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Featured Jesus has no DNA from Mary

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by johnnywong, Mar 7, 2019.

  1. Selene03

    Selene03 Active Member

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    She is His biological mother. If she was a surrogate, the Bible would have said so.
     
  2. johnnywong

    johnnywong Member

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  3. Selene03

    Selene03 Active Member

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    That is true. Scripture is clear that it was the woman's seed.....her DNA.

    Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.”
     
  4. johnnywong

    johnnywong Member

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    Great.
    This is exactly what I mean when I start this thread.
     
  5. Sanoy

    Sanoy Well-Known Member

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    Luke is usually taken as Mary's genealogy, though that is certainly debatable. It includes David in that genealogy. You can't acquire a viable king through adoption. And you don't get a branch of Jesse without tying it to the trunk. If you are going to exclude Marry as a blood parent then you need to fill in the gaps you just made by removing Jesus from being a blood Israelite and a viable prince to the throne of David.

    It's far simpler to take the plain and non controversial reading, that Mary was actually Jesus's blood mother. What is the purpose in imposing on the text the idea that Mary is not Jesus's blood mother? What can be accomplished in that, because all I can see is that it adds problems. If Mary serves no purpose but a womb why even bother using that method when God could create Jesus body from the dust as a grown adult? Why put her through Labor, and put all the other children born around the same time in danger, and send the whole family down to Egypt to escape Herod when it serves no purpose to do so.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  6. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    So the premise of this thread is a strawman. Who would have guessed?
     
  7. Selene03

    Selene03 Active Member

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    God doesn't break His promise. He already said "her seed". That cannot be ignored .
     
  8. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Active Member

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    I am glad you asked this question! What I said was biological fact that the MATURE ovum (egg) and the mature sperm cell each are haploid, with only 23 chromosomes each (not 46 which is what someone else said). Without going into great detail, the primary & secondary polar bodies have to do with bringing an egg of the woman to maturity, a process called oogenesis. They are by-products that deteriorate & disintegrate (not enough cytoplasm or stored nutrients to feed a developing embryo).

    . The cell that will eventually develop into a mature egg is called an oocyte. It has 92 chromosomes initially. It goes through a two stage process called meiosis (Greek term meaning: 'a lessening'). It means lessening because the original oocyte with 92 chromosomes is lessened down to just 23 in the final mature female egg or ovum.

    At first there is a diploid oocyte (92 chromosomes--4 identical pairs of chromosomes of the mother) called the primary oocyte. Meiosis I occurs in which synapsis happens & tetrads form. The initial cell now becomes the secondary oocyte (46 chromosomes) & the first polar body (46 chromosomes). The haploid (cut in two now from 92) secondary oocyte undergoes meiosis II forming what is called an ootid (now down to 23 chromosomes) & a secondary polar body(the other 23 chromosomes). The first polar body also undergoes the meiosis II process as well, forming into two polar bodies (each having 23 chromosomes) for a total of three. All three polar bodies at the end of Meiosis II disintegrate leaving only the 'ootid' which undergoes maturation & eventually matures into an ovum or egg, ready to be fertilized by a sperm cell.

    Polar bodies do not have enough cytoplasm & nutrients to support an embryo. Even if fertilized, which doesn't happen, it would not survive in humans. The reason I say it wouldn't have a high probability of being fertilized, is because these polar bodies never make it out of the ovary into the fallopian tube where the sperm meets up with the egg.

    God designed it that way in human beings! He is wise & knew man would always try to manipulate & mess with what God designed. Remember the tower of Babel? May God have mercy on those messing with what God designed as very good!

    So no, God didn't use a diploid polar body to create Jesus. He would HYPOTHETICALLY have been an abnormal female with identical pairs of 23 chromosomes from the mother, not 46 different chromosomes. I say hypothetically, because that is the speculation of this actually happening which wouldn't happen. I hope that helps and helps others to see this supposed happening in Mary's womb would not happen. Down goes another prideful presumption of man.

    And by the way, its interesting to see how the Bible describes this process in the Hebrew & Greek terms for made (born) and conceived & the seed of the man or semen.

    Yes, semen (the man's seed) is mentioned a number of times in the Bible & is shown to be the normal, necessary way for fertilization in human beings. God designed it that way as the NORMAL means of producing offspring.

    Gen 38:9 NIV But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother.

    Leviticus 15:16,18,32 When a man has an emission of semen (seed), he must bathe his whole body with water & he will be unclean till evening. If a man sleeps with a woman & has an emission of semen, both of them are to bathe with water & they will remain unclean until evening. This is the law for the one with a discharge & for the man who has a seminal emission so that he is unclean by it.

    Gen 38:18 He said, “What pledge shall I give you?” She replied, “Your signet & your cord & your staff that is in your hand.” So he gave them to her & went in to her & she CONCEIVED (was pregnant) BY HIM.

    Women were also known to be fertile & able to have children based on the woman's first menstrual cycle kicking in. The Bible refers to this in various passages also. (e.g., Lev 15:19,20,24,25; 18:19; Ezek 18:5,6)

    Evidences (plural) were also given if a husband despising his wife accuses her of unfaithfulness/not being a virgin when married. (Deut 22:13-21 with Deut 17:6)

    People emphasize procreation but deliberately or ignorantly fail to mention that God is wonderfully active in the process of conception & growth of the baby in the womb. (Psalm 139). He is the one who continues to breath life & give the spirit within each human being. God is intimately involved in EVERY PERSON BORN. That is why abortion is such a horrendous act. Praise the Lord for those who are pro-life & are active in that movement.

    The womb & a woman's reproductive organs are also talked about in the Bible.

    Psalm 139:13-16 For you formed my INWARD PARTS; you knit me together in my mother's WOMB. I praise you, for I am fearfully & wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was BEING MADE IN SECRET, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my UNFORMED SUBSTANCE; in your book were written, every one of them, THE DAYS THAT WERE FORMED FOR ME, when as yet there was none of them.

    It talks about the spirit & soul (the inward parts of man), it talks about the growth of the baby in the womb (flesh & bones), it talks about the very process of conception, when the egg is fertilized & not yet formed--unformed substance). And the amazing thing that astounds me! God has a book for every person that records every day of that person's life!

    Ecclesiastes 11:5 As you do not know the way the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who MAKES everything.

    Don't ever think that God is not intimately concerned about every person that He fashions from conception to death & considers each one wonderfully made.

    He most of all was delighted in the miraculous conception & implantation of Jesus in the womb of Mary. My unique & only begotten Son, the only Son having My same nature--as Deity; and yet a physically born baby with flesh & blood. And Jesus was actively involved in that decision with the Father & the Holy Spirit! (Isaiah 48:12,13,16) He came down from Heaven, being sent by the Father & was incarnated--made flesh.

    Gal 4:4,5 But when the appointed time had fully come, God sent forth His Son, made (born, come) OF a woman, made (born, come) UNDER the Law, to redeem those UNDER the Law, that we might receive our adoption as sons...

    What a powerful testimony of the gospel in 2 short verses! The perfect timing of Jesus' birth, both prophetically & the world He was born into. God sent forth His Son, God gave His Son...to redeem & reconcile & bring about adoption as sons, spiritually born from above, a second time.

    Then comes the issue of MADE, BORN, COME (YLT) OF a woman.

    Matt 11:11 AMONG THEM that are born of women there has not risen a greater than John the Baptist.”

    Job 14:1 “MAN--who is born of a woman--is few of days & full of trouble.

    John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh IS FLESH & that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    I John 5:6 This is the One who CAME by (Grk 'di' primary preposition denoting the channel of an act of the coming)water & blood, Jesus Christ—not in (Grk 'en' primary preposition denoting position & instrumentality) water ALONE, but in water & blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies to this, because the Spirit is the truth.

    When Jesus was born of a woman & came into this world, the channel of this act was done in both water & blood, an accurate description of physical birth.

    Born of a woman is an often repeated, common phrase throughout the Bible, referring to physical human beings. Just as John the Baptist was born of a woman, so was Jesus. Jesus as John was conceived & in the womb of his mother, so was Jesus. Again Scripture leaves us no option to say that Jesus wasn't fully human, of flesh & bones. It is repeated over & over & makes so many comparisons you can't escape it, unless you have believed a lie & have been deceived.

    Rom 9:3-5 For I could wish that I myself were cursed & cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, MY OWN FLESH & BLOOD, the PEOPLE OF ISRAEL. Theirs is the ADOPTION AS SONS; theirs the divine glory & the covenants; theirs the GIVING OF THE LAW, the temple worship & the promises. Theirs are the PATRIARCHS & FROM THEM--proceeds the HUMAN DESCENT OF THE MESSIAH, who IS God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.

    Gal 4:4 focuses even more closely. The same word is used twice in a row: BORN of and BORN UNDER. In other words, Jesus was a JEWISH MALE HUMAN BEING. Jesus came to the Jews first, then the Gentiles. Salvation comes from the Jews, the gospel is the power of God for salvation to the Jews FIRST, then to the Gentiles. Jesus came born under the Law to redeem those who were born UNDER THE SAME LAW so they might receive the adoption as sons!

    H.A.W. Meyer's Commentary says it so well:

    This very fact, that Christ, although the Son of God, whom God had sent forth from Himself from heaven, entered into this life as a man through birth from a woman (Rom 5:15; I Cor 15:21; Acts 17:31) &—just as an ordinary man enters into TEMPORAL LIFE AS ONE BORN OF A WOMAN—Paul wishes to bring into prominence as the mode of carrying out the divine counsel. (Rom 8:3; Phil 2:7; Rom 1:3). The supernatural generation which preceded the natural birth was not here in question.

    γενόμενον ὑπὸ νόμον] Luther: “made under the law.” Paul desires to represent the birth of the Son of God not merely as an ordinary human birth, but also as an ordinary Jewish birth (Heb 2:14-17) & he therefore says: “born of a woman, born under the law,” so that He was subjected to circumcision & to all other ordinances of the law, like any other Jewish child. But God caused His Son to be born as an ordinary man & as an ordinary Israelite, because otherwise He could not have undergone death—either at all, or as One cursed by the law (Gal 3:13), which did not apply to those who were not Jews (Rom 1:12)—& could not have rendered the curse of the law of none effect as regards those who were its subjects. (Rom 8:3; Heb 3:14) He redeemed & adopted them!


    The truth is, many have become DULL OF HEARING THE WORD OF GOD, HIS VERY BREATHED OUT WORDS! And they have wandered from the truth to their own destruction--how can they escape punishment for ignoring SO GREAT A SALVATION!

    'Sanctify them in the truth, Your Word is truth.'

    'IF--you continue to remain in My words, THEN you will know the TRUTH & then the truth will set you FREE.'

    There is such joy & peace & freedom in knowing & proclaiming the truth! May we as followers of Christ be sanctified-set apart-from the world in God's truth.

    The trouble is, many Christians do not know the Scriptures! They don't take into account the WHOLE counsel of God on the subject of conception & birth of human beings, as well as other subjects. There are hundreds of verses throughout the Bible & I am seeking to open eyes to ALL that God says about this subject.

    Then we don't need to speculate or presumptuously say something in pride & boastfulness, with no Biblical truth being proclaimed to contrast the lies. That is why heresy pops up, so that it can be exposed as heresy by the truth of the Scriptures!

    So the process of conception, impartation of spirit & soul & growth of flesh & bones in the womb until birth is Biblical! These are only some of the verses to show this.

    That people can respond in the womb is Biblical also!

    Luke 1:31-44 Behold, you will CONCEIVE & GIVE BIRTH TO A SON--{spirits are not born or given in birth, physical babies are}--& you are to give Him the name Jesus. He will be great & will be called THE Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of HIS FATHER DAVID & He will REIGN OVER the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will NEVER end!” "How can this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a VIRGIN?” The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you AND the POWER of the Most High will overshadow you. So the Holy One to be BORN will be called THE SON OF GOD.
    Look, even Elizabeth your relative has CONCEIVED A SON in her old age & she who was called barren is in her 6th month.

    FOR NOTHING WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE WITH GOD.” When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, THE BABY LEAPED IN HER WOMB & Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. In a loud voice she exclaimed, “Blessed are you among women & blessed is the FRUIT of your womb! And why am I so honored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For as soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped FOR JOY. Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord’s word to her will be fulfilled.”

    Just as Elizabeth your cousin has conceived a son--a physical son--so in the same way you are going to conceive a son--a physical son. The comparison is plain.

    And an amazing thing is revealed in Scripture that is missed if you don't know the Greek voice & parsing of the conception of Elizabeth & the conception of Mary.

    Elizabeth's conception is the Perfect Indicative ACTIVE - 3rd Person Singular. Can you imagine the active participation, after God's promise of her having a son when she was beyond childbearing--when she had intercourse with Zechariah! That wasn't passive.

    But with Mary the conception is Aorist Infinitive PASSIVE--God the Father via the power of the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary at the time of ovulation & brought about conception. Mary was passive in this. God was doing the action. God had to intervene as there was no physical man with physical seed to actively cause the conception. But it was indeed a conception & Jesus was born as a normal human baby.

    How did God do it specifically? You will need to have a talk with God on that one. But it definitely was male DNA involved in a miraculous fashion in penetrating Mary's ovum to bring about conception because Mary could not have produced a male child via the DNA in her ovum.

    Deut 29:29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us & to our children forever, so that we may follow all the words of this law.

    Zechariah's now virile seed in Elizabeth's miracle ovum
    conceived inside of Elizabeth. God used the normal way of fertilization in a miraculous way. The same was true for Abraham & his wife Sarah. Both became fertile when beyond childbearing, God using His normal design in a miraculous way, Isaac being from the body of Abraham & Sarah!

    Remember again God's command to both Adam & Eve: "be FRUITFUL--and multiply!" It took both to procreate a human being, the fruit of their bodies joined together in fertilization to bring forth a human being.

    Psalm 127:3 Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward.

    Job 31:15 Did not He who MADE ME IN THE WOMB make him? And did not One FASHION us in the womb?

    Job 3:3 “Let the day perish on which I was born & the night that said, ‘A man is conceived.’

    Gen 4:1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife & she conceived & bore Cain, saying, “I have gotten a man WITH THE HELP OF THE LORD.”

    Rom 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children BY ONE MAN, our forefather Isaac...

    Isaiah 49:5 And now the Lord says, He who FORMED ME FROM THE WOMB to be His servant... (Messianic prophecy)

    Isaiah 49:1 Listen to me, O coastlands & give attention, you peoples from afar. The Lord called me from the womb, FROM THE BODY OF MY MOTHER he named My name. (prophecy of the Messiah, Christ, the physical descendant of King David)

    Rom 1:3 ...Regarding His Son, who was a DESCENDANT of David ACCORDING TO THE FLESH!

    The fruit in Sarah's womb was from both she & Abraham, from their bodies. The same for Elizabeth & Zechariah. And the same was true for Mary, her body & the miracle of the power of God the Father & the Holy Spirit in bringing fertilization & conception of a normal baby boy of flesh & blood from the body of Mary, who was also THE HOLY ONE, THE SON OF GOD. Miraculous--true--but also the process of conception & normal growth in the womb & physical birth of a human being is what God used.

    Remember another important point in Genesis 5:1-3: This is the written account (book) of the descendants of Adam. When God created human beings, he made them in His image ('Imago Dei'). Male & female He created them, & He blessed them. And in the day they were created, He called them man (adam-mankind).” When Adam was 130 years old, he had a son in HIS OWN LIKENESS, after HIS OWN IMAGE & he named him Seth.

    Phil 2:6,7 Who existing in the form of God...emptied Himself (made Himself of no reputation), taking the form of a servant, being MADE IN HUMAN LIKENESS.

    Just like Seth was a physical human being made in Adam's likeness as a physical human being, so Jesus as a physical descendant of Adam & David, was also made in human likeness, physically, with flesh & bones. The Scriptures do not give anyone the liberty or presumption to say that Jesus made in human likeness was just appearing as a man but not actually being one. Scripture when viewed holistically, doesn't leave that option!

    After the fall, created in God's image & likeness was corrupted, sin & death, both spiritual & physical, entered the world (Rom 5) & the whole universe was corrupted (Rom 8:1-5), because Adam's disobedience led to death & corruption. Another reason the Messiah came into the world & was physically born, 'God with us', was to bring about a new creation (Gal 5:17), being conformed to Christ's image which is the image of God. He imparts through the Holy Spirit a new image created after the likeness of God in true righteousness & holiness! (Eph 4:24; Col 3:10; Gal 6:15). He will reconcile all things to Himself & create a new heavens & earth in which righteousness dwells! Hallel YAH!
     
  9. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    Then iv made error in marys geneology.

    But not in respect to jesus having any of the blood of adam in him via mary.

    Why a virgin birth .... 1.This sign shall be
    Thats why.-scripture.
    2. The blood of baby and mother never mingle in the womb.thus he is born without sin -scripture.
    3. Because a virgin.no blood cell or dna or anything from Joseph.
    4. By being birthed forth from the womb all lawful requirement of liniage is already satisfied .

    There has never been a need for anything of the physical and sin tainted flesh and blood of mary as it would contaminate the sinless saviour.
    There has never been any need for a mother for JESUS to be fully man .
    We all know Adam was fully man without a mother.

    this is simply what the scripture states.
    You will find that an unbias approach reveals that every doctrine which attempts to include marys flesh in any way other then a womb that carried him ... Is ALL from a source OUTSIDE scripture.
    All assuming with bias to elevate the created wo-man .
     
  10. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic

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    Not only are you right, but the whole "lack of human DNA" thing actually fits some of the ancient Gnostic heresies known as "Doceticism".

    Docetism | religion
     
  11. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic

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    Yes and I read your other post on this as well and agree. My Coptic priest from my previous home town was a doctor of genetics that worked on the Human Genome project prior to going into ministry. Any way we had a talk about cloning and the Church's position on it, but the immaculate conception did come up and what was presented in the talk was basically what you mentioned in this thread.
     
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  12. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    WOW! Fascinating!
     
  13. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic

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    On this issue Monk Brendan he could right.

    But even if you put away Augustinian Original sin, and use Ancestral Sin of the Eastern Christians you still have Kenosis and Christ being of Adam's line (which is cursed by death in Genesis). Christ was not given a glorified body till after the resurrection etc.

    But this is one of those areas where speculative theology can be dangerous (easy to preach heresies)!
     
  14. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    You seem to have missed what I'd written. The Holy Ghost used Mary's DNA to make a XY genome. That was a miraculous event despite that Mary could only produce XX genome.

    And you are incorrect. An egg does not discharge it's secondary polar body until after it is fertilized. The fertilization process is what brings it to maturity to be able to do that. Prior to this, there are two sets of 23 chromosome DNA in the egg. So biologically speaking; yes God used those 46 chromosomes present to make a human male.

    Second polar body extrusion is highly predictive for oocyte fertilization as soon as 3 hr after intracytoplasmic sperm injection (ICSI). - PubMed - NCBI
     
  15. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic

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    Agreed I also think some Protestant would do well to have some empathy for the other side as far as realizing that it is possible to read the Bible and have different conclusions based on study of the text. For instance, some people were discussing "the Ever Virginity of Mary" a few posts previously, Catholics and Orthodox have more reasons for believing things like this "Biblically speaking" than what many people give them credit for. I'm talking about issues relating to the limited nature of Hebrew and Aramaic vocabulary where words like brother had to be used since they didn't have a word for cousin in the language and stuff like that. You had people like saint Jerome who believed in stuff like that who was proficient in not only Biblical languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek but also studied the Bible comparing the different ancient manuscripts of the Bible in their original languages with each other etc.

    Anyway people like Jerome were not someone who had "just fallen off the turnip truck", but were very well educated on these issues as far as the nature of the text and other issues that relate to it. It is for that reason, why I think Luther and Calvin actually sided with the Church fathers on this issue and not with Helividius (the first person on record who bring up this objection in Nicean times).

    But I don't really want to get into a debate on this issue since I've already done so a number of times, but figured I would at least chime in briefly.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  16. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic

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    Yes technically speaking Augustine invented it. The previous notion of the Church Fathers is Ancestral Sin.

    Ancestral sin - Wikipedia
     
  17. Selene03

    Selene03 Active Member

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    According to what is said in Wikipedia, the doctrine of Original Sin came from Ireaneus in the 2nd century. According to Wikipedia:

    The doctrine of ancestral fault is similarly presented as a tradition of immemorial antiquity in ancient Greek religion by Celsus in his True Doctrine, a polemic against Christianity. Celsus is quoted as attributing to "a priest of Apollo or of Zeus" the saying that "the mills of the gods grind slowly, even to children's children, and to those who are born after them".[3] The idea of divine justice taking the form of collective punishment is also ubiquitous in the Hebrew Bible, e.g. the Ten Plagues of Egypt, the destruction of Shechem, etc. and most notably the recurring punishments inflicted on the Israelites for lapsing from Yahwism.[4]

    The formalized Christian doctrine of original sin is a direct extension of the concept of ancestral sin (imagined as inflicted on a number of succeeding generations), arguing that the sin of Adam and Eve is inflicted on all their descendents indefinitely, i.e. on the entire human race. It was first developed in the 2nd century by Irenaeus, the Bishop of Lyons, in his struggle against Gnosticism.[5] Irenaeus contrasted their doctrine with the view that the Fall was a step in the wrong direction by Adam, with whom, Irenaeus believed, his descendants had some solidarity or identity.[6]


    That was also the same time the Immaculate Conception was formed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  18. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic

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    There are some antecedents in the Latin Fathers. The article uses the term "alluded to" of Ireaneus. Which means yes there are some connotations of it, but Augustine's concupiscence etc. is a bit stronger than that, as the article also mentions, "...Augustine was the first to add the concept of inherited guilt (reatus) from Adam whereby an infant was eternally damned at birth".


    Anyway this ends up being a big dividing point between east and west as far as Soteriology and a few other topics are concerned!
     
  19. Sanoy

    Sanoy Well-Known Member

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    She could be part Levite too, there are some "Levi"s in her genealogy.

    4. The only way the Princehood would be satisfied is through ignorance of Surrogacy. Climbing out a womb doesn't make one a Prince, it is the parents that make one a Prince. I'd ask you to give me 1 reference that would suggest a Prince can come from surrogacy but surrogacy wasn't a think, ever, back then. So we know it doesn't exist and wasn't even in the minds of the author of the gospels.

    The doctrine that Marry was a surrogate is OUTSIDE scripture. That Marry is His actual Mother is actually expected from Scripture because the Messiah was supposed to be a Branch of Jesse.

    Original Sin is nuanced. Most people believe that death is the hereditary part of Adams condemnation, not hereditary Moral guilt. The main passage is Romans 5:12-21. Paul says sin entered the world, and death passes through the generations, not intrinsic guilt. The closest we come to hereditary moral guilt is verse 19, but the word "made" in "made sinners" is rendered or constituted. It is a legal declaration, not a result of moral action which makes sense considering that it is paired with "made righteous".
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
  20. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Active Member

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    Thanks for getting back to me, The Righterzpen! Here are my responses. You did surprise me when you stated as if it was fact and/or scriptural: "The Holy Ghost used MARY'S DNA TO MAKE AN XY GENOME."

    My question to you is: Did the Holy Spirit tell YOU this is HOW HE DID IT? I need to know if you have a direct line to Him on the secret workings & activity of God in the womb.

    Just to throw a monkey wrench in that idea, did God in making Adam need help in figuring out how to make male DNA? I don't think so. Did God most likely do the same for Jesus like He did for Adam? This seems more likely & His chosen normal process of conception & fertilization would go like all others. Mary's DNA in the ovum stayed the same with God's male DNA added, like Adams. In Luke 1:31,35 it states conception occurred in Mary's womb not her fallopian tubes.

    When Jesus was conceived, He was called that 'holy One.' So there is a probability that perhaps God did do it this way, since the male DNA that produced a male child, Jesus, was indeed 'holy' when united with Mary's egg in the process of conceiving. This makes better Scriptural sense to me based on the number of Scriptures--but again--I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY HOW HE DID IT. Neither do you. God never said. That will be a good one to ask Him when we get to Paradise in the Lord's Presence.

    Secondly, I am not incorrect as to what I said. Everything I said was factual with up to date information. It had to do with NATURAL conception, the way God designed it to normally happen.

    You however were NOT straightforward on your info that you gave. It was an article done back in 1995. Your example was ARTIFICIAL NOT NATURAL. It was in vitro fertilization & that was done outside the body. As a result it was not natural at all. Rather than the normal process of fertilization occuring within the body, in the fallopian tubes, this was done outside the body then the eggs that were actually fertilized were implanted back into the uterus of 21 test patients with fertility problems.

    Your information was man manipulating oocytes outside the body & then injecting one sperm cell (not a variety of them from which God chooses one) into it BEFORE the normal cycle. This is artificial, man manipulated. It was done to 205 oocytes from 21 patients. The process of capacitation does not occur either as it would in a normal cyle of conception. This is eliminated when done artificially.

    This would not have happened to Mary. There was no in vitro fertilization in Mary's time so this articifial situation would NOT have occurred. And Mary by having other children did not have fertility problems. It is not biblical but man generated.

    Second, the article never said there were 46 chromosomes in the secondary oocyte. If you understand the process of fertilization, you would know that once a sperm penetrates an oocyte/egg it takes close to 24 hours to finish fertilizing the egg. So even through artificial means, the secondary polar body has more than enough time, even in the longest ones emerging at 3 hours to emerge BEFORE THE FERTILIZATION of the egg is completed. Thus, the oocyte would have only 23 chromosomes not 46 because the secondary polar body has 23 chromosomes & separates from the oocyte before the fertilization process has been completed.

    Why do i say that with absolute certainty? Because the article you quote says that the secondary polar bodies emerged in the study from 1 to the most 3 hours after sperm INJECTION. The actual oocytes were not fertilized until EIGHTEEN HOURS after injection. This is written right in the article. You should read it more carefully next time.

    So whether done artificially or naturally, what I said was truthful & factual. You appeared to me not be straightforward about the article & your judgment that I was incorrect was indeed proved to be unfounded.

    Several other factors need to be taken into account here as well. Here is the possible judgment on the people who do in vitro by God for their unethical practice. You will also notice in this article that they took 205 SECONDARY oocytes (not primary so division in meiosis I had already occurred in a laboratory environment) from 21 women in their study. A woman normally releases one ripe secondary ootid (of 23 chromosomes) from their egg follicle. This is called ovulation. Sometimes two can be released. The egg normally lives for up to 24 hours before disintegrating.

    For them to get 205 secondary oocytes, they would have had to artifically stimulate each woman's follicles to have more eggs released, or about 10 eggs per woman. 135 of them were injected with 1 sperm cell and 70 of them were used to assess a possible negative effect of repeated exposure to light microscopy. Of the 135, 62% were viable zygotes and out of those implanted back in the uterus, only 22% were sucessful.

    This begs the question: if each one of those 62% viable zygotes were human beings which only needed to be implanted in the womb to grow up to be babies, yet only 22% of those actually were successful implants, what does that say about all those human beings that were lost? This is a serious ethical situation, let alone those 70 secondary oocytes that were discarded due to continued light microscopy, rendering them useless. May God have mercy on their souls.

    Here is another aspect concerning the word conceive in the Greek in Vines Expository Dictionary:

    2: συλλαμβάνω (Strong's #4815 — Verb — sullambano — sool-lam-ban'-o ). Literally, "to take together" (sun, "with," lambano, "to take or receive"), is used (a) of a woman, to "conceive," Luke 1:24,31,36 in the active voice ; in the Passive Voice, Luke 2:21...

    The act of conception literally means the taking & receiving together. God is all wise & here we see the picture of the egg & the sperm--taking & receiving together--to bring about the zygote, the initial beginning of a unique human being, as God places the spirit & soul within, with the breath for physical life.

    Eccl 11:5 As you do not know the way the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the activity (work) of God who makes everything. (see also Psalm 139:13-16)

    Several other things I thought I would mention. Someone seems to have the idea that if Jesus was conceived of Mary's DNA that Jesus would have been tainted somehow. Here is a good article about that very thing explaining the difference.

    2 Cor 5:21 For our sake He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

    I Pet 2:24 He himself bore our sins IN HIS BODY on the tree, that we might die to sin & live to righteousness. By His wounds you have been healed.

    Romans chapter 8 commentary

    I would add that Jesus taught that the evil thoughts, etc. came out of the heart of our corrupted nature when we were procreated in the image & likeness of Adam. (Mark 7:14-23) Our heart is deceitful. So God searches it & reveals it to us. (Jer 17:9,10) We are not held accountable for Adam's sin. We are held accountable for our own sin. (James 1:13-16) But when Adam sinned, a curse was pronounced & through one man came sin & death to all men. (see Paul's struggle in Romans 7)

    Jer 17:9 The heart is DECEITFUL above all else & desperately wicked, who can know it?

    2 Cor 11:3 I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was DECIEVED by the serpent's cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple & pure devotion to Christ.

    Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, as long as it is called today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's DECEITFULNESS.

    Eph 4:22 You were taught with reference to your FORMER way of life to lay aside THE OLD MAN who is being CORRUPTED in accordance with DECEITFUL DESIRES...

    Rom 6:6 We know that OUR OLD MAN was crucified with Him so that the BODY OF SIN might be rendered POWERLESS, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.

    Gen 5:1,2 IN THE DAY that God created man, He made him in His own likeness. When Adam was 130 years old, he had a son IN HIS OWN LIKENESS, after his own image.…

    Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you PUT TO DEATH the deeds of the body, you will live.

    Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh & the mind & were BY NATURE the CHILDREN OF WRATH, even as the rest of mankind.

    Isaiah 64:6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a POLLUTED GARMENT. We all fade like a leaf & our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

    Zech 3:4 And the angel said to those who were standing before him, “Remove the filthy garments from him.” And to him he said, “Behold, I have taken your iniquity away from you, and I will clothe you with pure vestments.”

    Colossians 3:5-10 Put to death, then, your members that are upon the earth -- fornication (whoredom), uncleanness, passion, evil desire & the covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these, the WRATH of God is coming on the CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE. When you lived among them, you also used to walk in these ways. Do not lie to one another, having put off THE OLD MAN with his practices & having put on the new {man}, which is renewed in regard to knowledge, after the IMAGE OF HIM WHO DID CREATE HIM.

    Rom 6:13 Do not present the members (parts) of YOUR BODY TO SIN as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who HAVE BEEN BROUGHT FROM DEATH TO LIFE & present the members of your body TO HIM as instruments of righteousness.

    I John 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

    Phil 3:9 And be found IN HIM, not having a righteousness OF MY OWN that comes from the law, but that which comes THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST, the righteousness FROM GOD that depends on faith—

    Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness OF GOD has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law & the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

    Deut 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin OF YOUR HEART & be no more stiffnecked.

    Ezek 36:26 A NEW HEART also will I give you & a new spirit will I put within you & I will take away the STONY heart out of your flesh & I will give you a heart of flesh.

    Eph 4:23,24 ...Be renewed in the spirit of your minds & PUT ON THE NEW MAN, the one created according to God's likeness in righteousness & purity of the truth.

    2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature (creation); old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    Gal 6:15 For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything. What counts is a new creation.

    Gen 3:10,11,21 And he said, “I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself.”He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” And the Lord God made for Adam & for his wife garments of skins & clothed them.

    Rev 19:8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright & clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

    Job 23:19 I put on righteousness & it clothed me.
    Rom 13:14 CLOTHE YOURSELVES with the Lord Jesus Christ & make no PROVISION for the desires of the flesh.
    Psalm 132:9 May Your priests be clothed with righteousness & Your saints shout for joy.
    Isaiah 59:17 For He put on righteousness as a breastplate...
    Isaiah 52:1 Put on thy beautiful garments...

    Isaiah 61:1-11 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives & the opening of the prison to those who are bound; to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor & the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn; to grant to those who mourn in Zion— to give them a beautiful headdress instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, the GARMENT OF PRAISE instead of a faint spirit; that they may be called oaks of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he may be glorified.

    Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted, will be uprooted.

    Col 2:11 IN HIM you were also CIRCUMCISED in the putting off of your flesh (body), with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands.

    Gal 5:24 And they that ARE Christ's have CRUCIFIED THE FLESH with the affections & lusts.
     
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