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Jacob’s Trouble and the Great Tribulation

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Sep 15, 2017.

  1. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Are they both recording the words of Christ and are they both being inspired by the same Holy Spirit?

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  2. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The OP together with posts #25, 33 and 36 all describe by the Scriptures, that Jacob's trouble pertains to the Great Tribulation, that HAS NOT taken place yet. It is a parallel to Dan.9:27, which is amplified by Jesus in His Olivet Discourse, in Mt.24; Mk.13 and in Lk.21, in addition to Rev.6; ALL OF WHICH REFUTE your above post!

    Jacob's trouble, the Great Tribulation, will take place over a 3.5 year period of time, the last half of the 70th week of Dan.9:27, when Israel will lose 2/3 of the population it had when Jacobs trouble/the Great Tribulation begins!

    Show me by the Scriptures where Israel lost 2/3 of its population during the 70 years they were exiled into Babylon and Persia, rather than gaining in population.

    The views you hold to is the epitome of eisegesis in the study of interpreting eschatology as history!


    Quasar92
     
  3. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Do you think the Babylonians took all of the Israelites to Babylon?

    Do you think they put the old men and women and small children in a wagon and hauled them safely to Babylon?

    Or was it more like the "Trail of Tears", when the Cherokee were forced to leave their homes?

    How many of those Native Americans died on the trip?

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  4. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When are you going to stop kidding yourself, in attempting to make the exile of Israel to Babylon/Persia for 70 years come anywhere close to the 3.5 years of Jacob's trouble, described in the seven seals, the seven trumpet and the seven bowl judgments described in Rev.6 through 16.

    Your views have already been thoroughly refuted Scripturally, in the OP, posts #25, 33 and 36. It is long past your conceding and moving on!


    Quasar92
     
  5. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jacob's trouble was fulfilled in Jeremiah's day.


    Prophecy:

    Jeremiah 30:5
    For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.

    Fulfillments:

    Jeremiah 8:16
    The snorting of his horses was heard from Dan: the whole land trembled at the sound of the neighing of his strong ones; for they are come, and have devoured the land, and all that is in it; the city, and those that dwell therein.

    Jeremiah 6:25
    Go not forth into the field, nor walk by the way; for the sword of the enemy and fear is on every side.

    Jeremiah 12:12
    The spoilers are come upon all high places through the wilderness: for the sword of the Lord shall devour from the one end of the land even to the other end of the land: no flesh shall have peace.

    Jeremiah 16:5
    For thus saith the Lord, Enter not into the house of mourning, neither go to lament nor bemoan them: for I have taken away my peace from this people, saith the Lord, even lovingkindness and mercies.


    Prophecy:

    Jeremiah 30:6
    Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

    Fulfillments:

    Jeremiah 4:31
    For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

    Jeremiah 6:24
    We have heard the fame thereof: our hands wax feeble: anguish hath taken hold of us, and pain, as of a woman in travail.


    Prophecies:

    Jeremiah 30:7
    Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

    Jeremiah 30:10
    But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.

    Fulfillments:

    Jeremiah 11:12
    Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble.

    Jeremiah 14:8
    O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night?

    Jeremiah 29:10
    For thus saith the Lord, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.

    Jeremiah 46:27
    But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.


    There is no relationship between Jacob's trouble of the Babylonian captivity, and the great tribulation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
  6. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Post #44 pertains to you as well, refuting you in all aspects of your claim Jacob's trouble took place in Jeremiah's time. As all of those posts clearly reveal, Jacob's trouble takes place concurrently with the Great Tribulation, which it is, yet to occur.


    Quasar92
     
  7. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The correlations in Jeremiah between prophecies and fulfillments have been demonstrated using the actual words and expressions for validation. What similar demonstrations can you provide?
     
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    It is the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled word-for-word by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8 which has refuted those who rip verses out of their historical context to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work, that has done the refuting on this forum.

    God's Word is like a sharp two-edged sword which cuts John Nelson Darby's doctrine to pieces, as clearly seen in the video below.


    Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology
    Pastor John Otis


     
  9. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As you were told before, my posts #25, 33, 36 together with the OP all refute you.


    Quasar92
     
  10. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The new covenant was fulfilled by Jesus in His first advent BY ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVED/RECEIVED HIM AS LORD. Consisting of both Jew and Gentile alike, His body, the Church, as recorded in 1 Cor.12:12=13.

    As you have been shown by the Scriptures time after time, THE CHURCH IS NOT ISRAEL! Israel HAS NOT accepted Jesus as their Messiah, which constitutes their rejection of the new covenant promised them in Jeremiah.
    Which means, the new covenant, prophecied by Jeremiah, HAS NOT BEEN FULFILLED and will not be fulfilled by Israel's acceptance of it atl the SECOND COMING of Christ, as recorded in Zech.12:10.


    Quasar92
     
  11. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Actually, Jerusalem doesn't belong to anyone but God. Just like the land promised to Abraham. It all belongs to God Himself. He has allowed them to live on that land, booted them off when they were in disobedience, brought them back, etc. But it is His land and His city irregardless of what anyone has to say about it.
     
  12. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Especially so when Jeremiah 30 is clearly stating this regarding a time where foreigners will no longer enslave Israel and David their King (Messiah, son of David) will rule over them. Context is everything. It is really torturing the text by some to say that it applies to the Babylonian captivity.
     
  13. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Ahh, yet another poster with "Darby on the brain". Anyone who even does rudimentary research on this knows that Darby hardly held the copyright to that theology. It goes way back to the early days of the church with documented proof. There is ample evidence that many were teaching dispensational ideas long before Darby. Sir Isaac Newton is one who did a full century before Darby came on the scene.

    And who cares? Why do so many feel threatened by pre-trib, dispensational theology? In the vein of William Shakespeare, "ye doest protest too much, me thinks". Seems to me that dispensational theology seems to really cut a nerve with these folks. If they are secure in their beliefs, then it should matter not to them. After all, it isn't what justifies us before God.

    Remember, Yeshua did not say "they will know you by your eschatological position". He said they would know us by our love for one another. And He prayed to the Father that we would be as one as He and the Father are one. Is it any wonder that so many in the world want nothing to do with "those darn Christians" when they see the church acting just like the world, nit picking and food fighting over doctrinal stuff that is not the key to being made righteous before God?
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
    Pastor Tim Warner
    http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

    Pretribulationist Revisionism
    (Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
    Pastor Tim Warner
    http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf





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  15. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The origin of the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

    Taught by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, directly from the Bible!

    The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - a deeper walk...


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
  16. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Posting references of write ups by an author that has not really done his research is not helping the case. Not one mention of Ephraim of Nisbus, Ireaneus, or many others down thru time. It is blatantly obvious the bias on this from the author. The video link is just diatribe with no objective support. Shotgun "man on the street" comments of people not being able to "prove" in scripture a pre-trib position is hardly honest theological discussion. The video reeks of conspiracy theory. It is just a hatchet job meant to demean folks who ascribe to a pre-trib, dispensational position. The approach alone makes it entirely unworthy of further consideration of it.

    And those that refute the idea have little knowledge of the OT passages that discuss the end times events. All the Bereans had was the OT when Paul commended them for searching the scriptures to see if what he taught them was true. There is ample verses that show in the OT that a removal of the righteous before the end times events known as the time of Jacob's trouble and that great day that there is nothing like it. Isaiah, Zephaniah, Jeremiah, and the Psalms all address it.

    It is truly a pity that so many in the church really don't study their scripture. if they put half the time is serious research of the OT as they do into refuting others, they would be better off.

    Just a simple reading of Revelation 4 puts this to rest. The elders are Kings and Priests. They are robed in white and have crowns. We are called a royal priesthood by Peter in his first letter. These are crowned, which means the rewards have already been handed out. And all of this is before the 1st seal is cracked open by Yeshua.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
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  17. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We do owe much to Newton for his contributions in the associated scientific disciplines. But you probably don't want to be citing him as any doctrinal authority. From Wikipedia:
    "According to most scholars, Newton was Arian, not holding to Trinitarianism.[9][21][22] 'In Newton's eyes, worshipping Christ as God was idolatry, to him the fundamental sin'.[23] As well as being antitrinitarian, Newton allegedly rejected the orthodox doctrines of the immortal soul,[9] a personal devil and literal demons.[9] Although he was not a Socinian he shared many similar beliefs with them.[9] A manuscript he sent to John Locke in which he disputed the existence of the Trinity was never published."
     
  18. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Wiki is not necessarily the final authority on knowledge or historical events. I have quite a few of Newton's commentaries and have read them. Try it sometime instead of relying on others to do your homework.
     
  19. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What evidence do you have that contradicts that of Wikipedia?
     
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled word-for-word by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Christ's Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8 cannot be reconciled with the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology.



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