Jesus has broken the Sabbath

SabbathBlessings · Aug 19, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
It has nothing to do with the devil. It has to do with us. We have a sin nature and it will not be gone until we are glorified.

Sin has nothing to do with the devil? Are we reading the same bible?

1 John 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

Sin again is the transgression of God’s law 1 John 3:4 which Paul points right to the Ten. Romans 7:7

Who do you think wants us to believe we can’t keep God’s law?

It’s certainly not God.

Exo 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Or Jesus
If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15

In fact scripture shows God has a people who keep His commandments and faith in Jesus Rev 14:12 which of course includes the Sabbath commandment.

All Becomes New · Aug 19, 2023

To the SDA folks:

I said some things I should not have said. I should not attack your character, but the arguments. We are not going to come to an agreement about this, but I wanted to at least apologize for being rude.

Leaf473 · Aug 19, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
To the SDA folks:

I said some things I should not have said. I should not attack your character, but the arguments. We are not going to come to an agreement about this, but I wanted to at least apologize for being rude.

It's easy to get wrapped up in the heat of the moment. But you did the right thing there.

HIM · Aug 20, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Jesse Dornfeld said:

Which is why context is important. God is good and He can't do but good. But the Law was not perfect. It says so in Hebrews.

Click to expand...

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second one." (Hebrews 8:7)

That is being said in respect to the Covenant and Israel breaking the covenant not the Law. The agreement and Israel not keeping it was the issue and is where the fault lies. If the Law was the issue why bother to put it in our hearts?

HIM · Aug 20, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
To the SDA folks:

I said some things I should not have said. I should not attack your character, but the arguments. We are not going to come to an agreement about this, but I wanted to at least apologize for being rude.

Not an issue. Rudeness can be subjective. I did not see anyone calling anyone any names. And we can all appear to be or are condescending as we try to teach as we see or know at times.
And my friend, some things just need said.

Incidentally not everyone is an SDA,

HIM · Aug 20, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Let's try and different approach. What is the purpose of the Sabbath?

Physical Rest from work on the Day God sanctified BECAUSE He did at the end of Creating and because of the freedom He gives us from physical and spiritual bondage THROUGH Christ

Gary K · Aug 20, 2023

HIM said:
That is being said in respect to the Covenant and Israel breaking the covenant not the Law. The agreement and Israel not keeping it was the issue and is where the fault lies. If the Law was the issue why bother to put it in our hearts?

I'd just like to add that Hebrews says the new covenant is better because it is built on better promises. The Israelites said that they would do everything God commanded them to do. They failed because we under our own power cannot keep the law. The better promises are God's promises and as He is infinitely good and powerful has the ability to give us the ability to keep the law if we surrender ourselves to Him.

The other component in this is faith. When Jesus healed the two blind beggars He told them as your faith so be it unto you. Therefore if we don't believe God can give us the ability to keep His law we cannot no matter how hard we strive to keep it.

The last thing the devil wants people to understand is these principles of God's righteousness for they allow us to live olives that demonstrate the love of God to our fellow man in all it's aspects, both the letter and the spirit.

Leaf473 · Aug 20, 2023

HIM said:
That is being said in respect to the Covenant and Israel breaking the covenant not the Law. The agreement and Israel not keeping it was the issue and is where the fault lies.

HIM said:
If the Law was the issue why bother to put it in our hearts?

Please excuse my jumping in here, I would say that the reason to put the law in our hearts is so that we can understand the principles of the law. That's what's written in our hearts, the principles.

If a person does say that it's the letters written in our hearts, I would ask, In what language?

Gary K · Aug 20, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Please excuse my jumping in here, I would say that the reason to put the law in our hearts is so that we can understand the principles of the law. That's what's written in our hearts, the principles.

If a person does say that it's the letters written in our hearts, I would ask, In what language?

In whatever language they speak. That seems to be a silly objection to me.

Leaf473 · Aug 20, 2023

Gary K said:
In whatever language they speak. That seems to be a silly objection to me.

Well, it looks like you and I speak english. So, the letters of the law are written in our hearts. What translation?

All Becomes New · Aug 20, 2023

HIM said:
That is being said in respect to the Covenant and Israel breaking the covenant not the Law. The agreement and Israel not keeping it was the issue and is where the fault lies.

It can most certainly be both. Why did the Covenant fail? Because it was not faultless. There was a problem with it. That is why it did not work.

HIM said:
If the Law was the issue why bother to put it in our hearts?

Different law. The Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Not the letter of the Law. That is why Christ says, "Unless you are more righteous than the Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." It is a different idea altogether. It is about where our heart is, not where our behaviors are. That is why Ezekiel emphasizes the heart of flesh. It is about the heart, not the behavior. Else, the New Covenant is just like the Old Covenant. Hence why I point out there was a problem with the Old Covenant.

Gary K · Aug 20, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Well, it looks like you and I speak english. So, the letters of the law are written in our hearts. What translation?

And if we both spoke Russian or Chinese would it make a difference?

What's with the translation business?

HIM · Aug 21, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Please excuse my jumping in here, I would say that the reason to put the law in our hearts is so that we can understand the principles of the law. That's what's written in our hearts, the principles.

If a person does say that it's the letters written in our hearts, I would ask, In what language?

How is the Law which is His Word placed in our hearts and minds? God's Spirit through Christ.

Yekcidmij · Aug 21, 2023

Jesus didn't break the Sabbath even on some plausible Pharisee interpretation. In Pharisee interpretations, they looked at the Torah and derived that there were exceptions to work on Sabbath - ie, sometimes, depending on the circumstances, "working" on Sabbath was permissible. Two cases in particular were temple service or saving life. If one had to perform temple duties, those took precedence over Sabbath rest. If one had to save a life, saving a life took precedence over Sabbath rest.

Tosefta Shabbat 16:13

Rabbi Akiva said, “How does the Torah make Temple law more heavy than Sabbath law? It makes Temple law heavier than Sabbath law (in the following way): Now if Temple law overrides Sabbath law and Sabbath law does not override it (=Temple law), behold, here is an argument kal va-chomer, And if the saving of life overrides Temple law, saving of life overrides it (=Temple law), the Sabbath, that Temple law overrides it (= the Sabbath) is it not reasonable that the saving of life overrides it (= Sabbath law). Thus you have learnt that saving life overrides the Sabbath (law)!

The Rabbi's argued that there was a precedence, or priority, of laws: saving life > temple service laws > sabbath laws. This is interestingly very similar to the argument Jesus uses when explaining why he was allowed to pluck grain on Sabbath. He and his men were on the verge of starvation, which overrode Sabbath law. He and his mission were the proper location of the Temple (Mat 12:6), and since temple service overrode Sabbath law, service to Jesus did too. I think Jesus' reasoning would have been acceptable to many of the Pharisees - the part they may have had trouble with was him refering to himself and/or his mission as Temple service.

mikeforjesus · Aug 21, 2023

HIM said:
No he doesn't. Romans 14 is about man's opinion not God's word. Verse 1 sets the context. Verse 2 solidifies it. No where in God's word is said to only eat vegitables.

Rom 14:1 Now receive the one who is weak in the faith, and do not have disputes over differing opinions.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

I did not disagree with that it is man opinion but from other verses such as galatians saying if you are circumcised to be justified Christ will profit you nothing though it is arguable if sabbath keeping is not to be included if it is not law to Israel for all and Paul allows people to have own opinions but we know the truth as he said you don’t have to keep it so is safest to hold that view as written by the works of the law no flesh will be jusitifed to depend on any observance that got nothing to do with just doing right.

For bible says you who attempt to be justified by law in Old Testament you are required to keep the whole which even before was not sufficient and no one did though they also were not punished except for some sins as they trusted that Christ will come which people received Christ as expected but some tried to teach against promise of fathers as scribes and pharisees. The law was to point to christ who would no more remember their sins to punish on earth.

I am not arguing anymore though you could try to make plausible argument against just that it is clearly acceptable so just safest.

Gary K · Aug 21, 2023

Yekcidmij said:
Jesus didn't break the Sabbath even on some plausible Pharisee interpretation. In Pharisee interpretations, they looked at the Torah and derived that there were exceptions to work on Sabbath - ie, sometimes, depending on the circumstances, "working" on Sabbath was permissible. Two cases in particular were temple service or saving life. If one had to perform temple duties, those took precedence over Sabbath rest. If one had to save a life, saving a life took precedence over Sabbath rest.

Tosefta Shabbat 16:13

Rabbi Akiva said, “How does the Torah make Temple law more heavy than Sabbath law? It makes Temple law heavier than Sabbath law (in the following way): Now if Temple law overrides Sabbath law and Sabbath law does not override it (=Temple law), behold, here is an argument kal va-chomer, And if the saving of life overrides Temple law, saving of life overrides it (=Temple law), the Sabbath, that Temple law overrides it (= the Sabbath) is it not reasonable that the saving of life overrides it (= Sabbath law). Thus you have learnt that saving life overrides the Sabbath (law)!

The Rabbi's argued that there was a precedence, or priority, of laws: saving life > temple service laws > sabbath laws. This is interestingly very similar to the argument Jesus uses when explaining why he was allowed to pluck grain on Sabbath. He and his men were on the verge of starvation, which overrode Sabbath law. He and his mission were the proper location of the Temple (Mat 12:6), and since temple service overrode Sabbath law, service to Jesus did too. I think Jesus' reasoning would have been acceptable to many of the Pharisees - the part they may have had trouble with was him refering to himself and/or his mission as Temple service.

Nice to see someone else quoting from the Talmud.

Leaf473 · Aug 21, 2023

Gary K said:
And if we both spoke Russian or Chinese would it make a difference?

Yes, because then it would be in a different set of letters.

Gary K said:
What's with the translation business?

Did you say that that you believe the letters of the law are written in our hearts, and they are written in our native language?

The letters that are written in your English-speaking (I assume) heart, are they recognizable as one of the translations you can find on Bible gateway? Or are they from a currently unknown translation?

Leaf473 · Aug 21, 2023

HIM said:
How is the Law which is His Word placed in our hearts and minds? God's Spirit through Christ.

A big Amen to that! And what is placed on our hearts? The principles found in the law, or the actual letters of those laws?

Gary K · Aug 21, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Yes, because then it would be in a different set of letters.

Did you say that that you believe the letters of the law are written in our hearts, and they are written in our native language?

The letters that are written in your English-speaking (I assume) heart, are they recognizable as one of the translations you can find on Bible gateway? Or are they from a currently unknown translation?

You seem confused. What difference does it make what language God's law is written in in our heart? It;s going to be written in a language we understand. What is confusing about that, and why do you seem to think that is important?

Leaf473 · Aug 21, 2023

Gary K said:
You seem confused. What difference does it make what language God's law is written in in our heart? It;s going to be written in a language we understand. What is confusing about that, and why do you seem to think that is important?

It makes a huge difference if we're talking about actual letters.

The law that is written on your heart, is it written in a common English alphabet? The one we're communicating in right now?

If so, then there are some important questions you can settle

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