DNA and Christ's Birth

cradleGO

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Apparently you have never read Judgement Day for the Shroud of Turin by Walter McCrone who was part of the team of scientists commissioned to investigate the shroud. I suggest that you do prior to asserting that there was no paint on the shroud, only blood.

However, if there was blood on the shroud, then it could be easily examined for its DNA content. However, not the slightest indication of any interest in determining the DNA of Jesus Christ has been exhibited by the RCC either from the shroud or from vials containing His blood recovered following eucharistic miracles. Why is that?
Keep in mind that the Shroud is an RCC possession due to a theft from the Sack of Constantinople. So, from 1204. Before that it was an ancient artifact of the Christians, then possessed by a Edessa king, and from the 10th century it was possessed by Constantinople, which displayed it each Friday. There is good evidence that St Paul is cryptically referring to it as it is moved to Antioch for safekeeping.

There are several investigators of the the Shroud on the Conference (Pasco studies) team, many of them protestants. Take note that the carbon dating testing did not follow the protocol established by the team before the investigation started.

If your source says that there is paint on the Shroud, then it is nonsense. I am being very casual in my response as I gave you a link which has full details - in manageable hunks; also, I find mindless attacks on the authenticity of the Shroud - paint on it - as being satanic.

Probably an unappreciated validation of the authenticity of the Shroud is that nothing about Christianity is easy or without need for effort if one is skeptical. Why that is so, I can only guess.

Much is known about the blood on the Shroud, but like I said, the male haplotype hasn't been given to my knowledge. I don't know why. The blood is real. It is type AB. (I didn't record the Rh factor). The mtDNA (female from the X chromosome) found in the image area of the Shroud is H2a2a1, a common Haplotype from the region. This is likely Mary's DNA type. (Males have Y and X chromosomes.)
 
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Valletta

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I am not aware of any DNA testing done as you described. Would you kindly show me the data? Thank you.
I have a degree in a science but that's not my field. What I can do is give you a link to an article to get you started. Father Spitzer is mentioned in the article and he has a broad knowledge of science even though from my experience I would say physics is his specialty. He would likely be able to point you to specific data. His email is public and you can find it with a simple search.

 
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cradleGO

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I am not aware of any DNA testing done as you described. Would you kindly show me the data? Thank you.
Look at the link I provided in a comment here. The DNA on the Shroud was extensively studied. (From memory), it supports handling by Indians (like the pollen, from the production of the flax), middle easterners (like pollen, from the making of the linen, and fashioning of the Shroud), some from near easterners (like the pollen, from its travels through Antioch and Edessa , and western DNA (like the pollen, from its travels through Constantinople, France and Italy). The blood is from one individual. The mtDNA (from the X chromosome) has been reported as stated in a prior comment here. Again, I have not seen the male haplotype reported.
 
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Clare73

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How do we "know" that Jesus had Mary's DNA? How can we be sure that Jesus was not implanted as a zygote into Mary's womb? If God could create a sperm cell, He could just as well have created a zygote.
Probably because according to God's own word, the Messiah would descend from David.
 
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RDKirk

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Probably because according to God's own word, the Messiah would descend from David.
Jesus descent is traced through both Mary and Joseph. That doesn't have anything to do with the DNA. More significantly, He is not descendant from Adam, but is a second Adam.
 
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Clare73

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Jesus descent is traced through both Mary and Joseph. That doesn't have anything to do with the DNA.
Jesus' natural descent from King David is traced through Mary who descended from Nathan, while his legal descent from David, legally entitling him to the throne of David, is traced through Joseph who descended from the kingly line of Solomon.
More significantly, He is not descendant from Adam, but is a second Adam.
Yes, in God's economy, legal descent is reckoned through the father.
Jesus did not descend from Adam as his father and, therefore, he could be a second Adam.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Keep in mind that the Shroud is an RCC possession due to a theft from the Sack of Constantinople. So, from 1204. Before that it was an ancient artifact of the Christians, then possessed by a Edessa king, and from the 10th century it was possessed by Constantinople, which displayed it each Friday. There is good evidence that St Paul is cryptically referring to it as it is moved to Antioch for safekeeping.

There are several investigators of the the Shroud on the Conference (Pasco studies) team, many of them protestants. Take note that the carbon dating testing did not follow the protocol established by the team before the investigation started.

If your source says that there is paint on the Shroud, then it is nonsense. I am being very casual in my response as I gave you a link which has full details - in manageable hunks; also, I find mindless attacks on the authenticity of the Shroud - paint on it - as being satanic.

Probably an unappreciated validation of the authenticity of the Shroud is that nothing about Christianity is easy or without need for effort if one is skeptical. Why that is so, I can only guess.

Much is known about the blood on the Shroud, but like I said, the male haplotype hasn't been given to my knowledge. I don't know why. The blood is real. It is type AB. (I didn't record the Rh factor). The mtDNA (female from the X chromosome) found in the image area of the Shroud is H2a2a1, a common Haplotype from the region. This is likely Mary's DNA type. (Males have Y and X chromosomes.)
I am not going to pursue this rabbit trail further with you because it is obvious that neither of us works from the same set of data. I still highly recommend Walter McCrone's book. He was a devout Catholic who had no religious bias to discredit the authenticity of the shroud.

My original point still stands relative to the OP. Rather than speculating on the possible paternal DNA of Jesus Christ an obvious means of would be to simply sequence the DNA from a verified sample of His DNA, which can be most easily obtained from any one of a multitude of authenticated samples held within the RCC.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Look at the link I provided in a comment here. The DNA on the Shroud was extensively studied. (From memory), it supports handling by Indians (like the pollen, from the production of the flax), middle easterners (like pollen, from the making of the linen, and fashioning of the Shroud), some from near easterners (like the pollen, from its travels through Antioch and Edessa , and western DNA (like the pollen, from its travels through Constantinople, France and Italy). The blood is from one individual. The mtDNA (from the X chromosome) has been reported as stated in a prior comment here. Again, I have not seen the male haplotype reported.
This is not particularly new to me. I am aware that various samples of pollen were examined with the results you mentioned. What I am simply suggesting in response to the OP is that, rather than speculating on the possible paternal DNA of Jesus Christ an obvious means of would be to simply sequence the DNA from a verified sample of His DNA, which can be most easily obtained from any one of a multitude of authenticated samples held within the RCC.

Are you aware of any samples of the blood of Jesus Christ which have been subjected to DNA sequencing? Also, to provide a broader statistical base it would be ideal to sequence all possible surviving samples. As you know, this is basic science 101.
 
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Valletta

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I am not going to pursue this rabbit trail further with you because it is obvious that neither of us works from the same set of data. I still highly recommend Walter McCrone's book. He was a devout Catholic who had no religious bias to discredit the authenticity of the shroud.

My original point still stands relative to the OP. Rather than speculating on the possible paternal DNA of Jesus Christ an obvious means of would be to simply sequence the DNA from a verified sample of His DNA, which can be most easily obtained from any one of a multitude of authenticated samples held within the RCC.
McCrone's work was highly criticized by other scientists. Did you forget to mention that? I've already corrected you on your false claim when you said:

"not the slightest indication of any interest in determining the DNA of Jesus Christ has been exhibited by the RCC either from the shroud or from vials containing His blood recovered following eucharistic miracles."

Yet you seem determined to spin a tale that Catholics have not checked these things out--as if they fear to do so. As I also told you, strangely sequences are missing from the DNA. How many Catholic masses have you attended this century?
 
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bbbbbbb

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McCrone's work was highly criticized by other scientists. Did you forget to mention that? I've already corrected you on your false claim when you said:

"not the slightest indication of any interest in determining the DNA of Jesus Christ has been exhibited by the RCC either from the shroud or from vials containing His blood recovered following eucharistic miracles."

Yet you seem determined to spin a tale that Catholics have not checked these things out--as if they fear to do so. As I also told you, strangely sequences are missing from the DNA. How many Catholic masses have you attended this century?
As you well know, the hallmark of scientific work is peer review. I am unaware of any scientific work which does not receive criticism, sometimes extremely negative, when subjected to peer review. Charles Darwin springs to my mind as a classic example.

In any event, I do not intend to be fixated on the shroud in Turin only. As we both know, the RCC claims to retain a fairly extensive data set of authenticated samples of the blood of Jesus Christ. As I suggested previously, to put down idle speculation as we have witnessed on this thread regarding the paternal DNA of Jesus Christ, it is more than feasible to conduct DNA sequencing from any or all of the authenticated samples of the actual physical blood of Jesus Christ. Do you know why this has not been done at this time?
 
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Valletta

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As you well know, the hallmark of scientific work is peer review. I am unaware of any scientific work which does not receive criticism, sometimes extremely negative, when subjected to peer review. Charles Darwin springs to my mind as a classic example.

In any event, I do not intend to be fixated on the shroud in Turin only. As we both know, the RCC claims to retain a fairly extensive data set of authenticated samples of the blood of Jesus Christ. As I suggested previously, to put down idle speculation as we have witnessed on this thread regarding the paternal DNA of Jesus Christ, it is more than feasible to conduct DNA sequencing from any or all of the authenticated samples of the actual physical blood of Jesus Christ. Do you know why this has not been done at this time?
The idle speculation on this subject and the false claim has been yours. Why would you say that an attempt to conduct DNA sequencing has never been done after I've posted that "strangely sequences are missing from the DNA." How many times have you been to a Catholic mass this century?
 
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bbbbbbb

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The idle speculation on this subject and the false claim has been yours. Why would you say that an attempt to conduct DNA sequencing has never been done after I've posted that "strangely sequences are missing from the DNA." How many times have you been to a Catholic mass this century?
Actually I have attended Catholic mass a few times this century with friends. I have no idea how mass is conducted in your parish, although the format is identical, as we all know. The only significant variation IMO that has happened over the past few decades during are changes brought about by the shortage of celibate male priests which has become exceptionally acute. Thus, there are no longer altar "boys" but girls and women and men, as well. Women are now permitted to take a much more active part in the mass, except for key aspects such as the eucharist. The diaconate has become much more active than heretofore. In years past the average rectory would house at least two priests and now many rectories are empty and priests are being stretched thin to accommodate the needs of multiple churches or enlarged parishes. Parishes have been merged and perfectly excellent historic church buildings have been abandoned and demolished.

IMO the chief problem in American Catholicism is not the much-publicized sexual antics of rogue priests (which had been going on for centuries, although well hidden for the most part) but the dire situation regarding recruitment for religious vocational ministries - not only priests, but nuns and cloistered orders. In my home city there are no longer any parochial elementary schools associated with parish churches. All have been merged into a single school which has the enrollment of only the largest parochial elementary school of my childhood.

On the positive, there has been a burst of construction at the two motherhouses of nuns as the various nuns from these orders have been retiring and spending their final years in their motherhouses. I do not exaggerate in saying that they are each now ten times bigger, in square footage, than when I was a child. Every day in the local newspaper there are the obituaries of many of these faithful servants of the church.

The downside, of course, is that they are not being replaced to any meaningful extent. When I was young it was an unusual day when one did not see a priest and/or nun on the streets. In fact, I remember one Saturday evening when we were eating at a local supper club and there was a priest with a nun at the bar. That was not considered to be at all problematic. Nowadays one very rarely encounters a nun in public. They have virtually disappeared from the classrooms and the hospitals.

Speaking of which, in my youth the Catholic hospital was, by far and away, the major health care provider with the public hospital in my city being a much smaller entity. About thirty years ago the Catholic hospital stalled out and stopped growing, at least in terms of physical plant. In the meantime the public hospital has been growing by leaps and bounds and now is a larger entity, both in terms of space and in employment, than the Catholic hospital.

I say these things not as a broad picture of the state of the Catholic Church everywhere, but simply my own personal anecdotal observations.

However, that begs the question of the OP entirely. What do you think is the best method, as a scientist, for determining paternal DNA?
 
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cradleGO

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This is not particularly new to me. I am aware that various samples of pollen were examined with the results you mentioned. What I am simply suggesting in response to the OP is that, rather than speculating on the possible paternal DNA of Jesus Christ an obvious means of would be to simply sequence the DNA from a verified sample of His DNA, which can be most easily obtained from any one of a multitude of authenticated samples held within the RCC.

Are you aware of any samples of the blood of Jesus Christ which have been subjected to DNA sequencing? Also, to provide a broader statistical base it would be ideal to sequence all possible surviving samples. As you know, this is basic science 101.
As I said, I am unaware if the Y-DNA haplotype has been identified or if it is was published. The mitochondrial DNA (His mother's) has been identified and published as I said above. Now, the mt-DNA is far more readily obtainable as it is in every cell. The y-DNA must be obtained from a Y chromosome.

I do not know about "authenticated samples held within the RCC", referring to Christ's blood. Under Jewish ritual rules, blood from the dead is sopped up and buried with the other remains. Any claims that the RCC or any other entity claims to be from his Crucifixion or burial is not plausible.
As to a Eucharistic origin, the Orthodox view the Eucharist as a mystery and what our eyes perceive as bread and wine are in a divine way the Body and Blood of Christ. Why? Because Christ told us. No Orthodox would look to the Eucharist as the source of human DNA. I just want to get that out here, but it is a rabbit hole from my point of view.
 
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JSRG

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As I said, I am unaware if the Y-DNA haplotype has been identified or if it is was published. The mitochondrial DNA (His mother's) has been identified and published as I said above. Now, the mt-DNA is far more readily obtainable as it is in every cell. The y-DNA must be obtained from a Y chromosome.

I do not know about "authenticated samples held within the RCC", referring to Christ's blood. Under Jewish ritual rules, blood from the dead is sopped up and buried with the other remains. Any claims that the RCC or any other entity claims to be from his Crucifixion or burial is not plausible.
As to a Eucharistic origin, the Orthodox view the Eucharist as a mystery and what our eyes perceive as bread and wine are in a divine way the Body and Blood of Christ. Why? Because Christ told us. No Orthodox would look to the Eucharist as the source of human DNA. I just want to get that out here, but it is a rabbit hole from my point of view.
What bbbbbbb is referring to is not claims of blood from the Crucifixion or burial, but Eucharistic miracles. There have been a few cases where the bread of the Eucharist (not sure if this has ever happened to the wine) has been alleged to actually bleed or physically turn to flesh. A few are listed in the article that Valletta posted:

Or for another article on the subject:

This is what was being discussed. bbbbbbb was criticizing them for not performing DNA tests, but it seems (based on those articles) that DNA tests were done on some, but the DNA can't be fully deciphered. As the second article says:

The five Eucharistic miracles Serafini closely examined present four common features. He says he has found “five times out of five: the presence of the heart, of myocardial tissue, and suffering myocardial tissue. Then we have blood, of course. And then we have a blood type. It is the AB blood type, the blood type that is also found in authoritative Passion clothes such as the Shroud of Turin, of course. Also, we find DNA. Tests confirm the presence of DNA, but this DNA behaves in a very strange way because it is an elusive DNA.”

Unlike regular human DNA, the DNA found in Eucharistic miracles is not legible in its entirety. Some sequences are inexplicably missing, making the miraculous DNA impossible to trace or reproduce.


Anyway, that's what the whole discussion was about.
 
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The Liturgist

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Given the Statement of Purpose I think this fits. Jesus is fully human and fully God to the Orthodox (me). The Orthodox even say He is the God-man. We know that Jesus got His maternal DNA from His Mother. That leaves the origin of His paternal DNA. Remember - He is fully man.

We know that the Gospels talk about Him having brothers and sisters. This is usually explained as a 1st century term of art which can mean cousin or similar relation. I think there is a citation of Him being similar looking to the Apostle James the Less, his "brother", the first bishop of Jerusalem. And similar references.

We know that given our technology today that humanity leaves its DNA everywhere. And stem cells - creative factors - can be created from various other cells. That is with OUR technology. Today. What if Gabriel, acting from God, found and used Joseph's DNA when He made the invitation/announcement to the Virgin Mary? What if that were the source of Jesus' paternal DNA?

We know that Jesus received His linkage with the House of David through both Joseph's line as well as Mary's line. Mary's was the Royal line, but Joseph was also from the House of David. And tracing Jesus' lineage through Mary was proper according to Jewish Law. If Joseph's DNA was used, then Jesus was fully doubled linked to David. And Jesus truly had brothers and sisters - meaning stepbrothers and stepsisters (edited).

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Well it seems to me this is a theologoumemnon you can legitimately have according to the freedom Orthodox Christians enjoy to have theological opinions that do not conflict with the faith, but it is not to my knowledge part of the official doctrine, at least in a clearly identifiable way. Rather, aside from having the DNA of the Theotokos, who if I recall was also descended from King David, we do not know what the DNA of our Lord was.

That said, @prodromos is more likely to know definitively what if there is an official teaching of the Eastern Orthodox church is on this issue. Likewise @dzheremi might know if there is a formal position among the Coptic Orthodox and potentially other Oriental Orthodox churches on this issue (generally, the Coptic, Syriac and Ethiopian churches agree on doctrine, but occasionally the Armenians seem to have slight…variances; I was recently surprised to learn that they do not venerate St. Severus, who I myself venerate).
 
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Given the Statement of Purpose I think this fits. Jesus is fully human and fully God to the Orthodox (me). The Orthodox even say He is the God-man. We know that Jesus got His maternal DNA from His Mother. That leaves the origin of His paternal DNA. Remember - He is fully man.

We know that the Gospels talk about Him having brothers and sisters. This is usually explained as a 1st century term of art which can mean cousin or similar relation. I think there is a citation of Him being similar looking to the Apostle James the Less, his "brother", the first bishop of Jerusalem. And similar references.

We know that given our technology today that humanity leaves its DNA everywhere. And stem cells - creative factors - can be created from various other cells. That is with OUR technology. Today. What if Gabriel, acting from God, found and used Joseph's DNA when He made the invitation/announcement to the Virgin Mary? What if that were the source of Jesus' paternal DNA?

We know that Jesus received His linkage with the House of David through both Joseph's line as well as Mary's line. Mary's was the Royal line, but Joseph was also from the House of David. And tracing Jesus' lineage through Mary was proper according to Jewish Law. If Joseph's DNA was used, then Jesus was fully doubled linked to David. And Jesus truly had brothers and sisters - meaning stepbrothers and stepsisters (edited).

Reaction?

You are correct that Jesus is fully human and fully divine. However, it's not stated in the New Testament that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) and unnamed sisters from Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were the sons and daughters of Joseph and Mary, but rather only Jesus is called the son of Joseph and Mary (Matt. 13:55, Mk. 6:3).

In the opening post here, I've provided scriptural verses from the New Testament, in addition to more explicit evidence, that collectively show Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the sons of Jesus's uncle, Alphaeus (Joseph's brother), and his wife Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus) who was Mary of Joseph's sister-in-law (Jn. 19:25), and were thus His cousins.
 
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cradleGO

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Well it seems to me this is a theologoumemnon you can legitimately have according to the freedom Orthodox Christians enjoy to have theological opinions that do not conflict with the faith, but it is not to my knowledge part of the official doctrine, at least in a clearly identifiable way. Rather, aside from having the DNA of the Theotokos, who if I recall was also descended from King David, we do not know what the DNA of our Lord was.

That said, @prodromos is more likely to know definitively what if there is an official teaching of the Eastern Orthodox church is on this issue. Likewise @dzheremi might know if there is a formal position among the Coptic Orthodox and potentially other Oriental Orthodox churches on this issue (generally, the Coptic, Syriac and Ethiopian churches agree on doctrine, but occasionally the Armenians seem to have slight…variances; I was recently surprised to learn that they do not venerate St. Severus, who I myself venerate).
You missed the intent of my OP. I am certain that any Christian should say that Jesus' y-DNA is from the Holy Spirit if they think of it in terms that Jesus is fully man as well as fully God. I am suggesting given what we humans know about human DNA and given what is in our capabilities to do now, we can speculate where that y-DNA came from. As I said, I am not advocating any doctrinal change.
Another way to look at the Incarnation is that what occurred physically to impregnate Mary is within our understanding of human reproduction, even if we cannot see how it was done without a supernatural process.
That is, we can understand the what, but not the how.
 
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prodromos

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God took flesh from Adam and formed Eve. There was only paternal DNA available yet God had no problem creating a woman from a man's flesh. Thus there is really no issue with God taking only maternal DNA and forming a man's flesh. Both Mary and Joseph were descendants of David, so Jesus was already biologically of David's line.
 
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RDKirk

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God took flesh from Adam and formed Eve. There was only paternal DNA available yet God had no problem creating a woman from a man's flesh. Thus there is really no issue with God taking only maternal DNA and forming a man's flesh. Both Mary and Joseph were descendants of David, so Jesus was already biologically of David's line.
Being "biologically" of David's line would mean carrying the sin of Adam. The frailties wrought by the Fall are embedded in the DNA of both male and female. The only way Jesus could be clear of the physical consequences of the Fall was to possess no DNA descended from Adam.

God could easily fully create and place a zygote into Mary. "Biological" descendancy from David was not necessary to fulfill either law or prophesy, only the recognition of the family line. Jesus was recognized as also being of Joseph's family lineage, remember.
 
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prodromos

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Being "biologically" of David's line would mean carrying the sin of Adam
No. The flesh Christ took on in Mary's womb was healed at the instant of His conception. If it wasn't "our" flesh that He assumed then it wasn't "our" flesh that He took into death and raised to new life.
 
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