Jesus' commandments - opposed to His Fathers Commandments? - Really?

[BobRyan]

There's a difference.

In the Old Testament, there wasn't talk of any sort of afterlife punishment or the like, and all punishment was strictly for this life.

Not quite. Enoch taken directly to heaven.
Elijah taken directly to heaven.

Moses and Elijah appear in glory - with Christ in Matt 17 before the cross.

The "New Heaven" and New Earth of Rev 21 mentioned in Isaiah 66:23 and the list is even longer.

 

[BobRyan]

The trouble with these websites is. People will reason anything, deflect any way they have to in order to cling to the beliefs they came here with.

Which is why having this sort of post #94 where you can see all the efforts to sidestep -- yet the focus is not lost and the answer finally does come through obvious for all objective unbiased readers to see clearly!

It is perfect!

Most of the tine it I just a scripture quoting contest. As those who come here are well versed in doing that, what I actually achieved? Nothing, but passing away a pleasurable pastime I guess ,, for those who like to quote scripture to others

hence the benefit of #94 where it all is revealed -- all the back and forth and finally the 'answer'

And in all honesty you have to admit you already knew that was the answer -- it has been the same answer about a dozen times on the "Why do people Like Seventh-day Adventists" thread --- and we both know it.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Which is why having this sort of post #94 where you can see all the efforts to sidestep -- yet the focus is not lost and the answer finally does come through obvious for all objective unbiased readers to see clearly!

It is perfect!



hence the benefit of #94 where it all is revealed -- all the back and forth and finally the 'answer'

Hence you using desperate measures to try and get out of an impossible situation.
You say Catholics pray to the dead. They don't believe they do. You say they worship graven images, they say they don't.
Why do you come up with all of this? Because your churches belief I untenable.
What is in your mind, you in your mind must obviously know. What is in your heart must grieve you when you disobey it.
The law us written on the mind of the believer and placed on their heart. They MUST be conscious they sin when they wilfully disobey that law. Absolute biblical fact.
As your church accepts as christians people who have no consciousness they commit sin by failing to observe a set Saturday Sabbath, That means, if you understood the NC, the fourth commandment as written is NOT written on the mind and placed on the heart of the believer.
So you have nowhere to go do you?
But, there's always graven images and praying to the dead i suppose, in order to stay in denial of spiritual facts

 

[CrystalDragon]

Not quite. Enoch taken directly to heaven.
Elijah taken directly to heaven.

Moses and Elijah appear in glory - with Christ in Matt 17 before the cross.

The "New Heaven" and New Earth of Rev 21 mentioned in Isaiah 66:23 and the list is even longer.

That passage in Isaiah never says it refers to the New Heaven and New Earth, and Revelation was written specifically for the church leaders of the time.

And as for those mentions of Elijah being taken directly to heaven, notice that there's no mention of the possibility of eternal punishment for anyone in the Old Testament. That's a New Testament thing.

 

[BobRyan]

Hence you using desperate measures to try and get out of an impossible situation.

Totally false - as we both know.

I am using the same rule for "do not make images or bow down or serve them" as for "Remember the Sabbath" and we both know it.

It is you that use different rules for one vs the other... and we both know it.

You say Catholics pray to the dead.

Paul says "The DEAD in Christ rise first". in 1Thess 4 -- Catholics freely admit to that.

The CCC
"958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective. "

They don't believe they do.

How many times do I need to quote CCC 958 on this point??

In any case -- it is you who said you would not accept anyone as Christian that bowed down to ... and promised to serve those represented by ... an image in church. By contrast - I flatly rejected your idea.

You say they worship graven images, they say they don't.

You are quoting "you" not me. I say they are bowing down before... and promising to serve .. those that the image represents.

you said that you would not accept a person as being Christian who did that.

I said that I would not join you in that aspect.

your idea is now fully exposed - it is you that make one rule for one commandment and another rule for Sabbath.

I treat them both alike - as does my entire denomination and in fact many Protestants join us in not condemning as "non Christian" those who bow down before...and promise to serve those being represented by... images in church.

And we both know it.

And they don't do that because they are trying to come up with some special rule for Sabbath breaking -- and we both know it.

What is more - you knew all of this when you started your question. it is you that makes different rules for different commandments and it is me that has the same rule and does not condemn as "non-Christian" those who differ with me.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

That passage in Isaiah never says it refers to the New Heaven and New Earth,

Indeed it does refer to the New heavens and NEW Earth.



22 “For just as the New Heavens and the New Earth
Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.

Rev 21:1
Then I saw a New heaven and a New earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3

and Revelation was written specifically for the church leaders of the time.

It was written in code - using the language of the OT text that Bible based Christians would understand - but Romans would not.

John quotes Isaiah extensively in his book of Revelation - all scholars admit it.

And as for those mentions of Elijah being taken directly to heaven, notice that there's no mention of the possibility of eternal punishment for anyone in the Old Testament. That's a New Testament thing.

New Testament

"Fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" -- Matt 10:28

that is NEW Testament - teaching of Christ

========================

Now... we return to the actual subject of the thread...

Jesus - was in full agreement with "God's Commandments" --

Mark 7:6-13... check it out.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Totally false - as we both know.

I am using the same rule for "do not make images or bow down or serve them" as for "Remember the Sabbath" and we both know it.

It is you that use different rules for one vs the other... and we both know it.



Paul says "The DEAD in Christ rise first". in 1Thess 4 -- Catholics freely admit to that.

The CCC
"958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective. "



How many times do I need to quote CCC 958 on this point??

In any case -- it is you who said you would not accept anyone as Christian that bowed down to ... and promised to serve those represented by ... an image in church. By contrast - I flatly rejected your idea.



You are quoting "you" not me. I say they are bowing down before... and promising to serve .. those that the image represents.

you said that you would not accept a person as being Christian who did that.

I said that I would not join you in that aspect.

your idea is now fully exposed - it is you that make one rule for one commandment and another rule for Sabbath.

I treat them both alike - as does my entire denomination and in fact many Protestants join us in not condemning as "non Christian" those who bow down before...and promise to serve those being represented by... images in church.

And we both know it.

And they don't do that because they are trying to come up with some special rule for Sabbath breaking -- and we both know it.

What is more - you knew all of this when you started your question. it is you that makes different rules for different commandments and it is me that has the same rule and does not condemn as "non-Christian" those who differ with me.

in Christ,

Bob

Catholics believe the dead/ departed are alive in heaven. Nor do they believe they worship statues. I am afraid it is just a desperate attempt by you to deflect from the spiritual truth I showed you.
If it was written on your mind you must observe a set seventh day Sabbath and placed on your heart you would have to know it.
But as the whole basis of your denomination is set on a seventh day Sabbath spiritual truth must be cast aside in order to defend your beliefs at all cost.
I understand that. Which in reality, makes internet debating futile concerning any meaningful discussion

 

[ewq1938]

The idea that Christ's teaching does not apply to the NEW Covenant - is news to most Christians.

.

Only those who don't understand that the new covenant started when Christ died. Before that the old covenant was still in effect.

 

[ewq1938]

So by your interpretation of scripture Jesus's words before the cross are null and void after the Cross. Using that analogy then there is no second coming as he said this before the new covenant.

That's very poor logic.

The cross changed many things including the 4th commandment. Resting on Saturdays was no longer commanded, animal sacrifices no longer commanded etc etc.

 

[bugkiller]

Not quite. Enoch taken directly to heaven.
Elijah taken directly to heaven.

Moses and Elijah appear in glory - with Christ in Matt 17 before the cross.

The "New Heaven" and New Earth of Rev 21 mentioned in Isaiah 66:23 and the list is even longer.

Proof that you do not read a post and post anything calling it a reply.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Hello HC.

Jesus fulfilled all things in the law and the prophets, not some things!

Luke 24:44
Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

You are reading a commentary version of the Bible or you chopped the last two words of the text from your quote. The Greek text includes these two words peri emou. The English is concerning me. Those two words are very important to the meaning of the passage.

John 19:28
After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, said, “I am thirsty.”

YEP

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

So now I answered your question.

If I commit adultery as a lifestyle, would you accept me as a christian if I professed to be one?

If I was a habitual thief, would you accept me as a christian if I professed to be one?

If i constantly watched pornographic films, would you accept me as a christian if I professed to be one?

If I constantly bore false witness, would you accept me as a christian if I confessed to be one?
If I constantly committed murder, would you accept me as a christian if I confessed to be one?
If I did not observe a set seventh day Sabbath, would you accept me as a christian if I professed to be one?

Specific questions That should easily be answered, without deflection!

So you continue to try and show every one obeys at least some of the law at least by incidence whether or not they intend to trying to enforce your version of sabbath.

No deal for me.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

In the NT 'The wages of sin is death' Romans 6:23
In the NT "sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

agreed?

No because the NT is not about the law. The law including the 10 Cs has no jurisdiction over the Christian per the Gospels of John and Luke not mention Romans, Galatians and II Cor.

bugkiller

 

[klutedavid]

You are reading a commentary version of the Bible or you chopped the last two words of the text from your quote. The Greek text includes these two words peri emou. The English is concerning me. Those two words are very important to the meaning of the passage.YEP

bugkiller

Hello BugKiller.

Not a commentary version, I would never use a commentary.

Chopped the last two words actually.

Sorry about that, always seeking the smallest post possible post to submit.

 

[stuart lawrence]

No because the NT is not about the law.

bugkiller
Sin is still the transgression of the law in the NT="bugkiller, post: 71046810, member: 376777"]So you continue to try and show every one obeys at least some of the law at least by incidence whether or not they intend to trying to enforce your version of sabbath.

No deal for me.

bugkiller

Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law rom3:31

 

[klutedavid]

Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law rom3:31

Hello Stuart.

We uphold the law but we are not under the law.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

 

[bugkiller]

Not quite. Enoch taken directly to heaven.
Elijah taken directly to heaven.

Moses and Elijah appear in glory - with Christ in Matt 17 before the cross.

The "New Heaven" and New Earth of Rev 21 mentioned in Isaiah 66:23 and the list is even longer.

That does not prove the OT teaches anything about eternal life.

bugkiller

 

[ewq1938]

Hello Stuart.

We uphold the law but we are not under the law.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Amen.

2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Gill

The law is "that which is done away"; not merely the ceremonial law, or the judicial law, but the whole ministry of Moses, and particularly the law of the Decalogue

Matthew Henry

The law is done away, but the gospel does and shall remain, 2Co_3:11. Not only did the glory of Moses's face go away, but the glory of Moses's law is done away also; yea, the law of Moses itself is now abolished. That dispensation was only to continue for a time, and then to vanish away; whereas the gospel shall remain to the end of the world, and is always fresh and flourishing and remains glorious.

Barnes

The splendor that attended the giving of the Law; the bright shining of the face of Moses; and the ritual institutions of his religion. It was to be done away. It was never designed to be permanent. Everything in it had a transient existence, and was so designed.

And here we see the ten commandments were "done away"...in favor of something that did not represent death but represented life! Something far more glorious than the old.

 

[bugkiller]

Indeed it does refer to the New heavens and NEW Earth.



22 “For just as the New Heavens and the New Earth
Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.

Rev 21:1
Then I saw a New heaven and a New earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3



It was written in code - using the language of the OT text that Bible based Christians would understand - but Romans would not.

Yep the ROMANS were very stupid. Just maybe that is why they have been in so much control over religious matters for many centuries.

bugkiller

 

[stuart lawrence]

Hello Stuart.

We uphold the law but we are not under the law.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Hello

I know