Jesus' commandments - opposed to His Fathers Commandments? - Really?

[stuart lawrence]

Do you bow down to images and promise to serve those they represent - in your worship service? yes or no?

This will help get you to answer your own question.



Interesting question - but i asked you a very specific question -- can you answer yes or no to it??

No I don't bow down to images in my church service.
Would you like to respond to my post now?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Do you bow down to images and promise to serve those they represent - in your worship service? yes or no?

This will help get you to answer your own question.



Interesting question - but i asked you a very specific question -- can you answer yes or no to it??

So now I answered your question.

If I commit adultery as a lifestyle, would you accept me as a christian if I professed to be one?

If I was a habitual thief, would you accept me as a christian if I professed to be one?

If i constantly watched pornographic films, would you accept me as a christian if I professed to be one?

If I constantly bore false witness, would you accept me as a christian if I confessed to be one?
If I constantly committed murder, would you accept me as a christian if I confessed to be one?
If I did not observe a set seventh day Sabbath, would you accept me as a christian if I professed to be one?

Specific questions That should easily be answered, without deflection!

 

[CrystalDragon]

IIRC, the punishment for breaking any one of God's commandments in the Old Testament (both the ones we consider the Ten Commandments and the ones actually called the Ten Commandments) was death. Not so for what Jesus said.

 

[BobRyan]

Feel free not to respond to this if you wish, but I was wondering something. You must believe I am committing wilfull, open rebellion against God without conscience.

Do you bow down to images and promise to serve those they represent - in your worship service? yes or no?

This will help get you to answer your own question.

If I could murder without conscience, would you consider I could be a Christian?

Interesting question - but i asked you a very specific question -- can you answer yes or no to it??

No I don't bow down to images in my church service.

ok fine. Thanks for answering.

The next question then is a form of - your own question at the top of this post. "I was wondering something. Are you saying that you believe that all Christians are committing wilfull, open rebellion against God without conscience - who choose to bow down before such images -- and to serve those represented by the image?"

Here again you can answer "yes or no" and then hopefully some explanation to go with it.

Then I will answer that same question. We can then compare our two "possibly very different" answers to that same question.

This will help us all better understand the POV you have in asking that question.

So that when I then answer your question - we have very good context and comparison for our two answers.

 

[BobRyan]

IIRC, the punishment for breaking any one of God's commandments in the Old Testament (both the ones we consider the Ten Commandments and the ones actually called the Ten Commandments) was death. Not so for what Jesus said.

In the NT 'The wages of sin is death' Romans 6:23
In the NT "sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

agreed?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Do you bow down to images and promise to serve those they represent - in your worship service? yes or no?

This will help get you to answer your own question.



Interesting question - but i asked you a very specific question -- can you answer yes or no to it??



ok fine. Thanks for answering.

The next question then is a form of - your own question at the top of this post. "I was wondering something. Are you saying that you believe that all Christians are committing wilfull, open rebellion against God without conscience - who choose to bow down before such images -- and to serve those represented by the image?"

Here again you can answer "yes or no" and then hopefully some explanation to go with it.

Then I will answer that same question. We can then compare our two "possibly very different" answers to that same question.

This will help us all better understand the POV you have in asking that question.

So that when I then answer your question - we have very good context and comparison for our two answers.

Its your turn to answer my question, when you do so, I will continue to answer yours

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Both scriptures were within the old covenant. You can't apply those to after the new covenant was in effect. Reversely No one commands the 4th commandment in the new covenant, not Christ nor anyone else. Christ, his disciples, and the Father worked on the Sabbath and those that follow God will as well.

Cutting to the bare facts then you are saying that "4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." should be replaced with, But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, AND NOT by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

So by your interpretation of scripture Jesus's words before the cross are null and void after the Cross. Using that analogy then there is no second coming as he said this before the new covenant.
John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Hello HC.

Jesus fulfilled all things in the law and the prophets, not some things!

Luke 24:44
Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

John 19:28
After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, said, “I am thirsty.”

that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” this statement does not say all laws are done away with only those that "were written about ME"

IE the Sanctuary, his first coming to earth as a human, his ministry, his death, ect. You appear to through all law into this statement therefor there should be no sin for "Sin is the transgression of the Law"

 

[BobRyan]

that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” this statement does not say all laws are done away with only those that "were written about ME"

IE the Sanctuary, his first coming to earth as a human, his ministry, his death, ect. You appear to through all law into this statement therefor there should be no sin for "Sin is the transgression of the Law"

Very true. Some laws are "predictive" and some are strictly "prescriptive" like "Do not take God's name in vain".

so for example we don't say "as soon as the first person does not take God's name in vain - then everyone else can take God's name in vain without that being a sin"

 

[BobRyan]

Its your turn to answer my question, when you do so, I will continue to answer yours

If I do that prematurely you will circle back to the point that remains unanswered in the second part of my question to you. I prefer that you answer it now - so we avoid that problem in the future.

You answer part two of that question.
I will answer part two of that question.

Then I will point out that this is the same answer -- to your question about the Sabbath.

And we both know it.

 

[stuart lawrence]

If I do that prematurely you will circle back to the point that remains unanswered in the second part of my question to you. I prefer that you answer it now - so we avoid that problem in the future.

Let me answer the questions for you.

If you knew anyone that had a lifestyle of breaking nine of the TC, on that basis you would not accept them as a christian.
So if you accept someone as a christian who lives a lifestyle of breaking the fourth commandment( as written) you must believe, in Gods sight that commandment is not as important as the other nine

 

[BobRyan]

Feel free not to respond to this if you wish, but I was wondering something. You must believe I am committing wilfull, open rebellion against God without conscience.

Do you bow down to images and promise to serve those they represent - in your worship service? yes or no?

This will help get you to answer your own question.

If I could murder without conscience, would you consider I could be a Christian?

Interesting question - but i asked you a very specific question -- can you answer yes or no to it??

No I don't bow down to images in my church service.

ok fine. Thanks for answering.

The next question then is a form of - your own question at the top of this post. "I was wondering something. Are you saying that you believe that all Christians are committing wilfull, open rebellion against God without conscience - who choose to bow down before such images -- and to serve those represented by the image?"

Here again you can answer "yes or no" and then hopefully some explanation to go with it.

Then I will answer that same question. We can then compare our two "possibly very different" answers to that same question.

This will help us all better understand the POV you have in asking that question.

So that when I then answer your question - we have very good context and comparison for our two answers.

Let me answer the questions for you.
If you knew anyone that had a lifestyle of breaking nine of the TC, on that basis you would not accept them as a christian.

So you are saying your answer to the above is that you would not accept all those millions of Christians that do bow down before images in their worship service and that promise to serve those the images represents -- as Christians?

I think we both know - that I do not join you in coming to that conclusion --

I also do not join your efforts to create a 'nine of the Ten Commandments" doctrine that is not found at all in scripture. Except where Jesus flatly condemns it in Mark 7:6-13... as we both know by now since that point has been discussed between us - dozens of times. Even the majority of your own pro-sunday scholars will not join your invented "nine of the Ten Commandments pass" idea.

But we also both know - that all your questions about the TEN Commandments to me - get resolved in this one case above. Because your other question and original question -- is nothing more than a "repeat" of the point just made in this post - only using a different Commandment.

I shall refer to this post as -- #94
in the future - if you decide later you want to see this point again.


Which now brings us back to the actual topic of this thread.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

I am not Bob and can not post for him, but let me say neither. Who is Moses speaking to in v 14 of your quote? According to the rules and common usage of English the word "you" does not mean generally all mankind. The word "you" is always exclusive and specified.

bugkiller

HI Bug

"Who is Moses speaking to in v 14 of your quote?"
Read verse 12 and you will see that it is the Lord speaking to Moses.

You need to read the whole verse in context and not parse the "YOU" out of it. It says "every one" that includes you and me does it not?
Does "you" apply to you when you read it? If it does not then we are in trouble of all being lost as the last portion of the verse says we shall be cut off.

14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

I am waiting to see how you parse "every one"

 

[Bob S]

Jesus Speaking
Matthew 4:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Hi Happy, I get your point. How does your foot feel? You just shot yourself. I am sure, once being SDA myself, that you are referring to the 10 commandments. Just one hitch brother God had a bunch more to say that you, as a SDA, ignore. You know like the other 603 commands God gave Israel. I have no idea why you would quote Matt 4, but since you did could it be because of the old pious attitude of SDAs? You know that one too, we, SDAs, are the ones who keep all of the commandments. Yes, the prophet saw a halo around the 4th one making it the most important one. One, if we ignore will erase our chance to gain eternal life according to Ellen. "But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth." {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}

To SDAs Sabbath is more important than the greatest command to love God, ourselves and our fellow man. The problem is that you cannot see the whole picture. Someone someplace has given you a lot of false information and you bought it hook, line and sinker, too bad and I say it from my heart not to belittle you. I did the same thing, it is easier to buy in rather than study for ourselves. Buying in was more costly than I ever imagined. :-(
Exodus 31King James Version (KJV)

31 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

God blessed the Israelites by seeing their plight in Egypt and brought them out. He wanted them to remember their deliverance by giving them the exclusive Sabbath. Deut 5: 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day. Exclusive in the sense that no other nation on Earth has ever been given that command. It was only for Israel and I do wonder where you get off telling the World that they too are to serve a dedicated day given only to Israel? Your prophet was wrong and the SDA church has been wrong ever since. Spreading falsehood isn't funny.

Bob S which one of the above scriptures is in error?

Neither one taken in its proper setting. What is in error are those who use those texts like you just did.

 

[Bob S]

Did the animal sacrifice system end with the crucifixion, Yes it was finished, completed (fulfilled)

Last time I looked the 10 commandments could not be fulfilled (to bring to an end; finish or complete,) only kept (obeyed) which Christ did.

Hi again Happy, I would have to say that you over looked scripture that proves the 10 commandments are not in effect, I would admonish you to read Galatians 3 and 4, Then turn to 2Cor 3:7-11 and finally 1Jn 3:19-24. In Gal Paul is referring to the Torah, study verse 19 , in 1Cor Paul is referring to the 10 commandment, study temporary, and in 1Jn John is telling Christians how to lead a Christian life, study believe and love. There is power in the Holy Writ. More power than needed to refute the false prophet.

 

[Bob S]

HI Bug

"Who is Moses speaking to in v 14 of your quote?"
Read verse 12 and you will see that it is the Lord speaking to Moses.

You need to read the whole verse in context and not parse the "YOU" out of it. It says "every one" that includes you and me does it not?
Does "you" apply to you when you read it? If it does not then we are in trouble of all being lost as the last portion of the verse says we shall be cut off.

14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

I am waiting to see how you parse "every one"

You want to argue who you is? Who is Moses speaking to in Deut 5:
5 Moses summoned all Israel and said: Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.

What gives you the authority to tell me I am included in that decree?

 

[CrystalDragon]

In the NT 'The wages of sin is death' Romans 6:23
In the NT "sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

agreed?

There's a difference.

In the Old Testament, there wasn't talk of any sort of afterlife punishment or the like, and all punishment was strictly for this life. In the New Testament punishment has a focus on the afterlife instead.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Do you bow down to images and promise to serve those they represent - in your worship service? yes or no?

This will help get you to answer your own question.



Interesting question - but i asked you a very specific question -- can you answer yes or no to it??



ok fine. Thanks for answering.

The next question then is a form of - your own question at the top of this post. "I was wondering something. Are you saying that you believe that all Christians are committing wilfull, open rebellion against God without conscience - who choose to bow down before such images -- and to serve those represented by the image?"

Here again you can answer "yes or no" and then hopefully some explanation to go with it.

Then I will answer that same question. We can then compare our two "possibly very different" answers to that same question.

This will help us all better understand the POV you have in asking that question.

So that when I then answer your question - we have very good context and comparison for our two answers.



So you are saying your answer to the above is that you would not accept all those millions of Christians that do bow down before images in their worship service and that promise to serve those the images represents -- as Christians?

I think we both know - that I do not join you in coming to that conclusion --

I also do not join your efforts to create a 'nine of the Ten Commandments" doctrine that is not found at all in scripture. Except where Jesus flatly condemns it in Mark 7:6-13... as we both know by now since that point has been discussed between us - dozens of times. Even the majority of your own pro-sunday scholars will not join your invented "nine of the Ten Commandments pass" idea.

But we also both know - that all your questions about the TEN Commandments to me - get resolved in this one case above. Because your other question and original question -- is nothing more than a "repeat" of the point just made in this post - only using a different Commandment.

I shall refer to this post as -- #94
in the future - if you decide later you want to see this point again.


Which now brings us back to the actual topic of this thread.

The trouble with these websites is. People will reason anything, deflect any way they have to in order to cling to the beliefs they came here with. Most of the tine it I just a scripture quoting contest. As those who come here are well versed in doing that, what I actually achieved? Nothing, but passing away a pleasurable pastime I guess ,, for those who like to quote scripture to others

 

[SAAN]

IIRC, the punishment for breaking any one of God's commandments in the Old Testament (both the ones we consider the Ten Commandments and the ones actually called the Ten Commandments) was death. Not so for what Jesus said.

The punishment still is death, thats why we are under grace to repent and turn to Christ and if you dont, unbelievers will face that punishment on judgement day.

 

[Bob S]

The trouble with these websites is. People will reason anything, deflect any way they have to in order to cling to the beliefs they came here with. Most of the tine it I just a scripture quoting contest. As those who come here are well versed in doing that, what I actually achieved? Nothing, but passing away a pleasurable pastime I guess ,, for those who like to quote scripture to others

Yeah I guess that leaves you with but one choice and that is to pick up your marbles and go home because we are not playing as you think we should. Your agate is better than mine.