JAMES 5:6 ACTS 7:52 WAS JESUS "MURDERED"?

[LittleLambofJesus]

Here are at least 2 verses where Jesus used the greek word for "murder"?

Discuss.

5407. phoneuo fon-yoo'-o from 5406; to be a murderer (of):--kill, do murder, slay.
5406. phoneus fon-yooce' from 5408; a murderer (always of criminal (or at least intentional) homicide; which 443 does not necessarily imply; while 4607 is a special term for a public bandit):--murderer.

James 5:6
Ye condemn, ye murder<5407> the Righteous-One, not He is resisting to Ye.

ActS 7:52
“Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute?
And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One,
of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers<5406>,

Matt 23:
31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered<5407> the prophets.
34 `Because of this, behold!
I am Commissioning toward ye Prophets and Wisemen and Scribes,
out of Them ye shall be Killing and ye shall be Crucifying,...............

1 Thessalonians 2:
14 for ye became imitators, brethren, of the assemblies of God that are in Judea in Christ Jesus, because such things ye suffered, even ye, from your own countrymen, as also they from the Jews,
15 those putting to death the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and did persecute us,
and God they are not pleasing, and to all men [are] contrary,
16 forbidding us to speak to the nations that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always, but the wrath doth come upon them — to the end!

It appears the Romans were never accused of murdering Jesus, and in fact, Pilate tried to free him!

John 19:11

Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”
Mat 27:24
When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying,
“I am innocent of the blood of this just Person.[fn] You see to it.”


..................

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[brinny]

He freely "gave" His life. This supersedes the fact that He WAS murdered in cold blood. He had CHOSEN to lay down His life, willingly.

The bottom line is that He was not a "victim".

As it is written, no one "took" His life. He "gave" His life.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

They (the Jewish leaders) sought to murder Him.

Obviously He Laid Down His Life .

He couldn't be murdered/ killed/ by anyone...... when He breathed His last, He "gave up the Spirit", that was it.....

.............................................. His Heart Burst

for sinners, us. mankind.

 

[Residential Bob]

Acts 7:52 seems to say he was murdered.

The James passage, however, does not. James is berating the upper echelons of the temple hierarchy for their mistreatment and even murder of the more humble classes.

As I read it.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

He freely "gave" His life. This supersedes the fact that He WAS murdered in cold blood. He had CHOSEN to lay down His life, willingly.

The bottom line is that He was not a "victim".

As it is written, no one "took" His life. He "gave" His life.

Hi brin.
Yes..........the Scriptures must be fulfilled
Isaiah 53:
5 And he is pierced for our transgressions, Bruised for our iniquities, The chastisement of our peace [is] on him, And by his bruise there is healing to us.

Psalms 22:16
For dogs have surrounded Me, assembly of ones doing evil have encompass Me as a lion, hands of Me and feet of Me.

Mat 20
18 “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death,
28 “just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
Mat 26:24
“The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!
It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”
Mar 8:31
And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
Mar 10:33
“Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes;
and they will condemn Him to death and deliver Him to the Gentiles;

John 11:
49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all,
50 "nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish."



;

 

[brinny]

Hi brin.
Yes..........the Scriptures must be fulfilled
Isaiah 53:
5 And he is pierced for our transgressions, Bruised for our iniquities, The chastisement of our peace [is] on him, And by his bruise there is healing to us.

Psalms 22:16
For dogs have surrounded Me, assembly of ones doing evil have encompass Me as a lion, hands of Me and feet of Me.

Mat 20
18 “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death,
28 “just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
Mat 26:24
“The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!
It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”
Mar 8:31
And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
Mar 10:33
“Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes;
and they will condemn Him to death and deliver Him to the Gentiles;

John 11:
49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all,
50 "nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish."



;

Yes, He GAVE His life freely.

As i think on it, that's quite a "gift", isn't it?

 

[Lulav]

In a moving and courageous display of human decency, Pope John Paul II rose from his sickbed last month to travel to Israel and ask forgiveness of the world's Jews. The pope offered humble apologies for centuries of anti-Jewish activities by the Roman Catholic Church.

A central element of this historic appeal was an apology for the ancient Catholic teaching that "the Jews killed Christ." Since time immemorial, that accusation has been hauled out as an excuse for discrimination, pogrom and Holocaust. It is a complete distortion of history, and the pope's generous apology means it should never be repeated. ​

It appears the Romans were never accused of murdering Jesus, and in fact, Pilate tried to free him!

John 19:11

Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”
Mat 27:24
When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying,
“I am innocent of the blood of this just Person.[fn] You see to it.”

Jews in first-century Jerusalem didn't have the power to condemn criminals or crucify them. Only the Romans could nail you to a cross.

Pontius Pilate was not a soft touch like his predecessors. According to Jewish historians, who hated him, Pilate was determined to affirm the might and power of Roman rule. To make sure the Jews knew who was in charge, he ordered his legions to march into Jerusalem carrying graven images of the emperor. He showed so little regard for the Jewish leadership that the people of Judaea finally invoked the rights of all Roman subjects and petitioned the emperor to replace him. This hard-bitten Roman, not the Jews, was responsible for the death of Jesus Christ.


Throughout two millennia, Christian interpreters have diminished Pilate’s role in Jesus’s crucifixion for several reasons. A long Christian tradition has blamed the Jerusalem leaders and crowds for Jesus’s death. In the early centuries of the church, apocryphal stories emerged that removed all responsibility from Pilate and transferred it to the Jerusalem leaders. One story has Jesus giving Pilate permission to crucify him while blaming the Jewish leaders. Another story has the emperor Tiberius and Pilate blame the Jews for Jesus’s execution; Tiberius punishes them with a military attack and scatters them from Judea. Foregrounding the Jerusalem leaders emphasizes their responsibility. Such readings are marked by a strong anti-Judaism tone. ​

As is this thread.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Acts 7:52 seems to say he was murdered.
The James passage, however, does not. James is berating the upper echelons of the temple hierarchy for their mistreatment and even murder of the more humble classes.

As I read it.

Yes indeed!
They were the only ones Jesus condemned to "gehenna"

Is the "GEHENNA" of Matt 23:33 the "LAKE OF FIRE" in Revelation? Poll thread

Mat 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers!
Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath to come?
Mat 12:34
“Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things?
For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
Matthew 23:33
'Serpents! brood of vipers!
how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?
Luk 3:7
Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath to come?

Revelation 9:21
And not they reform/repent out of their murders,
nor out from their sorceries,...........

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Afterward, speaking primarily to his disciples but with the Pharisees (and probably the crowd) still listening in, Yeshua related the parable of the unjust steward (Luke 16:1-13).
The Pharisees, who were "lovers of money" (Luke 16:14), realized that the Messiah was alluding to them with this parable and took offense. They scoffed at Yeshua. The final part of his response to the derision of the Pharisees and scribes was the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

LUKE 16:24
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham[NC Faith/Life?]! have mercy on me! and send Lazarus[Resurrection]! that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue;
for I am[OC Law/Death?] tormented in this flame.' "

If the Pharisees and scribes understood Yeshua's prophetic parable, it must have astonished and infuriated them. How could the Jews become alienated from God while the elect Gentiles became the "seed of Abraham"?
The implication that the House of Judah and those called from the Gentile nations were to change places would have been almost impossible for the Pharisees and scribes to believe...................
While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage.
Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable.
This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews

................

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[LittleLambofJesus]

In a moving and courageous display of human decency, Pope John Paul II rose from his sickbed last month to travel to Israel and ask forgiveness of the world's Jews. The pope offered humble apologies for centuries of anti-Jewish activities by the Roman Catholic Church.

A central element of this historic appeal was an apology for the ancient Catholic teaching that "the Jews killed Christ." Since time immemorial, that accusation has been hauled out as an excuse for discrimination, pogrom and Holocaust. It is a complete distortion of history, and the pope's generous apology means it should never be repeated. ​

Jews in first-century Jerusalem didn't have the power to condemn criminals or crucify them. Only the Romans could nail you to a cross.

Pontius Pilate was not a soft touch like his predecessors. According to Jewish historians, who hated him, Pilate was determined to affirm the might and power of Roman rule. To make sure the Jews knew who was in charge, he ordered his legions to march into Jerusalem carrying graven images of the emperor. He showed so little regard for the Jewish leadership that the people of Judaea finally invoked the rights of all Roman subjects and petitioned the emperor to replace him. This hard-bitten Roman, not the Jews, was responsible for the death of Jesus Christ.


Throughout two millennia, Christian interpreters have diminished Pilate’s role in Jesus’s crucifixion for several reasons. A long Christian tradition has blamed the Jerusalem leaders and crowds for Jesus’s death. In the early centuries of the church, apocryphal stories emerged that removed all responsibility from Pilate and transferred it to the Jerusalem leaders. One story has Jesus giving Pilate permission to crucify him while blaming the Jewish leaders. Another story has the emperor Tiberius and Pilate blame the Jews for Jesus’s execution; Tiberius punishes them with a military attack and scatters them from Judea. Foregrounding the Jerusalem leaders emphasizes their responsibility. Such readings are marked by a strong anti-Judaism tone. ​

As is this thread.

The RCC misinterpreted the NT, as does a lot of Christianity today.

And for that reason, some of the Reformers started implying that Rome and the Pope were depicted in Revelation [Luther and SDA's for example] which made some Christians "anti-Catholic" because of that. When does it stop?

That aside, the next chapter after the butt-chewing Jesus gave the corrupt murderous Jewish rulers and condemning them to Gehenna, He then starts the Jerusalem/Temple discourse.
The Sadducees and High Priests were in charge of the Temple services for the common Jewish people and they disappeared from history in the 70ad holocaust......

Mat 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath to come? [This has to refer to 70ad]

3. The Sadducees

The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection of the dead or the immortality of the soul, since these doctrines are not mentioned in the law of Moses. Neither did they believe in heaven or hell. They interpreted the law literally and tended to support strict justice as opposed to mercy toward the offender. Since Jesus supported all these things opposed by the Sadducees, Jesus did not fit within the Sadducean movement.

Being closely associated with the Temple, the Sadducees disappeared from history when the Temple was destroyed in 70. The Essenes' center was Qumran; they are the movement that made the Dead Sea Scrolls. The gospels say nothing about the Essenes. Unlike the Sadducees of the Pharisees, the Essenes did not try to influence the whole people. Jesus certainly knew of the Essenes, but seems not to have interacted with them much, if at all.

Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
And His Disciples approached Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple.
2 And Jesus said to them, “ are ye not seeing all these?
Amen I am saying to ye, not no may be being left here stone upon stone, which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>.”

Mark 13:
1 And He going forth out of the Temple, one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner of stones and what manner of buildings”
2 And Jesus answering said to him, “thou are beholding these, the great buildings.
Not no may be being left here stone upon stone which not no may be being thrown-down<2647>

Luke 21:
5 and of some saying concerning the Temple, that to goodly stones and votive-offerings<334> it has been adorned<2885>
6 “These which ye are beholding.
Shall be coming days in which not shall be being left stone upon stone here which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>

Matthew 23
37 - “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather<1996> your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
38 Behold! the House of ye is being left desolate/a wilderness<2048>

Luke 13:
34 - “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!
35 Behold! the House of ye is being left desolate/a wilderness<2048>,

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived ; the solemn warnings and admonitions which they hold out to all nations, but especially such as are favoured with the light and blessings of REVELATION ; together with the impressive and terrific grandeur of the events themselves -

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover

Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive. The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen.

The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins ; and the Roman army as in triumph on the event, came and reared their ensigns against a fragment of the eastern gate, and, with sacrifices of thanksgiving, proclaimed the imperial majesty of Titus, with every possible demonstration of joy.

For five days after the destruction of the Temple, the priests who had escaped, sat, pining with hunger, on the top of one of its broken walls; at length, they came down, and humbly asked the pardon of Titus, which, however, he refused to grant them, saying that,
"as the Temple, for the sake of which he would have spared them, was destroyed, it was but fit that its priests should parish also:"
-whereupon he commanded that they should be put to death.
========================================
Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also will reject you from being priest for Me;
Because you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children.

Malachi 2
1 “And now, O priests, this command is for you.
2 If you will not listen, if you will not take it to heart to give honor to My name", says Yahweh of Hosts, "then I will send the curse upon you and I will curse your blessings.
Indeed, I have already cursed them, because you do not lay it to heart.
3 Behold, I will rebuke your offspring, and spread dung on your faces, the dung of your offerings, and you shall be taken away with it
7 For the lips of a priest should guard knowledge, and people should seek instruction from his mouth,
for he is the messenger of Yahweh of Hosts.
8 But you have turned aside from the way. You have caused many to stumble by your instruction.
You have corrupted the covenant of Levi, says Yahweh of Hosts



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[Lulav]

Brushing off what the RCC did and ignoring the 'recall' by Pope Francis does not refute this, at all. I don't know what you were trying to rebut with after that but it made not much sense in light of what I posted.

For five days after the destruction of the Temple, the priests who had escaped, sat, pining with hunger, on the top of one of its broken walls; at length, they came down, and humbly asked the pardon of Titus, which, however, he refused to grant them, saying that,
"as the Temple, for the sake of which he would have spared them, was destroyed, it was but fit that its priests should parish also:"
-whereupon he commanded that they should be put to death.

Titus was instrumental in forming Christianity? He didn't want the temple destroyed, he actually was quite upset when he heard news of it.

From the same place you got the above:

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world.

​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

They (the Jewish leaders) sought to murder Him.

Obviously He Laid Down His Life .

He couldn't be murdered/ killed/ by anyone...... when He breathed His last, He "gave up the Spirit", that was it.....Edit

.............................................. His Heart Burst

for sinners, us. mankind.

Well to be fair, it wasn't just the Jewish rulers that attempted to kill Jesus and also behead John the Baptist.......
The Herodians were in cahoots with the Jewish rulers at times.........

Mar 3:6
6 Then the Pharisees went out and immediately plotted with the Herodians against Him, how they might destroy Him
7 But Jesus withdrew with His disciples to the sea. And a great multitude from Galilee followed Him, and from Judea

I did a word study on this event concerning the beheading of JTB by King Herod and came up with something rather interesting.

The same word used for body/corpse in Mark 6:29, is also used in Matthew 24:28 and for the 2 Witnesses in Revelation 11:8-9

"Where the body/carcass is, there the eagles be gathered" Matt 24 Luke 17 70ad and Revelation

Mark 6:
24 And she went forth, and said unto her mother, What shall I ask? And she said, The head of John the Baptist.
27 And immediately the king sent an executioner, and commanded his head to be brought: and he went and beheaded him in the prison,
29 And when is disciples heard of it, they came
and took up his corpse/body<4430> and laid it in a tomb.

Matthew 24:28
for wherever the corpse/body<4430> may be,
there shall the eagles/vultures<105> be gathered together.

Revelation 11:
8 And their corpses/bodies<4430> shall lie in the street<4113> of the great City, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt,
where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their corpses/bodies<4430> three days and an half,
and shall not suffer their corpses/bodies/<4430> to be put in a tomb<3418>

Luke uses G4983

4983. soma so'-mah from 4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively:--bodily, body, slave

Luke 17:37
And they answering say to him, 'Where, sir?'
and He saith to them, 'Where the body<4983> is,
there will the eagles/vultures<105> be gathered together.'




.
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[LittleLambofJesus]

Brushing off what the RCC did and ignoring the 'recall' by Pope Francis does not refute this, at all. I don't know what you were trying to rebut with after that but it made not much sense in light of what I posted.

Titus was instrumental in forming Christianity? He didn't want the temple destroyed, he actually was quite upset when he heard news of it.

From the same place you got the above:

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world.

​

Titus did want to save it.
Just as Pilate tried to save Jesus, so did Titus want to save the Temple and he would have spared the Priests..
But God had no intention of sparing even 1 stone from the Temple.....

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:
2 And Jesus said to them, “ are ye not seeing all these?
Amen I am saying to ye,
not no may be being left here stone upon stone, which not shall be being thrown-down.”

Mark 13:1
And He going forth out of the Temple, one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner<4217> of stones and what manner<4217> of buildings”
2 And Jesus answering said to him, “thou are beholding these, the great buildings.
Not no may be being left here stone upon stone which not no may be being thrown-down

Luke 21:
5 and of some saying concerning the Temple, that to goodly<2570> stones and votive-offerings<334> it has been adorned
6 “These which ye are beholding.
Shall be coming days in which not shall be being left stone upon stone here which not shall be being thrown-down

Luke 19:44
“and level you, and your children within you, to the ground;
and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

A Roman soldier, urged, as he declared, by a divine impulse, regardless of the command of Titus climbed on the shoulders of another, and threw a flaming brand into the golden window of the Temple, which instantly set the building on fire. The Jews, anxious above all things to save that sacred edifice, in which they superstitiously trusted for security , with a dreadful outcry, rushed in to extinguish the flames. Titus also, being extinguish the conflagration, hastened to the spot in his chariot, attended by his principal officers and legions ; but in vain he waved his hand and raised his voice, commanding his soldiers to extinguish the fire ; so great was the uproar and confusion, that no attention was paid even to him.

The Romans, wilfully deaf instead of extinguishing the flames, spread them wider and wider.
Finding it impossible to restrain the impetuosity and cruelty of his soldiers, the Commander in chief proceeded, with some of his superior officers, to take a survey of those parts of the edifice which were still uninjured by the conflagration. It had not, at this time, reached the inner Temple, which Titus entered, and viewed with silent admiration.
Struck with the magnificence of its architecture, and the beauty of its decorations, which even surpassed the report of fame concerning them; and perceiving that the sanctuary had not yet caught fire, he redoubled his efforts to stop the progress of the flames..........................

Before their final demolition, however, Titus took, a. survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?"

After this he commanded that the city should be commanded razed to its foundations, excepting only the three lofty towers Hippocos, Phasael, and Mariamne, which he suffered to remain as evidences of its strength, and as trophies of his victory.. There was left standing, also, a small part of the western wall; as a rampart for a garrison, to keep the surrounding country in subjection.

Titus now gave orders that those Jews only who resisted should be slain ;
but the soldiers, equally void of pity and remorse, slew even the sick and the aged.



.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Of all the times I have read thru Josephus's account of the 70ad holocaust of Jerusalem, I had never noticed the "Sanctuary" mentioned, only the Temple.

Jesus mentions the buildings of the Temple, which would include the Sanctuary:

WHAT "MANNER OF BUILDINGS AND STONES 1ST CENTURY TEMPLE 70AD

Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple<2411>.
And His Disciples approached Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple.
Mark 13:1
And He going forth out of the Temple<2411>, one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner of stones and what manner of buildings"

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

A Roman soldier, urged, as he declared, by a divine impulse, regardless of the command of Titus climbed on the shoulders of another, and threw a flaming brand into the golden window of the Temple, which instantly set the building on fire...........
The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins

Struck with the magnificence of its architecture, and the beauty of its decorations, which even surpassed the report of fame concerning them; and perceiving that the sanctuary had not yet caught fire, he redoubled his efforts to stop the progress of the flames..........................
===================================
It is a Sanctuary being measured in Revelation, not the Temple!
In fact, the word for Temple#2411 is never once used in Revelation!

G3485 (YLT)
G3485 ναός (naos), occurs 46 times in 40 verses

It is used the 1st time when the father of John the Baptist goes in to perform the service of the Priesthood:

Luke 1:9
according to the custom of the priesthood, his lot was to make perfume, having gone into the Sanctuary<3485> of the Lord,

And Revelation 11:

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary<3485> of God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833>[water lavar/Altar of Sacrifice], without of the Sanctuary, be casting-out!<1544> out-side, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations
and the holy City they shall be treading<3961> forty two months

Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden<3961> by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Reve 11:2/13:10]

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints



.



.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Next up we have the stoning [murder?] of Stephen in Acts 7.

Acts 6
7 And the word of God did increase, and the number of the disciples did multiply in Jerusalem exceedingly; a great multitude also of the priests were obedient to the faith.
8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, was doing great wonders and signs among the people, 9 and there arose certain of those of the synagogue, called of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of those from Cilicia, and Asia, disputing with Stephen 12 They did stir up also the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and having come upon [him], they caught him, and brought [him] to the sanhedrin;
15 and gazing at him, all those sitting in the sanhedrin saw his face as it were the face of a messenger.
Acts 7
1 And the chief priest said, ‘Are then these things so?’
51 ‘Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and in ears! ye do always the Holy Spirit resist; as your fathers — also ye; 52 which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed those who declared before about the coming of the Righteous One, of whom now ye betrayers and murderers have become,
59 and they were stoning Stephen, calling and saying, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit;’ 60 and having bowed the knees, he cried with a loud voice, ‘Lord, mayest thou not lay to them this sin;’ and this having said, he fell asleep.

Matthew 10:17
Be on your guard; you will be handed over to sanhedrins<4892>
and be flogged in the synagogues.
Mark 13:9
But take ye heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to sanhedrins<4892>
and in synagogues shall ye be beaten; and before governors and kings shall ye stand for my sake, for a testimony unto them.
Matthew 23:34
“Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes:
some of them you will kill and crucify,
and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues
and persecute from city to city,
Mark 13:9
“But watch out for yourselves,
for they will deliver you up to sanhedrins,
and you will be beaten in the synagogues.
You will be brought[fn] before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them.
Luke 21:12
“But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you
and persecute you,
delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons.
You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.

James is killed and Peter is thrown in prison, as prophecied by Jesus.

Act 12:2

1 And about that time, Herod the king put forth his hands, to do evil to certain of those of the assembly,
2 and he killed James, the brother of John, with the sword,
3 and having seen that it is pleasing to the Jews, he added to lay hold of Peter also -- and they were the days of the unleavened food --
Act 12:5
Peter, therefore, indeed, was kept in the prison, and fervent prayer was being made by the assembly unto God for him,

Paul is thrown in prison

Act 16:19
And her masters having seen that the hope of their employment was gone, having caught Paul and Silas, drew them to the market-place, unto the rulers,
many blows also having laid upon them, they cast them to prison, having given charge to the jailor to keep them safely,

They also attempted to kill Paul:

Act 23:
11 And on the following night, the Lord having stood by him, said, 'Take courage, Paul, for as thou didst fully testify the things concerning me at Jerusalem, so it behoveth thee also at Rome to testify.'

14 Who-any toward coming to the Chief-priests and to the Elders say "to-anathema<331> we anathemtize<332> ourselves of no yet nothing to taste till of which we may be killing Paul.
16 So when Paul's sister's son heard of their ambush, he went and entered the barracks and told Paul.

Paul appeals to Caesar and goes to Rome:

Act 25
2 Then the high priest[fn] and the chief men of the Jews informed him against Paul; and they petitioned him,
3 asking a favor against him, that he would summon him to Jerusalem—while they lay in ambush along the road to kill him.
9 “For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them.
I appeal to Caesar.”
Act 28:16
And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered up the prisoners to the captain of the barrack, but Paul was suffered to remain by himself, with the soldier guarding him.

Mark 13:9
You will be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them.
Luke 21:12
delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons.
You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.

Interesting that Revelation also mentions the Saints being cast into a prison.

Rev 2:10
'Be not afraid of the things that thou art about to suffer; behold!
the devil is about to cast of you to a prison, that ye may be tried, and ye shall have tribulation ten days;
become thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the crown of the life.

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[LittleLambofJesus]

Jews in first-century Jerusalem didn't have the power to condemn criminals or crucify them. Only the Romans could nail you to a cross.

Pontius Pilate was not a soft touch like his predecessors. According to Jewish historians, who hated him, Pilate was determined to affirm the might and power of Roman rule. To make sure the Jews knew who was in charge, he ordered his legions to march into Jerusalem carrying graven images of the emperor. He showed so little regard for the Jewish leadership that the people of Judaea finally invoked the rights of all Roman subjects and petitioned the emperor to replace him. This hard-bitten Roman, not the Jews, was responsible for the death of Jesus Christ.​

Thank you for that info.

Unfortunately, I have not really delved into the history of ancient Rome or Babylon, so I will put up what I found.

Just as God sent the Babylonians against Jerusalem around 597bc, that Empire in turn got conquered around 539bc. Is this that prophecy?
Jer 25:12
‘Then it will come to pass, when seventy years are completed, that I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity,' says the LORD; ‘and I will make it a perpetual desolation.

Rome and the Roman Empire got conquered by around 476ad, about 400 yrs after the sacking of Jerusalem.

When I read up on the historic Fall of Rome, I saw a picture showing the sacking of Rome.
It was eerily similar to the sacking of Jerusalem by Rome in 70ad.
[I really have to look into this deeper].

This picture shows a Menorah being taken during the sacking of Rome.

Sack of Rome (455) - Wikipedia

What Caused The Fall of the Roman Empire?

This shows the Roman army carrying off the Menorah after the sacking of Jerusalem.

Jewish–Roman wars - Wikipedia

Depiction of the Roman triumph celebrating the Sack of Jerusalem on the Arch of Titus in Rome. The procession features the Menorah and other vessels taken from the Second Temple.

...

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[Lulav]

Thank you for that info.

Unfortunately, I have not really delved into the history of ancient Rome or Babylon, so I will put up what I found.

Just as God sent the Babylonians against Jerusalem around 597bc, that Empire in turn got conquered around 539bc. Is this that prophecy?
Jer 25:12
‘Then it will come to pass, when seventy years are completed, that I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity,' says the LORD; ‘and I will make it a perpetual desolation.

Rome and the Roman Empire got conquered by around 476ad, about 400 yrs after the sacking of Jerusalem.

When I read up on the historic Fall of Rome, I saw a picture showing the sacking of Rome.
It was eerily similar to the sacking of Jerusalem by Rome in 70ad.
[I really have to look into this deeper].

This picture shows a Menorah being taken during the sacking of Rome.

Sack of Rome (455) - Wikipedia

What Caused The Fall of the Roman Empire?

This shows the Roman army carrying off the Menorah after the sacking of Jerusalem.

Jewish–Roman wars - Wikipedia

Depiction of the Roman triumph celebrating the Sack of Jerusalem on the Arch of Titus in Rome. The procession features the Menorah and other vessels taken from the Second Temple.

View attachment 247896...View attachment 247897


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And? I don't know what any of that has to do with what I posted.

It was pretty clear though for someone searching for both sides of the story.

You might be interested in reading this thesis on Pilate