gift of pure charity).



This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.



Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.



All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.

That is an introduction to a huge topic.

You have given a lot of words
But have left out what GOD has done in demonstrating HIS LOVE for us

Why would you leave out THAT PART?

 

[miknik5]

To redefine the traditionally-understood relationship between God and His people.

Redefine the traditionally understood "relationship"

Please first explain the traditionally-understood relationship

 

[TLK Valentine]

Redefine the traditionally understood "relationship"

Please first explain the traditionally-understood relationship

I believe the theological term you're looking for is "the old covenant."

Along comes Jesus offering a "new covenant." A few rules get changed; our understanding of most of the rules gets changed; his sacrifice on the cross makes it official.

 

[miknik5]

I believe the theological term you're looking for is "the old covenant."

Along comes Jesus offering a "new covenant." A few rules get changed; our understanding of most of the rules gets changed; his sacrifice on the cross makes it official.

You do understand the old covenant was just a holding place until THE ONE to whom and for whom all things came to be would come and take back what belonged to HIM from the beginning