It's been really quiet poll

[Andrewn]

We Unitarian Christians tend to see Jesus as the "savior" in that he is the way shower to God and true salvation from sin. I personally believe he was the messiah in the spiritual sense that he was anointed by God at his baptism. Through his teachings and example we can be free from Sin.

It seems that you subscribe to the moral influence theory of atonement. This is fine when combined with other theories. By itself, it's rather meaningless.

Salvation in Christianity - Wikipedia

I believe he was spiritually resurrected from the dead, but not physically. I believe his followers experienced a spiritual event that made them all believe he was not truly gone.

It is not possible to be considered a Christian without belief in Christ's physical resurrection.

And I am a non-adorantist and believe that all prayer should be directed to God the Father. I still believe it is fine to venerate Jesus just as you would venerate someone you admire greatly like one of the Saints (Although he was greater than all the Saints.), but the highest worship and praise is reserved for God.

Jesus didn't really say to pray to him but only to pray in his name.

 

[Andrewn]

To accept intelligent design is to accept the designer is grossly incompetent. Natural selection, artificial selection, sexual selection, mutation etc, are sufficient to explain the diversity of life on earth without the need for a designer.

I disagree with this but, of course, you're not alone in believing it.

Intelligent design is really just repackaged Creationism; it contributes nothing to science.

I agree.

That gets very deep, very fast. It depends on your qualifications for being benevolent. How can a god be benevolent while not intervening in the worlds' atrocities? If a god is omni powerful, then how could that god be anything but malevolent if it dictates those atrocities? But if a god does have to constantly intervene to be benevolent , how much of our free will do we lose?

A loving God would respect people's free will, otherwise He would be a rapist.

I suppose it's most accurate to say that I believe my deities would have to be mostly indifferent. They are not all powerful, do not cause such atrocities, and do not punish anyone for non-belief, nor is there any guaranteed reward for believing. They inspire.

It's good that they inspire you to care for the environment, the animals, birds, etc. Right?

 

[Andrewn]

The practices can be. Anything meditative I think can be used in all paths. The teachings of zen are probably not. Zen will say there is a god and there isn't a god and it doesn't matter if there is or isn't. Obviously not an orthodox Christian mindset. Although it's a mindset I still hold.

Few years ago, I read a whole book about Zen. It's like you say, anything and its opposite is possible. It's kind of like the Gospel of Thomas of Naga Hammadi.

 

[awitch]

It's good that they inspire you to care for the environment, the animals, birds, etc. Right?

Sure, but the detrimental effects of human activity on the world is more than enough to inspire me to care.
They inspire my creative endeavors and pursuits of knowledge, too.

 

[dlamberth]

You wrote, "I'd say the every blade of grass, every leaf, every tree and worm, every critter and being is the Word of God." Did you mean this in a pantheistic way?

I'm a pretty hard Panentheist. That's not the same as a Pantheist.

If you believe people have a spark of divinity, belief in the afterlife would make sense.

Having a spark of divinity is something we have as Human Beings. That has nothing to do with afterlife. Seeing the Divine in others and treating them with the sacredness that they are also has nothing to do with afterlife. But it is an aspect of having God as one's reality, right now, today in this life where the Divine is needed the most. The question I hold out in front of me goes like this: What does it mean to be a more fully human, Human Being? If asked, I'd say that's the main teaching of Jesus. And the answer Jesus and every other major spiritual teacher gave is Love, empathy and service to those in need.

 

[Starcomet]

It seems that you subscribe to the moral influence theory of atonement. This is fine when combined with other theories. By itself, it's rather meaningless.

Salvation in Christianity - Wikipedia

Yes I do subscribe to the moral influence theory of atonement.

It is not possible to be considered a Christian without belief in Christ's physical resurrection.

Most would argue this, but it could be argue that a spiritual resurrection does not hinder the message or his life.

Jesus didn't really say to pray to him but only to pray in his name.

Yes this is true, but many Christians do pray to him anyway.

 

[dlamberth]

This is very sad. God made people with a free will and to persecute them for expressing their freedom can only be satanic.

Free will yes. But what is the church preaching? That's the question that Marguerite Porete was asking. That's the question I look towards. What do I want to be a part of? Is Love being preached? I found myself going where it is.

 

[Andrewn]

They inspire my creative endeavors and pursuits of knowledge, too.

Would you give examples?

 

[awitch]

Would you give examples?

So I'm terrible at writing but I will sometimes write stories and get ideas when thinking about them.

I've been trying to get some decent pictures of the birds and don't particularly like the idea of getting up at 6 am on a weekend in the middle of winter to drive 2 hours to a particular beach and then stand in the freezing weather on the chance that the bird I want to see might be there. But on more than one occasion, I felt a calling to do so. And I went. And the birds were there.

 

[Andrewn]

I'm a pretty hard Panentheist.

I used to be a fan of panentheism but haven't given it much consideration in recent years.

The question I hold out in front of me goes like this: What does it mean to be a more fully human, Human Being? If asked, I'd say that's the main teaching of Jesus. And the answer Jesus and every other major spiritual teacher gave is Love, empathy and service to those in need.

This is very true but probably not the whole truth.

 

[Andrewn]

Most would argue this, but it could be argue that a spiritual resurrection does not hinder the message or his life.

The problems with a "spiritual resurrection" is that 1) It contradicts what the NT says about the body being absent; and 2) It denies that our bodies will be resurrected in a similar manner to Jesus'.

I'm not a big fan of satisfaction theory. But I believe Christ's atonement was bigger than mere moral influence. There are other explanations / theories mentioned in the Wikipedia article and some of them are quite plausible.

 

[Starcomet]

The problems with a "spiritual resurrection" is that 1) It contradicts what the NT says about the body being absent; and 2) It denies that our bodies will be resurrected in a similar manner to Jesus'.

Yes, but anything could have happened to the body. From a scholarly standpoint, it is hard to say if the account of the body being gone is factual or tradition.

 

[Andrewn]

So I'm terrible at writing but I will sometimes write stories and get ideas when thinking about them.

I've been trying to get some decent pictures of the birds and don't particularly like the idea of getting up at 6 am on a weekend in the middle of winter to drive 2 hours to a particular beach and then stand in the freezing weather on the chance that the bird I want to see might be there. But on more than one occasion, I felt a calling to do so. And I went. And the birds were there.

This is truly inspiring.

 

[Zoness]

What does it symbolize to you?

It symbolizes a couple of things; my early roots in the religion which were Wiccan, many facets and modes of life represented by the points and the continuous unity of substance represented by the circle enclosing the star.

Is it Khnum or one of the Celtic deities? What do you consider the deities to be?

Oh, hey you know Khnum! Yes indeed, much of the time although I have had feelings associated with other deities that have had horns such as Faunus or Amun as well. It's kind of not a real distinct line and that's generally been the norm for my experience.

Your second question is big but often contentious and I have been known to waver on it; which impacts my next answer too. My belief is that deities are both manifestations of consciousness rendered by humanity and the purest representation of different facets of life. I am undecided about their exact nature and free agency as I don't have enough information to know for sure that they exist independently. The human person is fundamental in this existence. Stricter polytheists would affirm positively that they have independent agency whereas I am muddier on the question.

What's the purpose of these rituals. In the Bible we read that such rituals are no longer meaningful:

Col 2:14 He destroyed the record of the debt we owed, with its requirements that worked against us. He canceled it by nailing it to the cross. 15 When he disarmed the rulers and authorities, he exposed them to public disgrace by leading them in a triumphal parade. 16 So don’t let anyone judge you about eating or drinking or about a festival, a new moon observance, or sabbaths. 17 These religious practices are only a shadow of what was coming—the body that cast the shadow is Christ.

One might say rituals are part of the gift-giving cycle; wherein one establishes a relationship with divinity by offering simple gifts and then the deity may also reciprocate. Taking my humanity-centric approach, rituals fulfill a key part of mental stimulation and realization. For me personally they are good reasons to stop what I am doing and reflect on subjects at hand, to give thanks for life, to appreciate life and others in my life as well as to reflect on what I can do to make the world a better place both in society as well as physically to the Earth. It's a big part of psychological grounding for me, a reset if you will.

What does the Celtic knot and other objects mean to you?

They symbolize my eclecticism and my desire to draw knowledge and wisdom from many sources; they're kind of a constant reminder of how borders in religion aren't always neat and the same with ideas in general. Many things are a mishmash of many other things. Plus they offer a demarcated spot set aside where I can perform rituals described above.

I find this fascinating. I believe that Buddhist philosophy spread not only eastward to China and Japan but also westward to Alexandria, Athens, and Rome. I believe it affected the so called mystery religions and Stoic philosophy. Is this something you observed in your studies

Documentation notwithstanding, I think it is entirely plausible and the similarities are hard to miss. Far be it from me to be overly reductionist in comparing different philosophies but its compelling for sure.

Without belief in the afterlife, what's the point in worship and rituals and orthpraxy?

The sense of regularity brings order to my mind. In my more polytheistic days I would say the simple answer is to receive good fortune from the gods in life but generally now I think I make my own luck in life, to a degree. Religion seems to be a big part of the human experience and while I am politically secularist I don't see a reason why I cannot personally indulge in ritual, especially since I enjoy it.

While many pagans believe in an afterlife, avoiding hell is an extreme minority position. From a Christian position this might seem pretty unusual since it seems to be a pretty big part of Christianity. Getting the most out of this life seems to be the key.

You're quite well-informed. Are you a philosopher? I haven't read much in philosophy.

If I am, I am an amateur; I started in philosophy to better understand what I believe and why I believe it; that kind of lead me down a rabbit hole where I had to confront and reject some beliefs and it made me re-embrace other beliefs. I will say there's a lot of stuff I don't know though, primary sources can be unbearably dense and the German Idealists bore me to tears.

 

[dlamberth]

I used to be a fan of pantheism but haven't given it much consideration in recent years.

How did pantheism play out for you?

 

[Andrewn]

But what is the church preaching? That's the question that Marguerite Porete was asking. That's the question I look towards. What do I want to be a part of? Is Love being preached? I found myself going where it is.

I read the Wikipedia article about Marguerite Porete and synopsis of her ideas. They're certainly beautiful. The article mentions several Christians mystics who came to be accepted or even considered saints and thus it's not clear why Marguerite was condemned. Christianity is without doubt the religion of love and I don't think this can be said about any religion or philosophy that preceded it. In the NT we read:

1Jo 4:7 Dear friends, let’s love each other, because love is from God, and everyone who loves is born from God and knows God. 8 The person who doesn’t love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how the love of God is revealed to us: God has sent his only Son into the world so that we can live through him. 10 This is love: it is not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son as the sacrifice that deals with our sins. 11 Dear friends, if God loved us this way, we also ought to love each other.

Agape - Wikipedia

How did pantheism play out for you?

Sorry, I meant to type "panentheism" but my laptop tends to "correct" my writing!

It seems that I've forgotten why I used to advocate for "panentheism." At this point, I'm neutral about the idea, haven't thought about it for a long time. Perhaps you can remind me of its advantages.

 

[Andrewn]

Yes, but anything could have happened to the body. From a scholarly standpoint, it is hard to say if the account of the body being gone is factual or tradition.

If one doesn't believe the NT then they follow a different religion. When you have a chance, you may like to read The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel.

 

[Starcomet]

If you have a chance, you may like to read The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel.

I think I read that back in college. I understand the arguments for a physical resurrection and I used to believe in it, but I am no longer convinced.

 

[dlamberth]

Christianity is without doubt the religion of love and I don't think this can be said about any religion or philosophy that preceded it.

I think it has the potential of being the religion of Love. But I also don't believe that it's living up to it's potential. This is exactly the place where I believe Jesus is standing over on the side and Christianity is standing somewhere else and it's only occasionally that they cross paths. And this has everything to do with why I went else where, spiritually speaking.

When I do visit a church, they may talk about Love (a little) , and like you they may even quote scripture, but they rarely actually "preach" Love. I think Marguerite Porete is exactly correct.

It seems that I've forgotten why I used to advocate for "panentheism." At this point, I'm neutral about the idea, haven't thought about it for a long time. Perhaps you can remind me of its advantages.

For me, its really simple. I don't know how to limit God in place, time and expanse, both in the seen and unseen worlds.

 

[Andrewn]

Your second question is big but often contentious and I have been known to waver on it; which impacts my next answer too. My belief is that deities are both manifestations of consciousness rendered by humanity and the purest representation of different facets of life. I am undecided about their exact nature and free agency as I don't have enough information to know for sure that they exist independently. The human person is fundamental in this existence. Stricter polytheists would affirm positively that they have independent agency whereas I am muddier on the question.

Taking my humanity-centric approach, rituals fulfill a key part of mental stimulation and realization. For me personally they are good reasons to stop what I am doing and reflect on subjects at hand, to give thanks for life, to appreciate life and others in my life as well as to reflect on what I can do to make the world a better place both in society as well as physically to the Earth. It's a big part of psychological grounding for me, a reset if you will.

This remind me of Carl Jung's Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious and concepts like the subconscious mind being the gatekeeper of one's comfort zone.

The sense of regularity brings order to my mind. In my more polytheistic days I would say the simple answer is to receive good fortune from the gods in life but generally now I think I make my own luck in life, to a degree. Religion seems to be a big part of the human experience and while I am politically secularist I don't see a reason why I cannot personally indulge in ritual, especially since I enjoy it.

There used to be elaborate rituals in traditional Christianity. Symbols and rituals are more or less absent in modern evangelical Christianity. Did we lose something by discarding rituals? Or did our subconscious evolve and realize that rituals just are not useful?

While many pagans believe in an afterlife, avoiding hell is an extreme minority position. From a Christian position this might seem pretty unusual since it seems to be a pretty big part of Christianity. Getting the most out of this life seems to be the key.

I heard from Pagans that they believed in Summerland and reincarnation. But you don't believe in an afterlife. I think believing in a hell for people like Al Qaeda and ISIS terrorists and identity theft operatives and sex traffickers originates from our archetypal God-given sense of justice.