• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.

Featured Jacob’s Trouble and the Great Tribulation

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Sep 15, 2017.

  1. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

    +28,467
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    Jacob’s Trouble and the Great Tribulation

    It is the land of Judea and Jerusalem that went thru it....Josephus, the Olivet Discourse and Revelation go together like white on rice......the Jews already went thru Jacob's trouble.....Keep it simple

    Daniel 12:1
    "In that time Michael shall stand-up, the chief/prince, the great, the one standing over sons of thy people;
    And a time of distress, which not occurred since to become of a nation, until that time.
    And in that time, thy people shall escape, everyone being found being written in scroll.


    Matthew 24:21
    for then shall be great Tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of world till now, no, nor may be becoming

    Who is Jesus talking to in Luke 21 and 23?

    Luk 21:
    23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
    Luke 23:
    28 But Jesus turned to them and said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children.
    29 Behold! the days are coming when people will say, ‘Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed.’
    30 At that time, ‘They will say to the mountains, “Fall on us,” and to the hills, “Cover us.”’


    Reve 6:16
    And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks: 'Be falling on us! and hide us! from Face of the One sitting upon the Throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb" [Hosea 10:8/Luke 23:30]


    The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
    The Destruction Of JERUSALEM
    An Absolute and Irresistible PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY:


    The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah!.........................

    Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
    The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen.
    In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ; and had actually eaten one half thereof, when the soldiers, allured by tile smell of food, threatened her with instant death if she refused to discover it.'Intimidated by this menace, she immediately produced the remains of her son, which petrified them with horror..................
    A Roman soldier, urged, as he declared, by a divine impulse, regardless of the command of Titus climbed on the shoulders of another, and threw a flaming brand into the golden window of the Temple, which instantly set the building on fire.

    Reve 18:8
    by this, in one day shall be arriving the blows of Her, death and sorrow and famine; and in fire She shall be being burned, that strong Lord, the God, the one judging Her
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  2. Penny Feeley

    Penny Feeley Devout Christian Supporter

    32
    +16
    United States
    Christian
    Married
     
  3. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,931
    Christian
    Single

    No, my dear LLOJ, Jacob's Trouble and the 70th week of Daniel, together with Jesus amplification of them in His Olivet Discourse, culminating in His second coming, have not yet taken place. Clearly delineated in the OP.

    As Rev.1"3 states, it is a book of prophecy, from chapters 4 through chapter 22.


    God bless.


    Quasar92
     
  4. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +5,013
    Christian
    Married
    Daniel chapter 9 is the timeline of the New Covenant Messiah.

    Based on Acts 10:38 and Hebrews 10:16-18, Daniel 9:24 was fulfilled during the first century.


    We find a time of about 7 years when the Gospel was taken to Daniel's people in Matthew 10:5-7 and Galatians 1:14-18. This was Daniel's 70th week.

    The scriptural reference beside of Daniel 9:27 in my NKJV Bible, is Matthew 26:28.

    The time of "Jacob's Trouble" occurred during the captivity in Babylon, based on the context of Jeremiah chapter 30.


    The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

    .
     
  5. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,931
    Christian
    Single

    13.4 Jacob's trouble and the Great Tribulation

    Two other titles which are related to the coming Day of the Lord are the Time of Jacob’s Trouble and the Great Tribulation.1 Notice that all three involve the concept of an unparalleled time of trouble. Unparalleled implies two things concerning the time periods involved:


    1. Since there cannot be more than one unparalleled time of trouble, their time periods must overlap.2
    • These events have not transpired in the past.3
    Regarding the timing of the Great Tribulation, Jesus said

    “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.” (Mtt. Mat. 24:15-22)

    Jesus referred to this Daniel Dan. 9:27 “overspreading of abominations” in Matthew Mat. 24:15. Then He said, “then shall be Great Tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be” (Mtt. Mat. 24:21), thereby indicating that the Great Tribulation will begin when the overspreading of abominations of Daniel Dan. 9:27 occurs. Since the Great Tribulation will begin when the overspreading of abominations occurs in the middle of the 70th week, we can conclude that the Great Tribulation will begin in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel, or after the first three and one-half years of that seven-year period have transpired.4

    Notice Jesus says, “let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains” and “pray that your flight may not be . . . on the Sabbath.” There is an explicit Jewish element to this entire passage. This is because the events are related to the Time of Jacob’s Trouble described by Jeremiah:
    ‘For behold, the days are coming,’ says the LORD, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says the LORD. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.’ Now these are the words that the LORD spoke concerning Israel and Judah. For thus says the LORD: ‘We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask now, and see, whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins like a woman in labor, and all faces turned pale? Alas! For that day is great, so that none is like it; and it is the time of Jacob’s trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.’ (Jer. Jer. 30:3-7)

    Notice several important aspects within this passage:


    1. Jacob is Israel - Jacob fathered the 12 tribes and was given the name Israel by God (Gen. Gen. 32:28). Thus, this is describing a time of trouble specifically for the Jews.

      • Gathering in the Land - This time of trouble occurs after Israel is gathered back in the Promised Land.
      • Birth Pangs - The passage refers to every man acting “like a woman in labor.” How similar this is to the words of Jesus, “All these are the beginning of sorrows” (Mtt. Mat. 24:8). Sorrows (ωδιν [ōdin] ) indicates “a pang or throe, especially of childbirth.” [emphasis added]5
    • A Unique Day - There is no other day like it.
    • Results in Salvation - “But he shall be saved out of it.” Although the Jews undergo an extremely troubling time, salvation comes at the end.6
    The Jewish aspect of this period can also be seen in the wider context of Micah’s well-known prophecy concerning the birthplace of Messiah:
    Now gather yourself in troops, O daughter of troops; He has laid siege against us; they will strike the judge of Israel with a rod on the cheek. But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting. Therefore He shall give them up, until the time that she who is in labor has given birth; then the remnant of His brethren shall return to the children of Israel. And He shall stand and feed His flock In the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD His God; and they shall abide, for now He shall be great to the ends of the earth. (Mic. Mic. 5:1-4) [emphasis added]

    Scripture record’s two pregnancies in relation to Messiah. The first labor terminates in the First Coming of Messiah (Rev. Rev. 12:2-4+). The second labor terminates in the ushering in of the Millennial Kingdom. It is this second period of labor, subsequent to the going forth of Messiah from Bethlehem, which Micah sets forth. This second labor leads to the millennial age: “For now He shall be great to the ends of the earth.” The time of Jacob’s trouble describes the labor pains associated with the second pregnancy.
    “She who travaileth” does not refer to Israel bringing forth (giving birth to) Messiah, but to her last-day Tribulation travail (Jer. Jer. 30:5-7) in bringing forth a believing remnant, . . . Israel’s greatest and most anguishing sufferings of all her long and checkered history of woe will take place during the coming Great Tribulation (Rev. Rev. 8:1+-Rev. 20:3+). Her terrible travail pains that in God’s plan precede the joy of birth (cf. Mic. Mic. 4:9; cf. John John 16:21), will bring forth a regenerated nation to enter the joy of the Kingdom, which will be as unparalleled as the agony that introduces it.7

    This period is mentioned in the book of Revelation and also Daniel which provides additional details as to its duration:8
    Revelation Rev. 12:1+ states the length of time this persecution and hiding of the Jews in the wilderness will last . . . it will last 1,260 days (Rev. Rev. 12:6+) . . . Revelation Rev. 12:14+ states that Israel will hide in the wilderness from Satan for “a time, and times, and half a time.” Daniel Dan. 7:25 uses this identical time designation for the length of time that the Antichrist will persecute the saints of the 70th week. . . . Revelation Rev. 13:5-7+, when referring to this same persecution of 70th-week saints by the Antichrist, declares that it will last for 42 months, which equal three and one-half years. . . . The Jews will be persecuted and will hide in a wilderness area for three and one-half years, exactly one-half of the seven-year 70th week. . . . the Great Tribulation will be finished when God has completely shattered the obstinate rebellion of the nation of Israel against Him [Dan. Dan. 9:24; Dan. 12:7]. In other words, the Great Tribulation will end when Israel’s rebellion against God’s rule ends.9

    Scofield summarizes the character of this unique period:
    The elements of the tribulation are: (1) The cruel reign of the “beast out of the sea” (Rev. Rev. 13:1+), who, at the beginning of the three and a half years, will break his covenant with the Jews (by virtue of which they will have re-established the temple worship, Dan. Dan. 9:27), and show himself in the temple, demanding that he be worshipped as God (Mtt. Mat. 24:15; 2Th. 2Th. 2:4). (2) The active interposition of Satan “having great wrath” (Rev. Rev. 12:12+), who gives his power to the Beast (Rev. Rev. 13:4+, Rev. 13:5+). (3) The unprecedented activity of demons (Rev. Rev. 9:2+, Rev. 9:11+); and (4) the terrible “bowl” judgments of Rev. Rev. 16:1+.10

    Although the book of Revelation indicates that all those living on the earth immediately prior to the return of Jesus will be involved in troublesome times, this is especially true for the Jews. This is because God applies judgment first and more fully to those who have greater revelation and responsibility (Amos Amos 3:2; Luke Luke 12:48).11
    While it is true that all will suffer during that time, Israel will suffer more so. The basic reason for this lies in Israel’s relationship to God as God’s first born (Ex. Ex. 4:22) and, therefore, Israel receives double, both in blessing and cursing. The principle that Israel receives double for all her sins is stated in Isaiah Isa. 40:1-2 . . . It is also found in Jeremiah Jer. 16:16-18. The principle of Israel’s receiving double for all her sins is the reason why the Tribulation is uniquely the Time of Jacob’s Trouble.12

    Stanton shows the Jewish character of the period by saying: Deu. 4:30; Jer. Jer. 30:7; Eze. Eze. 20:37; Dan. Dan. 12:1; Zec. Zec. 13:8-9), by the Olivet Discourse of Christ (Mtt. Mat. 24:9-26), and by the book of Revelation itself (Rev. Rev. 7:4-8+; Rev. 12:1-2+, Rev. 12:17+ etc.). It concerns ‘Daniel’s people,’ the coming of ‘false Messiah,’ the preaching of the ‘gospel of the kingdom,’ flight on the ‘sabbath,’ the temple and the ‘holy place,’ the land of Judea, the city of Jerusalem, the twelve ‘tribes of the children of Israel,’ the ‘son of Moses,’ ‘signs’ in the heavens, the ‘covenant’ with the Beast, the ‘sanctuary,’ the ‘sacrifice and the oblation’ of the temple ritual—these all speak of Israel and prove that the tribulation is largely a time when God deals with His ancient people prior to their entrance into the promised kingdom.”13

    Our study of the book of Revelation will greatly benefit by keeping in mind the purposes God has for this period of time:
    The first purpose is to make an end of wickedness and wicked ones (Isa. Isa. 13:9; Isa. Isa. 24:19-20) . . . The second purpose of the Tribulation is to bring about a worldwide revival (Rev. Rev. 7:1-7+) . . . The Third purpose of the Tribulation is to break the power of the stubborn will of the Jewish nation (Dan. Dan. 12:5-7; Eze. Eze. 20:33-38).14

    The Old Testament presents at least five purposes for the Tribulation. 1 . The Tribulation will complete the decreed period of national Israel’s judicial hardening as punishment for its rejection of the messianic program, which the partial return from exile did not remove and which culminated in the national rejection of Jesus (Isa. Isa. 6:9-13; Isa. 24:1-6; cf. John John 12:37-41; Rom. Rom. 11:7-10). 2 . It will produce a messianic revival among Jewish people scattered throughout the world (Deu. Deu. 4:27-30; cf. Rev. Rev. 7:1-4+; Mtt. Mat. 24:14). 3 . The Tribulation will convince the Jewish nation of their need for the Messiah in order to produce a national regeneration (Dan. Dan. 12:5-7; Jer. Jer. 31:31-34; Eze. Eze. 20:34-38; Eze. 36:25-27; Eze. 37:1-14; Zec. Zec. 12:9-Zec. 13:2; Isa. Isa. 59:20-21). This will result in a massive return of Jews to the land of Israel (Zec. Zec. 8:7-8; Eze. Eze. 36:24; Eze. 37:21). 4 . It will end the time of the Gentiles and effect the deliverance of the Jewish people from Gentile dominion (Isa. Isa. 24:21-23; Isa. 59:16-20; cf. Mtt. Mat. 24:29-31; Mark Mark 13:24-27; Rom. Rom. 11:25). 5 . The Tribulation will purge the earth of wicked people in order to establish the Messianic Kingdom in righteousness (Isa. Isa. 13:9; Isa. 24:19-20; Eze. Eze. 37:23; Zec. Zec. 13:2; Zec. 14:9; Isa. Isa. 11:9). This violent reduction of the world’s unbelieving population will result from the divine judgments unleashed throughout the Tribulation (Rev. Rev. 6:1+-Rev. 18:1+), climaxing with the Battle of Armageddon under King Messiah (Rev. Rev. 19:1+) and His purge of rebel Jews and oppressive Gentiles at the end of the Tribulation (Eze. Eze. 20:33-38; Mtt. Mat. 25:31-46).15

    Source: 13.4. Jacob’s Trouble and the Great Tribulation Commentary - A Testimony of Jesus Christ


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2017
  6. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

    +3,219
    Deist
    US-Libertarian
    And this is for you the sign [of the coming of Messiah]: that you see a septenary that begins with rain; in the second year, arrows of famine are sent out; in the third, there is great famine; and in the fourth - neither hunger nor plenty; in the sixth, great plenty, and a star will grow from the east with a staff on its head, and that is the star of Israel...and if it lights up, that is for the benefit of Israel, and then will sprout up Messiah ben David. And this is the sign for you: when you see the eastern Nero [i.e., emperor] in Damascus has fallen, and the kingdom of the Children of the East has fallen, then will salvation sprout up for Israel, and the Messiah ben David will come, and they will ascend to Jerusalem and enjoy it... - Nistarot R. Shi'mon ben Yohai, Beit ha Midrash 3:82
     
  7. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

    +3,219
    Deist
    US-Libertarian
    R. Kattina said: Six thousand years shall the world exist, and one [thousand, the seventh], it shall be desolate, as it is written, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. Abaye said: it will be desolate two [thousand], as it is said, After two days will he revive us: in the third day, he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

    It has been taught in accordance with R. Kattina: Just as the seventh year is one year of release in seven, so is the world: one thousand years out of seven shall be fallow, as it is written, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day,' and it is further said, A Psalm and song for the Sabbath day, meaning the day that is altogether Sabbath — and it is also said, For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past.

    The Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches: The world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation; two thousand years the Torah flourished; and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era, but through our many iniquities all these years have been lost.


    Elijah said to Rab Judah, the brother of R. Salia the pious: 'The world shall exist not less than eighty five jubilees, and in the last jubilee the son of David will come.' He asked him, 'At the beginning or at the end?' — He replied, 'I do not know.' 'Shall [this period] be completed or not?' — 'I do not know,' he answered. R. Ashi said: He spoke thus to him, 'Before that, do not expect him; afterwards thou mayest await him.' - b. Sanhedrin 97a-b
     
  8. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

    +1,884
    Christian
    Married
    Wow.. all want to say is.. seek and you will find.. nice..
     
  9. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,900
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Quasar92, you plagiarized. Besides, Jerusalem is under Jewish control and not being ruled by Gentiles.

    Even if Jerusalem were to become 60 square miles, like you posted, it would not be the largest city in the world in terms of land mass. There are more people living in Shanghai, China than in all of Israel.

    In 3.5 years, figure you sided with a false prophet.
     
  10. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,931
    Christian
    Single

    Show me what I am plagiarizing! FYI, my post #11, about Jacob's trouble and the Great Tribulation are events that have not yet taken place, that are revealed in Rev.11:1-2.

    The source for it is posted at the bottpm opf the article!


    Quasar92
     
  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +5,013
    Christian
    Married
    The time of "Jacob's trouble" was during the captivity in Babylon, if taken in historical context.



    Jer 30:1  The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 

    Jer 30:2  Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book. 

    Jer 30:3  For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. 

    Jer 30:4  And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
     
    Jer 30:5  For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
     
    Jer 30:6  Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? 

    Jer 30:7  Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. 

    Jer 30:8  For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: 

    Jer 30:9  But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. 

    Jer 30:10  Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

    . 

    .
     
  12. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,418
    Non-Denom
    Jacob's trouble was fulfilled in Jeremiah's day.


    Prophecy:

    Jeremiah 30:5
    For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.

    Fulfillments:

    Jeremiah 8:16
    The snorting of his horses was heard from Dan: the whole land trembled at the sound of the neighing of his strong ones; for they are come, and have devoured the land, and all that is in it; the city, and those that dwell therein.

    Jeremiah 6:25
    Go not forth into the field, nor walk by the way; for the sword of the enemy and fear is on every side.

    Jeremiah 12:12
    The spoilers are come upon all high places through the wilderness: for the sword of the Lord shall devour from the one end of the land even to the other end of the land: no flesh shall have peace.

    Jeremiah 16:5
    For thus saith the Lord, Enter not into the house of mourning, neither go to lament nor bemoan them: for I have taken away my peace from this people, saith the Lord, even lovingkindness and mercies.


    Prophecy:

    Jeremiah 30:6
    Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

    Fulfillments:

    Jeremiah 4:31
    For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

    Jeremiah 6:24
    We have heard the fame thereof: our hands wax feeble: anguish hath taken hold of us, and pain, as of a woman in travail.


    Prophecies:

    Jeremiah 30:7
    Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

    Jeremiah 30:10
    But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.

    Fulfillments:

    Jeremiah 11:12
    Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble.

    Jeremiah 14:8
    O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night?

    Jeremiah 29:10
    For thus saith the Lord, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.

    Jeremiah 46:27
    But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.


    The great tribulation of Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the 70 AD time frame, toward the end of the generation following Christ's first coming.

    There is no relationship between Jacob's trouble and the great tribulation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2017
  13. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,931
    Christian
    Single

    As has been posted a number of times before for you, Jacob's trouble is yet to take place. The views you hold to in the above is a complete misinterpretation of the prophetic Scriptures. Review the following from another source:


    What is the time of Jacob’s trouble?

    The phrase "the time of Jacob's trouble" is a quote from Jeremiah 30:7 which says, "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it" (KJV).

    In the previous verses of Jeremiah 30, we find that the Lord is speaking to Jeremiah the prophet about Judah and Israel (30:3-4). In verse 3, the Lord promises that one day in the future, He will bring both Judah and Israel back to the land that He had promised their forefathers. Verse 5 describes a time of great fear and trembling. Verse 6 describes this time in a way that pictures men going through the pains of childbirth, again indicating a time of agony. But there is hope for Judah and Israel, for though this is called "the time of Jacob's distress" (NASB), the Lord promises He will save Jacob (referring to Judah and Israel) out of this time of great trouble (verse 7).

    In Jeremiah 30:10-11 the Lord says, “‘I will surely save you out of a distant place, your descendants from the land of their exile. Jacob will again have peace and security, and no one will make him afraid. I am with you and will save you,’ declares the LORD.”

    Also, the Lord says He will destroy the nations who held Judah and Israel in captivity, and He will never allow Jacob to be completely destroyed. However, it should be noted that the Lord describes this as a time of discipline for His people. He says of Jacob, “Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished.”

    Jeremiah 30:7 says, "That day is great, so that none is like it.” The only time period that fits this description is the period of the Tribulation. This time is unparalleled in history.

    Jesus described the Tribulation using some of the same imagery as Jeremiah. In Matthew 24:6-8, He stated that the appearance of false christs, wars and rumors of wars, famines, and earthquakes are "the beginning of birth pains."

    Paul, too, described the Tribulation as birth pains. First Thessalonians 5:3 says, "While people are saying, ‘Peace and safety,’ destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape." This event follows the Rapture and the removal of the Church, in 4:13-18. In 5:9, Paul reemphasizes the absence of the Church from this time period by saying, "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." The wrath spoken of here is God's judgment on the unbelieving world and His discipline of Israel during the Tribulation.

    These “birth pains” are described in detail in Revelation 6-12 Part of the purpose of the Tribulation is to bring Israel back to the Lord.

    For those who have received Christ as Savior from sin, the time of Jacob's trouble is something for which we should praise the Lord, for it demonstrates that God keeps His promises. He has promised us eternal life through Christ our Lord, and He has promised land, seed, and blessing to Abraham and his physical descendants. However, before He fulfills those promises, He will lovingly but firmly discipline the nation of Israel so that they return to Him.

    Recommended Resource: Understanding End Times Prophecy by Paul Benware

    Source: gotquestions.org


    Quasar92
     
  14. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

    +28,467
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    I would say it is a dual prophecy.
    The God ordained destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman army in 70ad is a mirror image of the Jews being taken captive by the Babylonians.
    And God kept His promise, as the Jews are now back in their land and Jerusalem.............

    Neh 7:6
    These[fn] are the people of the province who came back from the captivity, of those who had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away, and who returned to Jerusalem and Judah, everyone to his city.

    John 11:48 "If-ever we may be be letting Him thus, all shall be believing in Him.
    And shall be coming the Romans and they shall be taking away of Us and the Place and the Nation
    [Reve 6:6/14:8]

    Note these 2 verses telling about captivity:

    Luke 21:24
    And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
    And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.

    [Reve 11:2/13:10]

    Reve 11:2
    and the court/fold without the Sanctuary, be Casting Out! out-side and thou mayest not be measuring her.
    That it was given to the nations and the holy City they shall be trampling forty and two months;


    Reve 13:10
    If any to-captivity into captivity is going away. If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
    Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.

    [Luke 21:24]

    Now read the account of Josphus and the captivity of the Jews after the final destruction of Jerusalem:

    The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

    ........The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ;................

    Before their final demolition, however, Titus took, a. survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?".............

    Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, .................Not less than two thousand laid violent hands upon themselves. Of the captives the whole was about Ninety Seven thousand.
     
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +5,013
    Christian
    Married
    The kingdom would be taken from those who reject the chief cornerstone.

    Mat 21:37  But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 
    Mat 21:38  But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 
    Mat 21:39  And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 
    Mat 21:40  When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 
    Mat 21:41  They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 
    Mat 21:42  Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 
    Mat 21:43  Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 



    It would be given to the nation that accepts the cornerstone.

    1Pe 2:4  To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 
    1Pe 2:5  Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 
    1Pe 2:6  Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 
    1Pe 2:7  Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 
    1Pe 2:8  And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 
    1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 
    1Pe 2:10  Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 



    Those who reject the Son, have rejected the Father.

    Jn 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 
    1Jn 2:23  Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 




    .
     
  16. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,931
    Christian
    Single

    THE TIME OF JACOB'S TROUBLE:

    The “time of Jacob’s trouble” is defined as an unparalleled time in all of history. It is also focused on a particular linage of people. In the following three portions of scripture, notice the distinction of the unparalleled nature of this time in history in blue. Then also notice the green italics repeating a common theme of salvation from this time. In reading this, notice who the subject is in all three cases. [Not posted here. Go to source at the bottom of the page and click on it for access.]

    Jeremiah 30:4-7
    And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
    There is no other time like this. Therefore, any other place in scripture claiming this same thing must be talking about the same time.

    Daniel 12:1
    And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    Matthew 24:15-22
    When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
    When shall be great tribulation? “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place...” When does that take place?

    Daniel 9:27
    And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
    If this covenant week is the 70th week of Daniel, then according to this, the midst of the week would start the time of Jacob’s trouble from which he [Israel] is saved out of. The time of Jacob’s trouble couldn’t then be equivalent to the 70th week of Daniel.

    If the covenant with many is not the 70th week of Daniel, then we at the very least know the abomination of desolation is the start of this unparalleled time and that from that point, there is only 3½ years (42 months) of Satan’s rule and persecution.

    Revelation 13:5
    And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

    Revelation 19:19,20
    And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    They’re thrown in the lake of fire upon Christ’s return in glory. Therefore, this time could only last 3½ years since it is the dragon that started the great tribulation when he went after Israel through the beast to whom he gave his power. Revelation 12:13-17

    Islam and Jacob’s Trouble
    Sahih Muslim 41:6985, Sahih Bukhari 4:56:791
    The last hour (judgement day) would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad tree would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.
    An interesting possibility came to mind when I first heard this Hadith. I do believe that radical Islam will play an important part in the last days New World Order of the beast. With Islam spreading throughout the West and things like beheadings being the punishment in the beast’s kingdom, it’s hard to dismiss some kind of role. In addition I believe Islam may be directly tied to the false prophet of Revelation 13 and we know the surrounding Muslim nations hate Israel.

    Part of the time of Jacob’s trouble is this holocaust of greater proportions where 2/3 of the Jews will be killed. I believe this will be the time just after the abomination of desolation, and the reason Yeshua warned those in Judea to flee to the mountains. I can imagine the religious fervor of those who believe their prophecy is coming to pass as the signs and lying wonders bring this Hadith to life during this time of great bloodshed in Judea.

    The Events Surrounding the Time of Jacob’s Trouble
    The day of the Lord begins after the sixth seal. Joel 2:31 This passage doesn’t give us a time of how long after the sixth seal the day of the Lord comes, but because we know the day of the Lord is God’s wrath, and it comes suddenly and unexpectedly, and the people at the sixth seal recognize God’s coming wrath, and the seventh seal is only ½ hour long, I believe the day of the Lord (God’s wrath) comes with the seven trumpets which aren’t handed out until all seals have been broken. Revelation 8:1-2

    The sixth seal/seventh seal/day of the Lord sequence occurs within the same day most likely and is about 30 days after the abomination of desolation. Before God’s wrath comes the 144,000 are sealed and we see the multitudes from all nations, tongues, etc standing before the throne and before the Lamb. Revelation 7

    That time at the abomination of desolation for <30 days is the time of Jacob’s trouble. This is the time they are saved out of and the flesh that is saved is focused on the flesh who is being attacked at that moment, Israel. Revelation 12:13-16 So here is the order of events as I’ve read in scripture. Please hold yourself to Acts 17:11 and don’t take my word for it.

    • Michael stands up and stops restraining the revealing of the man of sin. Daniel 12:1 | 2 Thessalonians 2
    • Abomination of desolation (Unparalleled trouble and the start of Daniel 12:11’s 1290 days)
    • Time of Jacob’s trouble (<30 days)
      • The antichrist goes after all the Jews in Judea. (2/3 are killed)
      • 1/3 of Israel is taken to the wilderness and protected from the dragon (Revelation 12:14 - 1260 days)
      • Around the same time as Israel is taken to the wilderness, the bride of Christ is caught away. We don’t know the day or hour of this, except that it is before God’s wrath comes. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 places it after the abomination of desolation)
    • The signs of the sixth seal take place after Israel is in the wilderness and the bride is caught away from the earth. This is “immediately after the tribulation” of Matthew 24:15-28, the time of Jacob’s trouble. (The great tribulation continues on for the full 3 ½ years that the beast has his power. Daniel 7:25 However, the time of Jacob’s trouble is specifically what Matthew 24:15-28 is focused on as found mirrored in the unparalleled time of Daniel 12:1 and Jeremiah 30:4-7. Therefore, Matthew 24:29, which gives us the timing of the sixth seal, is immediately after the time of Jacob’s trouble, which is cut short to save the remnant of Israel.)
    • ½ hour after the signs, the seventh seal is broken and the seven trumpets are handed out. Revelation 8:1-2
    • The first trumpet is sounded, marking the beginning of God’s wrath and the day of the Lord. For the next almost 3 ½ years, the seven trumpets and seven thunders, and seven bowls will be poured out on the children of disobedience.
    • Also during this time, the antichrist moves his wrath against God’s people world-wide and goes after Israel’s remnant who wasn’t in Judea as well as the Christians that hold the testimony of Christ. Revelation 12:17
    • In heaven, the bride of Christ will be married (two become one) with Christ at the marriage of the Lamb. Revelation 19:7,8 We then follow Christ from heaven upon white horses when He returns in glory to take the kingdoms. Revelation 19:11-14

    Source: The Time of Jacob's Trouble


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2017
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +5,013
    Christian
    Married
    This is another of those posts which rips out of its context the historical fulfillment of past events in an attempt to make modern Dispensational Theology work.


    Nobody can deny that the Book of Jeremiah was written during the time that Israel was going into and was in captivity in Babylon. It was a tremendous time of trouble for that nation. It is a historical fact. Daniel knew the captivity was about to end during his time, based on the words of Jeremiah. The captivity did end about 70 years after it started, just as Jeremiah had predicted.

    Nobody can deny there was a period of about 7 years when the Gospel was taken to Daniel's people before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles, based on Matthew 10:5-7 and Galatians 1:14-18. It is a historical fact. This was the 70th week of Daniel, as confirmed by the 1599 Geneva Bible.

    Nobody can deny that the same warning to flee from Jerusalem to the mountains is found in Matthew 24:16 and Luke 21:21. Therefore the verse before each of those verses must be related.
    We know that the first Abomination of Desolation occurred during 167 BC, when Antiochus Epiphanes had a pig slaughtered on the altar of the Jewish temple, he also killed thousands of Jews in Jerusalem and he stopped the temple sacrifices. Based on Luke 21:20-24, we know something similar happened during 70 AD. The Jews of Jesus time celebrated Hanukkah each year, because a reference is found in John 10:22. Josephus confirms in his writings that the Jews of his time understood that Antiochus had fulfilled the prophecy in Daniel, exactly as predicted 408 years after Daniel made the prediction.



    From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

    "6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

    7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "



    In Matthew 24:15 Jesus was telling his Jewish audience that something similar to 167 BC would happen again during 70 AD. Luke spelled it out for his more Gentile audience in Luke 21:20, that it would occur when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies.
    During 66 AD Roman forces under the command of Cestius Gallus surrounded the city and then left for some unknown reason. The Jews killed thousands of Roman soldiers during the retreat. The Romans would return a few years later to destroy the city during 70 AD.
    The early Christians heeded the warning of Christ in Matthew 25:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 and fled from the city before the final siege of 70 AD. This is also a historical fact.



    The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8. Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant of Christ, modern Dispensational Theology's Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart. After that point, ripping past events out of their historical context is no longer necessary.

    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
  18. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

    +2,585
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    "Antiochus IV (175-164 BC), was the 8th ruler of the Seleucid empire. He gave himself the surname "Epiphanes" which means "the visible god" (that he and Jupiter were identical). He acted as though he really were Jupiter and the people called him "Epimanes" meaning "the madman". He was violently bitter against the Jews, and was determined to exterminate them and their religion. He devastated Jerusalem in 168 BC, defiled the Temple, offered a pig on its altar, erected an altar to Jupiter, prohibited Temple worship, forbade circumcision on pain of death, sold thousands of Jewish families into slavery, destroyed all copies of Scripture that could be found, and slaughtered everyone discovered in possession of such copies, and resorted to every conceivable torture to force Jews to renounce their religion. This led to the Maccabaean revolt, one of the most heroic feats in history. The Antiochus bust discovery is important in the study of Biblical archaeology, it reveals an image of the man who was mentioned in the Book of Daniel.

    Antiochus IV usurped the throne of his brother Seleucus IV who died. Antiochus was determined to hellenize Israel and make them a people who were worthy of bordering Egypt, he needed a loyal hellenized population there. The Jews were quickly becoming more Greek than any other time in history. A group of Jews came to Antiochus with a plan. They proposed that the high priest Onias III should be removed and his hellenized brother Jason should take his place. They should set up a Greek Constitution and coin Greek money.

    The plan was followed and all the Jews were outraged. It was the first time since the Babylonian Captivity that a non-Jewish government had interfered with the priesthood (treating the sacred office as though it were nothing other than a governmental office). But the worst was yet to come. Now the hellenizers had full control of the government in Jerusalem and they began to build gymnasiums within the city and encouraged the young to spent all their time there. The young priests engaged in sports, Jerusalem was filled with Greek styles, Greek clothes, Greek names, Greek language and worst of all, Greek religion and Greek morals.

    The most radical hellenizers felt that things were not moving fast enough so they convinced Antiochus to remove Jason and replace him with Menelaus who was not even a member of the priestly family. Menelaus had no sympathy for the Jewish traditions whatsoever and was only concerned about his own power. The Temple treasury did not contain enough money to pay Antiochus what he had promised so he sold some of the holy vessels of the Temple to raise the money he needed. It was now the goal that Judaism was to be destroyed. In the mind of Antiochus to be un-hellenized was stiff-necked nonsense. If Judaism stood in the way then Judaism was to be destroyed so he gave the orders.

    The Syrian army marched into Jerusalem and many of the people were killed and others escaped to the hills. Only the known Hellenists were allowed to remain. Orders were given: NO Sabbath, NO Holy Days, and NO Circumcision. A Statue of Zeus/Antiochus was placed in the Temple above the altar. The most detestable animals (the pig) were brought and sacrificed on the altar. An abominable act was perpetrated on Kislev 25, 168 BC according to the Book of Maccabees that "left the Jewish people desolate." (They call this the Abomination of Desolation in Daniel) but Jesus taught that this was a preliminary occurrence of a greater fulfillment coming in the last days, during the seventieth week of Daniel."

    Source

    There is a difference between desolate, and desecrate.

    Facts is, this occurrence was during the inter-testimental period. That is also why we do not accept the Book of Maccabees.

    And while I have Josephus' works, it is also a recorded fact that he got some of his history "second-hand".

    Another reason I disagree is why would Jesus "prophesy" about an event "in the future" (cf. Mt 24:15-16; Mk.13:14) that happened in the past, as you say? (cf. 167 BC)

    I do agree that Antiochus did "defile" and "desecrate" the temple, but he did not render it "desolate"

    Josephus records:

    "Now Antiochus was not satisfied either with his unexpected taking the city, or with its pillage, or with the great slaughter he had made there; but being overcome with his violent passions, and remembering what he had suffered during the siege, he compelled the Jews to dissolve the laws of their country, and to keep their infants uncircumcised, and to sacrifice swine's flesh upon the altar; against which they all opposed themselves, and the most approved among them were put to death. Bacchides also, who was sent to keep the fortresses, having these wicked commands, joined to his own natural barbarity, indulged all sorts of the extremest wickedness, and tormented the worthiest of the inhabitants, man by man, and threatened their city every day with open destruction, till at length he provoked the poor sufferers by the extremity of his wicked doings to avenge themselves."

    Source

    So "the abomination of desolation" cannot be Antiochus Epiphanes.

    In fact, after the Maccabean Revolt, the temple, still standing, was re-dedicated. The Law and the sacrifices continued until AD 70.

    We also know from Josephus, that the siege of Jerusalem lasted from AD 66 to AD 73. Or 8 years.

    But, Josephus also records, as does history, that Cestus was recalled in AD 69. Titus did not lay siege to Jerusalem until AD 70. AD 66 to 69, 3 years, a year between Cestus and Titus, AD 69-70, AD 70 until AD 73 when Masada fell.

    A fact also recorded is during the one year between Cestus and Titus, some escaped to Petra. (cf. Eusebius Eccl. history)

    In fact, Jerusalem was made completely desolate until AD 73.

    Three Years After the War

    We now come to the final appraisal of the complete desolation of Jerusalem. Note what Eleazar, the final Jewish commander at Masada, related three years after the war was finished at Jerusalem. He gives an eyewitness account of how the Romans preserved Fort Antonia (the Haram) among the ruins. What Eleazar said to the 960 Jewish people (who were to commit suicide rather than fall into the hands of General Silva who was on the verge of capturing the Fortress of Masada) is very important in regard to our present inquiry. This final Jewish commander lamented over the sad state of affairs that everyone could witness at this twilight period of the conflict after the main war with the Romans was over.

    Jerusalem was to Eleazar a disastrous spectacle of utter ruin. There was only one thing that remained of the former Jerusalem that Eleazar could single out as still standing. This was the Camp of the Romans that Titus permitted to remain as a monument of humiliation over the Mother City of the Jews. Eleazar acknowledged that this military encampment had been in Jerusalem before the war, and that Titus let it continue after the war. The retention of this single Camp of the Romans, according to Eleazar, was a symbol of the victory that Rome had achieved over the Jewish people. His words are recorded in War VII.8,7.

    So while the temple and the city were destroyed, Fort Antonia remained. So three years after the war, Jerusalem was not yet completely desolate.

    I would not rely on Antiquities of the Jews completely.

    And there is this:

    "Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
    (15) The abomination of desolation.—The words, as they stand in Daniel 12:11, seem to refer to the desecration of the sanctuary by the mad attempt of Antiochus Epiphanes to stop the “daily sacrifice,” and to substitute an idolatrous worship in its place (2 Maccabees 6:1-9). What analogous desecration our Lord’s words point to, is a question that has received very different answers. We may at once narrow the range of choice by remembering (1) that it is before the destruction of the Temple, and therefore cannot be the presence of the plundering troops, or of the eagles of the legions in it; (2) that the “abomination” stands in the “Holy Place,” and therefore it cannot be identified with the appearance of the Roman eagles in the lines of the besieging legions under Cestius, A.D. 68. The answer is probably to be found in the faction-fights, the murders and outrages, the profane consecration of usurping priests, which the Jewish historian describes so fully (Jos. Wars, iv. 6, §§ 6-8). The Zealots had got possession of the Temple at an early stage in the siege, and profaned it by these and other like outrages; they made the Holy Place (in the very words of the historian) “a garrison and stronghold” of their tyrannous and lawless rule; while the better priests looked on from afar and wept tears of horror. The mysterious prediction of 2Thessalonians 2:4 may point, in the first instance, to some kindred “abomination.”

    Source

    But what do I know, I'm the CF idiot.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +5,013
    Christian
    Married

    I would never imply the above.

    What is your opinion of the relationship between Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-24?

    .
     
  20. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,931
    Christian
    Single

    The view of specific events as described by two different men.


    Quasar92
     
Loading...