Japan and cremation

[The Liturgist]

I'm sure that Orthodoxy has an answer for that. In a report of the submersible that sank so many hundreds of meters in depth, it was said that in addition to being thoroughly crushed by the depth pressure, the bones, whatever remains, dissolve. Burials at sea don't involve such depths knowingly, but as the bodies are weighted down, it is conceivable that they are crushed too, well before the body decomposes through biologic or chemical actions.

I am not ready to declare apostasy and I don't have any problem with Orthodoxy's position on burials, but I think it isn't Orthodoxy's strongest position. For practical reasons. There are too many common circumstances of death where a body will not be available to be buried intact.

But ultimately, you can’t completely destroy a human, or anything else - you can only reconfigure it, at most thermalizing it (converting it to energy), but energy and matter are equivalent. But even if you could wipe something out of existence, or isolate us from it, by pushing it into a black hole, which is the closest one can get to annihilating something, and even it fails, due to Hawking Radiation, God, being omnipotent, can reconstitute and resurrect that person in the flesh.

The reason why we don’t cremate is out of respect for the human body as an icon of God, and not because of some potential inability for it to be resurrected if destroyed, although this superstition if I recall was common in the Roman church during its decline following the Great Schism of 1054, until relatively recently.

 

[RileyG]

Somewhat off topic, but I think the traditional inhumation is a wasteful practice, and is vain, ultimately. Before you go ballistic on me, I think the monastic practice of temporary burial, followed by the exhumation, cleaning and storage of the bones, is what should be done. And, would be practical for Japan as to land use, if that is an issue there.

I am unaware of this being available in the US. Seems to me that this would be a good 'business' for Orthodox monasteries to offer the Faithful. Since I will 'soon' need that service, does anyone know if it is available in the US?

I don’t know. Someone else can offer their opinion. I don’t think it’s wasteful.

 

[The Liturgist]

By the way @ArmyMatt do any of the canonical EO churches absolutely ban embalming? My impression has been that it is discouraged, but not prohibited like voluntary cremation.

 

[The Liturgist]

Somewhat off topic, but I think the traditional inhumation is a wasteful practice, and is vain, ultimately. Before you go ballistic on me, I think the monastic practice of temporary burial, followed by the exhumation, cleaning and storage of the bones, is what should be done. And, would be practical for Japan as to land use, if that is an issue there.

I am unaware of this being available in the US. Seems to me that this would be a good 'business' for Orthodox monasteries to offer the Faithful. Since I will 'soon' need that service, does anyone know if it is available in the US?

I don’t think there is enough demand for that, and also it should be noted that in most Orthodox countries, which are quite vast, there are cemeteries where this is not done, and where the relatives actively maintain the graves of their departed loved ones. The reason why monasteries follow their practices generally involves a limitation of space within the walls, this definitely being the reason why this is done at St. Catharine’s Monastery in Sinai. Also I would argue it relates to the deep brotherhood between the monks.

Now, in New Orleans, in the above ground cemetaries, there are shared burial vaults known as “ovens”, because their design causes the people buried therein to decompose rapidly, and then another body is placed into the same space, but it is not done in a particularly reverent manner. It is similiar to the stacking of bodies in German cemetaries. It historically has been the least expensive option for burial in New Orleans, but I would not advise any Orthodox Christian seek out something in New Orleans on the basis of religion - New Orleans is a beautiful city but it is, as far as religion is concerned, an area where i think the Orthodox Church should have a very active missionary presence, due to the widespread belief and popularity of voodoo, indeed, there is voodoo specific to New Orleans, and there are shared superstitions, that are the result of the interchange of “Folk Catholicism” and the Voudon religion imported from West Africa through the West Indies, and other folk beliefs, which effectively have formed a syncretic religion which is dark, twisted and evil. So New Orleans is a place that needs our prayers and needs our work, as anyone who has ever walked down Bourbon Street would know (I had the unpleasant experience of this when I was eleven years of age). Nonetheless, I love New Orleans, it is one of the most beautiful cities I have known, and I am thankful it has recovered from the terrible hurricane in 2005 as much as it has - I haven’t been there since the hurricane and I have indeed dreaded to go, due to the damage that occurred, although I think I will go soon on my upcoming trip to the south.

And i know there are Orthodox churches there, including a Greek Orthodox cathedral, an Antiochian Orthodox parish, and a Coptic Orthodox parish (Oriental Orthodox, but I love the Copts, such as my friend @dzheremi ), and I pray for their success. And of late, the Orthodox Church has been getting quite a lot of converts, so I am optimistic we can make a difference even in New Orleans. And what a glorious difference that would be, since New Orleans is the center of a few distinct ethnic groups that have historically had quite a rough time of it, such as the Creoles, discriminated against because of their “mixed-race” identity, which is infuriating to me, the Cajuns who live largely in the surrounding area and who were forcibly relocated to New Orleans from Canada after the British conquest of Acadia, which they renamed Nova Scotia (hence the name Cajun), the local African Americans, and indeed the other Southerners whose culture has of late been scorned unjustly for various reasons by some parts of the media.

 

[ArmyMatt]

By the way @ArmyMatt do any of the canonical EO churches absolutely ban embalming? My impression has been that it is discouraged, but not prohibited like voluntary cremation.

I don’t think there is a ban, but it is discouraged and frowned upon.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The reason for rejecting cremation is because of its association with paganism, and also the fact that it disrespects the divine image of human beings. Since we are created in the image of God, when one destroys a human, one is engaging the supreme act of Iconoclasm, destroying the image of God.

Okay, I am reminded of some scripture regarding why cremation would be problematic.

I also prayed for David.

 

[RileyG]

I don’t think there is a ban, but it is discouraged and frowned upon.

Thanks for the info.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thanks for the info.

yeppers

 

[notRusskiyMir]

I don’t think there is enough demand for that, and also it should be noted that in most Orthodox countries, which are quite vast, there are cemeteries where this is not done, and where the relatives actively maintain the graves of their departed loved ones. The reason why monasteries follow their practices generally involves a limitation of space within the walls, this definitely being the reason why this is done at St. Catharine’s Monastery in Sinai. Also I would argue it relates to the deep brotherhood between the monks.

Now, in New Orleans, in the above ground cemetaries, there are shared burial vaults known as “ovens”, because their design causes the people buried therein to decompose rapidly, and then another body is placed into the same space, but it is not done in a particularly reverent manner. It is similiar to the stacking of bodies in German cemetaries. It historically has been the least expensive option for burial in New Orleans, but I would not advise any Orthodox Christian seek out something in New Orleans on the basis of religion - New Orleans is a beautiful city but it is, as far as religion is concerned, an area where i think the Orthodox Church should have a very active missionary presence, due to the widespread belief and popularity of voodoo, indeed, there is voodoo specific to New Orleans, and there are shared superstitions, that are the result of the interchange of “Folk Catholicism” and the Voudon religion imported from West Africa through the West Indies, and other folk beliefs, which effectively have formed a syncretic religion which is dark, twisted and evil. So New Orleans is a place that needs our prayers and needs our work, as anyone who has ever walked down Bourbon Street would know (I had the unpleasant experience of this when I was eleven years of age). Nonetheless, I love New Orleans, it is one of the most beautiful cities I have known, and I am thankful it has recovered from the terrible hurricane in 2005 as much as it has - I haven’t been there since the hurricane and I have indeed dreaded to go, due to the damage that occurred, although I think I will go soon on my upcoming trip to the south.

And i know there are Orthodox churches there, including a Greek Orthodox cathedral, an Antiochian Orthodox parish, and a Coptic Orthodox parish (Oriental Orthodox, but I love the Copts, such as my friend @dzheremi ), and I pray for their success. And of late, the Orthodox Church has been getting quite a lot of converts, so I am optimistic we can make a difference even in New Orleans. And what a glorious difference that would be, since New Orleans is the center of a few distinct ethnic groups that have historically had quite a rough time of it, such as the Creoles, discriminated against because of their “mixed-race” identity, which is infuriating to me, the Cajuns who live largely in the surrounding area and who were forcibly relocated to New Orleans from Canada after the British conquest of Acadia, which they renamed Nova Scotia (hence the name Cajun), the local African Americans, and indeed the other Southerners whose culture has of late been scorned unjustly for various reasons by some parts of the media.

I believe Paris has piles of bones in its Catacombs, as does Rome. The practice was once common, and yes space is a factor, but the point is that it was a common practice in Europe.

 

[RileyG]

I believe Paris has piles of bones in its Catacombs, as does Rome. The practice was once common, and yes space is a factor, but the point is that it was a common practice in Europe.

That's correct.

 

[The Liturgist]

I believe Paris has piles of bones in its Catacombs, as does Rome. The practice was once common, and yes space is a factor, but the point is that it was a common practice in Europe.

That’s true, but unfortunately the Catacombs in Paris and Rome are not maintained in a suitably reverent manner but instead are operated for the benefit of tourists interested in the macabre. The model we see in Orthodox countries such as Romania and the Slavic lands, where families maintain the graves of their loved ones, is extremely ideal for purposes of laity. Indeed even in a monastic context, I would argue this is ideal, because it is beneficial to be able to identify the relics of someone discovered to have been glorified as a saint. This is not impossible otherwise, and indeed the ossuary process makes incorruptibility more apparent, and at a skeletal level, it is remarkable how incorrupt the remains of Orthodox monks tend to be compared to what one sees more generally. But I really think as a layman, we should trust the Church as a whole to provide correct policies for us depending on where we live and conditions such as space. Where required, for example, in the precincts of a Holy Monastery such as St. Catharine’s, the system you favor is in use. But it is not used preferentially in all cases.

 

[The Liturgist]

I don’t think there is a ban, but it is discouraged and frowned upon.

Yes I thought as much.

 

[RileyG]

That’s true, but unfortunately the Catacombs in Paris and Rome are not maintained in a suitably reverent manner but instead are operated for the benefit of tourists interested in the macabre. The model we see in Orthodox countries such as Romania and the Slavic lands, where families maintain the graves of their loved ones, is extremely ideal for purposes of laity. Indeed even in a monastic context, I would argue this is ideal, because it is beneficial to be able to identify the relics of someone discovered to have been glorified as a saint. This is not impossible otherwise, and indeed the ossuary process makes incorruptibility more apparent, and at a skeletal level, it is remarkable how incorrupt the remains of Orthodox monks tend to be compared to what one sees more generally. But I really think as a layman, we should trust the Church as a whole to provide correct policies for us depending on where we live and conditions such as space. Where required, for example, in the precincts of a Holy Monastery such as St. Catharine’s, the system you favor is in use. But it is not used preferentially in all cases.

Yeah. I think tourism is basically more focused on $$$$ rather than piety.

 

[RileyG]

Yes I thought as much.

I assume all bodies will eventually decompose. With the exception of those incorruptible that God has miraculously preserved.

(posting as a guest)

 

[The Liturgist]

I assume all bodies will eventually decompose. With the exception of those incorruptible that God has miraculously preserved.

(posting as a guest)

They will decompose unless preserved as a fossil, in which case they might last until destroyed by geological activity. Since we do not know when precisely Christ will return, the projection that the Earth itself will eventually in a few billion years exhaust its supply of water, and then be destroyed by the Sun as it expands after exhausting its supply of hydrogen, does not bother me, since even if the Earth is destroyed, God will deliver on His promise to make a new one, and indeed we expect the old Earth to pass away anyway.

 

[notRusskiyMir]

That’s true, but unfortunately the Catacombs in Paris and Rome are not maintained in a suitably reverent manner but instead are operated for the benefit of tourists interested in the macabre. The model we see in Orthodox countries such as Romania and the Slavic lands, where families maintain the graves of their loved ones, is extremely ideal for purposes of laity. Indeed even in a monastic context, I would argue this is ideal, because it is beneficial to be able to identify the relics of someone discovered to have been glorified as a saint. This is not impossible otherwise, and indeed the ossuary process makes incorruptibility more apparent, and at a skeletal level, it is remarkable how incorrupt the remains of Orthodox monks tend to be compared to what one sees more generally. But I really think as a layman, we should trust the Church as a whole to provide correct policies for us depending on where we live and conditions such as space. Where required, for example, in the precincts of a Holy Monastery such as St. Catharine’s, the system you favor is in use. But it is not used preferentially in all cases.

You are cleverly obscuring the fact that it was once common. THAT is the important part. Let's get in a better frame of mind. And it wasn't limited to those cities. It was widespread.

 

[The Liturgist]

You are cleverly obscuring the fact that it was once common. THAT is the important part. Let's get in a better frame of mind. And it wasn't limited to those cities. It was widespread.

I’m not trying to obscure anything. Please don’t ascribe an alterior motive to what I am saying.

My point was simply this: firstly, that these catacombs have unfortunately been made into ghoulish tourist attractions, which I am opposed to. Secondly, that the burial provisions of the Orthodox Church that exist at present are good, decent and proper, and if I were you I wouldn’t worry about it - if you really feel called towards that specific form of burial as part of your vocation, that might be a very good reason to visit a monastery, as there is always a need for pious men like yourself as vocations to sustain the monasteries. And if I were you, if your health permits, I would aim for whatever the best monastery was that you could get into that functions in that manner, such as an Athonite monastery, or St. Catharine’s, or perhaps one of the monasteries in Meteora.

 

[notRusskiyMir]

I’m not trying to obscure anything. Please don’t ascribe an alterior motive to what I am saying.

My point was simply this: firstly, that these catacombs have unfortunately been made into ghoulish tourist attractions, which I am opposed to. Secondly, that the burial provisions of the Orthodox Church that exist at present are good, decent and proper, and if I were you I wouldn’t worry about it - if you really feel called towards that specific form of burial as part of your vocation, that might be a very good reason to visit a monastery, as there is always a need for pious men like yourself as vocations to sustain the monasteries. And if I were you, if your health permits, I would aim for whatever the best monastery was that you could get into that functions in that manner, such as an Athonite monastery, or St. Catharine’s, or perhaps one of the monasteries in Meteora.

Nice of you to plot out my remaining years given my interest in an age-old Orthodox burial practice.

 

[The Liturgist]

Nice of you to plot out my remining years given my interest in an age-old Orthodox burial practice.

Forgive me, no offense was intended at all. I am simply unaware of any means in which this can be accessed other than via the monasteries which use it, which might include one in the US. I am not opposed to the practice, by any means, if that’s what you’re thinking. But I do regard it as extremely unfortunate how the catacombs in Rome, Paris and elsewhere have been turned into tourist attractions, so if catacombs do become a thing for the Orthodox faithful, for example, in Japan, as a solution to the space issue, I feel it is important that the church maintain control over them, which in the case of Rome did not happen, since unfortunately there was the schism and then more recently, the Papal States were conquered by the secularist regime in the 19th century, which led to the current situation, but the catacombs in Rome I think are treated with more reverence than those in Paris, since there is more awareness of the history of Christian martyrs being entombed therein.

 

[notRusskiyMir]

Forgive me, no offense was intended at all. I am simply unaware of any means in which this can be accessed other than via the monasteries which use it, which might include one in the US. I am not opposed to the practice, by any means, if that’s what you’re thinking. But I do regard it as extremely unfortunate how the catacombs in Rome, Paris and elsewhere have been turned into tourist attractions, so if catacombs do become a thing for the Orthodox faithful, for example, in Japan, as a solution to the space issue, I feel it is important that the church maintain control over them, which in the case of Rome did not happen, since unfortunately there was the schism and then more recently, the Papal States were conquered by the secularist regime in the 19th century, which led to the current situation, but the catacombs in Rome I think are treated with more reverence than those in Paris, since there is more awareness of the history of Christian martyrs being entombed therein.

Once again, the exhumation, cleaning and storage of bones was a common practice in Europe. If it isn't readily available, I think it should be, and early on here I suggested it would be a good way for a monastery to support itself by offering this service to the Faithful. I think I saw someplace charging $100 per month for storage of the bones, which is too high. I for one would be willing to pay the equivalent of a typical interment for this service.

In my concept, there wouldn't be a monthly fee, but the equivalent of an endowment - upfront payment. So, $8,000 - $9,000 per service? Perhaps more. I could see where special large mesh nylon shrouds could be used to keep the bones together and make retrieval a tad less gruesome. The monastery would be responsible to provide the service and to keep track of the location of the bones. I also read that the family is typically engaged in the exhumation (both inhumation and exhumation). All Orthodox, all good.