It's been really quiet poll

[Starcomet]

I hear you. LDS, JW, and Unitarians are not allowed in the Christians Only sections, not even in the Controversial Theology Forum. This is definitely prohibitive. In fact, you're the 1st person self-identified are Unitarians that I met in the CF since joining 9 Mo ago.

Most Christians probably don't know what a Unitarian is. This is probably why they never engage you. I have some understanding of Unitarian doctrine but not enough. Would you plz explain your beliefs?

Thank you for asking! Well there are two/three types of Unitarians: First is the Unitarian Universalist Association or UUA for short. This group grew out of the original Unitarians and Universalist but no longer consider themselves a Christian church/group. They are welcoming to all individuals no matter their religious/spiritual beliefs or lack thereof and believe in secular humanism.

Then you have the Biblical unitarians who do not believe in the trinity or that Jesus was God, but they still believe he was divine and believe in many other traditional Christian Doctrines such as the virgin birth, vicarious atonement, etc. These types of unitarians include your JWs, Mormons, Christiandelphians, Oness Pentecostalist, and others.

Finally, you have the Classical/Strict Unitarians such as me. This group does not believe in the trinity or the divinity of Jesus, but believe he was a human endowed with the wisdom of God and was his prophet, a son of God (spiritually/metaphorically), and to them was the savior. This group rejects many traditional Christian doctrines such as original sin, eternal hell, the virgin birth, vicarious atonement, etc. I have only saw one other person on here who identified as a Unitarian, but I am not certain if they were a UUA individual or like me.

 

[dlamberth]

By becoming Catholic. Realized there really wasn't much new under the sun.

Do you bring any of your Buddhist training into your Christian life?

 

[Andrewn]

I tend not to believe in any afterlife; I consider it wishful thinking. We have enough stuff going on in this life to have to worry about it. I'm a hard polytheist meaning I believe in multiple distinct deities. I don't pretend to know their nature. I just project what feels right and have faith that they meet me half way. I don't believe in a Creator God. I accept Big Bang Theory, abiogenesis, and evolution.

Personally, I don't know how one can be an animal and bird fanatic and not believe in an intelligent Creator and an afterlife.

You must believe your deities have powers, right? Do you believe they're eternal? Are there malevolent deities that would harm you that you need to appease?

Pentacle has one point up and the pentagram has one point down. Some say one is good and one is bad, or one is Wiccan and the other is Satanic. They're just symbols. It's a circle, so does rotating it a few degrees make any meaningful change? I doubt it. Mileage may vary depending on who you ask, but its common for the points to represent the classical elements (earth, fire, air, water) and spirit; representing the whole universe. I've heard others say they represent the five cardinal directions and the self, and others say the five points represent 5 important deities.

I read that old pentacles had a 6-angle star (like star of David). Are you familiar with this?

 

[Andrewn]

I'd say that every Soul is an activity of God that can only be known by the awakening of the Heart. I'd go on to say that it's through Love that the Heart is awakened.

What you're saying is perfectly Christian belief except that I'd say awakening of the "spirit" through trust of God / Christ. But, of course, trust and love in this context are more or less interchangeable.

As this is a Christian form, and using the image of Christ the kind of questions I hold out in front of me might be "What is the Heart of Christ like?" This is something that a person has to put themselves into Christ to know. That's where the mystical experience comes in.

You're probably familiar with the Sacred Heart of Jesus movement in the Catholic Church. The month of June is dedicated to the Scare Coeur. It sounds like a similar idea.

We have a pretty vibrant community with workshops, groups, home meetings, services and service to those in need. There are practices given and yes, I meditate, read and do a lot of inner reflection and I garden. Retreats are part of the program. I'm blessed with a Trappist Monastery and a Buddhist Retreat center near by that I visit often. I try to get in at least a couple week long retreat a year. More often though it's several 3 day retreats during the year.

If I google "sufis" would I be able to find about these communities?

In my younger days I turned as a semazen. There is also what's called Dances of Universal Peace that I attend weekly. This dance is really a kind of moving meditation based on sacred scriptures of the world spiritual traditions. When I began years ago they called these dances "Sufi Dancing". I don't know if that's what you were referring to or if it's the turning.

I had the whirling in mind. But I googled "Dances of Universal Peace" and found some locations that I may be able to get to. Interesting.

What I "see" and "experience" is the revelation of the Divine within every Human Being and even in the fullness of life itSelf. The only Sacred Scripture that I recognize as being directly written by the hand of God is this Creation and Life itself. I'd say the every blade of grass, every leaf, every tree and worm, every critter and being is the Word of God. Everything else has passed through the hands of man.

I agree with you about every blade of grass, every leaf, every tree and worm, every critter and being point to God. The Bible says:

Rom 1:19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

 

[awitch]

Personally, I don't know how one can be an animal and bird fanatic and not believe in an intelligent Creator and an afterlife.

My fascination with birds extends well past feeding and watching. I read ornithology text books for fun and it covers biology, their evolution from theropods, behavior. You start to see the pieces fitting together. Besides, some birds are absolute monsters and I couldn't attribute that kind of design to a benevolent deity.

You must believe your deities have powers, right? Do you believe they're eternal? Are there malevolent deities that would harm you that you need to appease?

In 20 years, I never dealt with anything that required appeasement or was malevolent.
Powers? I guess. I'm not really impressed with displays of power so it's not something I pay much attention to.

I read that old pentacles had a 6-angle star (like star of David). Are you familiar with this?

Sure, some had 7, some had 12 or 13.

 

[dlamberth]

I agree with you about every blade of grass, every leaf, every tree and worm, every critter and being point to God. The Bible says:

When replying to the question of God revealing Himself in Scripture, I was being more direct than "pointing" to God when using the term "Word of God". I think for me the difference has a lot to do with God becoming alive and vibrant for a person everywhere they look.

 

[Andrewn]

Each of us has that Christ stuff as the essence of our Soul. An example that really came home for me was in my watching the bonding Love a mother has for her newborn child. In the case I'm thinking of was in watching my daughter with my grand-daughter's birth. But with now opened eyes, I began to see that Christ like Love way differently and everywhere I looked. To be honest I prefer to use the term "Light of God" more than the term "Christ". That's because I don't know how to bound or limit the Light of God to a single physical entity as one might find in a Christian setting. The Light of God is a Cosmic wide experience for me with no limits in it's depth, breath and vibrancy. But here in this Christian forum it's Christ that I use but seems much more limited in scope to me because it's all tied to a single person.

Christ is the "Light of God," the Shekinah mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures. He is not limited to a single physical entity but is manifested in the Lord Jesus in its fullness. The beliefs you mention are compatible with true understanding of Christianity. I'm not sure why you reject Christianity, is it that you don't believe in the atonement and resurrection of Jesus?

What I enjoy reading most are books written by the Mystics and Wisdom keepers of the world. Those are the folks I believe have God as a reality in their lives. They are the ones I learn most from.

I think adoration of the sacred heart of Christ is wonderful. Do you believe in the afterlife?

 

[Andrewn]

I like the pentacle is a memorable symbol of my faith.

What does it symbolize to you?

I have been known to pray to a horned god (not to be confused with Cernunnos)

Is it Khnum or one of the Celtic deities? What do you consider the deities to be?

I celebrate the sabbats because they feel fairly natural to me. My religion is very earth-centric so seasonal changes matter quite a lot to me. I also observe the movements of the sun and moon; I do rituals on perihelion, aphelion and full moons where reasonably possible. These usually entail short prayers and offerings rather than something elaborate.

What's the purpose of these rituals. In the Bible we read that such rituals are no longer meaningful:

Col 2:14 He destroyed the record of the debt we owed, with its requirements that worked against us. He canceled it by nailing it to the cross. 15 When he disarmed the rulers and authorities, he exposed them to public disgrace by leading them in a triumphal parade. 16 So don’t let anyone judge you about eating or drinking or about a festival, a new moon observance, or sabbaths. 17 These religious practices are only a shadow of what was coming—the body that cast the shadow is Christ.

Currently I mostly deal in printed icons but I have some physical altar tiles; one wooden pentacle and a Celtic knot next to my incense burner. I have a couple of charms from a Shinto shrine that a friend brought back so my altar space is very eclectic.

What does the Celtic knot and other objects mean to you?

The syncreticism of the ancient world spread shockingly far in a way that is un-intuitive to modern people understanding religion. Classic examples include Ptolemaic Egypt fusing Greek and Egyptian gods a la Serapis or syncretized Isis but one of my favorite examples is the Hellenic Buddhism of Bactria (modern Afghanistan) at the height of the Alexandrian empire. Additionally we know that Roman deities were very popular in the British isles and regularly worshiped alongside Celtic deities. Gallo-Roman religion was simply another example of this infusion. We also know that a temple to Isis stood in London in the 1st century CE.

I find this fascinating. I believe that Buddhist philosophy spread not only eastward to China and Japan but also westward to Alexandria, Athens, and Rome. I believe it affected the so called mystery religions and Stoic philosophy. Is this something you observed in your studies?

I do not believe the afterlife mostly because I do not believe in an eternal soul. I believe we should embrace this life and all of its fullness. My religion is orthopraxic rather than orthodoxic, there is no doctrinal wrongthink but your actions matter. These actions are composed of prayer, meditation, ritual and offering as well as the possession of symbols. Names and symbols have their own special meanings. I am very progressive and also much of an environmentalist; I want to see both human and animal kingdoms thrive and I believe we are apart of our natural world as it is a part of us.

Without belief in the afterlife, what's the point in worship and rituals and orthpraxy?

I have no sacred scripture but I have sources that inspire me; some ancient ones include the Enchiridion by Epictetus and De Rerem Natura by Lucretius. I take a lot of inspiration from the Romantic poets of the late 19th century as did many Neopagan forebears. I also am a big fan of humanist works. It might help to examine my outlook by looking at some figures that inspire me: The Epicureans and the Stoics, Hypatia of Alexandria, Baruch Spinoza, Giordano Bruno, Henry David Thoreau, John Muir, Oberon Zell-Ravenheart.

You're quite well-informed. Are you a philosopher? I haven't read much in philosophy.

 

[Andrewn]

Black Iron Prison was the idea that humans are stuck in a prison of samsara, endlessly reborn under the warden (demiurge). It's such a good prison it doesn't need guards. The idea was that Jesus came to do a 'jailbreak'. Basically to put cracks in the fake reality, so people could begin to escape (escape endless rebirth and go to heaven).

I like this word picture. Perhaps oriental religions can relate to this. Is this concept related to Manichaeism

I like being counter culture. When I left the faith years ago, I felt I was going against the grain so to speak. People were shocked I gave up on my beliefs and exploring new paths. Now, in today's culture, I get the same reaction when I tell people I am becoming Catholic and go to mass every Sunday. Never been one to follow the crowd I suppose.

<LOL>.

 

[Andrewn]

First is the Unitarian Universalist Association or UUA for short. This group grew out of the original Unitarians and Universalist but no longer consider themselves a Christian church/group. They are welcoming to all individuals no matter their religious/spiritual beliefs or lack thereof and believe in secular humanism.

Until recently, this was the only group I had been familiar with. I agree that they're not Christians. They're more Universalist than Unitarian.

Then you have the Biblical unitarians who do not believe in the trinity or that Jesus was God, but they still believe he was divine and believe in many other traditional Christian Doctrines such as the virgin birth, vicarious atonement, etc. These types of unitarians include your JWs, Mormons, Christiandelphians, Oness Pentecostalist, and others.

This category constitutes a mixture of diverse beliefs that shouldn't be grouped together, should not be called Unitarians.

Finally, you have the Classical/Strict Unitarians such as me. This group does not believe in the trinity or the divinity of Jesus, but believe he was a human endowed with the wisdom of God and was his prophet, a son of God (spiritually/metaphorically), and to them was the savior. This group rejects many traditional Christian doctrines such as original sin, eternal hell, the virgin birth, vicarious atonement, etc. I have only saw one other person on here who identified as a Unitarian, but I am not certain if they were a UUA individual or like me.

These is the only group I would describe as "Unitarians." Are you familiar with the Iglesia ni Cristo and La Luz del Mundo? Do you share similar beliefs?

Iglesia ni Cristo - Wikipedia

La Luz del Mundo - Wikipedia

 

[Starcomet]

Until recently, this was the only group I had been familiar with. I agree that they're not Christians. They're more Universalist than Unitarian.

They are religious Universalist in that they accept all religions as being equal. Some are traditional Universalist like me and believe that in the end God will save all, but many UUAs do not believe in God or have a very vague definition of God.

This category constitutes a mixture of diverse beliefs that shouldn't be grouped together, should not be called Unitarians.

True, but form a scholarly prospective they are considered "unitarians" or non-trinitarians rather than "Unitarians" because of their traditional conservative Christian beliefs.

Are you familiar with the Iglesia ni Cristo and La Luz del Mundo? Do you share similar beliefs?

Iglesia ni Cristo - Wikipedia

La Luz del Mundo - Wikipedia

I am familiar with them, but I do not share their all of their beliefs. They are more along the lines of unitarians/nontrinitarians. Iglesia believe Jesus was a man but still believe in the virgin birth I think, vicarious atonement, and that he existed in some way before his entrance into the world. La Luz del Mundo is similar in that they believe Jesus was crucified for the world's sins. Both groups also believe it is fine to pray to Jesus.

 

[TheOldWays]

Do you bring any of your Buddhist training into your Christian life?

Mainly what my learned from practicing zen budhhism. Allows me to just 'chill' and enjoy the experience without getting caught up in the what if's, but's and why's.

 

[Andrewn]

My fascination with birds extends well past feeding and watching. I read ornithology text books for fun and it covers biology, their evolution from theropods, behavior. You start to see the pieces fitting together. Besides, some birds are absolute monsters and I couldn't attribute that kind of design to a benevolent deity.

Excellent. Intelligent design doesn't assume that God created every single species. It admits that natural selection contributed to the variety.

In 20 years, I never dealt with anything that required appeasement or was malevolent. Powers? I guess. I'm not really impressed with displays of power so it's not something I pay much attention to.

Have you encountered anything that was benevolent? Plz explain.

 

[Andrewn]

Iglesia believe Jesus was a man but still believe in the virgin birth I think, vicarious atonement, and that he existed in some way before his entrance into the world.

Yes, come to think of it, this sounds closer to JW's.

La Luz del Mundo is similar in that they believe Jesus was crucified for the world's sins. Both groups also believe it is fine to pray to Jesus.

You said you didn't believe in vicarious atonement but you believe that Jesus was the savior. In what sense is the Lord Jesus the Savior? Do you believe he was resurrected from the dead? Do you pray to him?

 

[Andrewn]

Mainly what my learned from practicing zen budhhism. Allows me to just 'chill' and enjoy the experience without getting caught up in the what if's, but's and why's.

In your experience, is Zen completely compatible with Christianity?

 

[Starcomet]

You said you didn't believe in vicarious atonement but you believe that Jesus was the savior. In what sense is the Lord Jesus the Savior? Do you believe he was resurrected from the dead? Do you pray to him?

We Unitarian Christians tend to see Jesus as the "savior" in that he is the way shower to God and true salvation from sin. I personally believe he was the messiah in the spiritual sense that he was anointed by God at his baptism. Through his teachings and example we can be free from Sin. I believe he was spiritually resurrected from the dead, but not physically. I believe his followers experienced a spiritual event that made them all believe he was not truly gone. And I am a non-adorantist and believe that all prayer should be directed to God the Father. I still believe it is fine to venerate Jesus just as you would venerate someone you admire greatly like one of the Saints (Although he was greater than all the Saints.), but the highest worship and praise is reserved for God.

 

[awitch]

Excellent. Intelligent design doesn't assume that God created every single species. It admits that natural selection contributed to the variety.

To accept intelligent design is to accept the designer is grossly incompetent. Natural selection, artificial selection, sexual selection, mutation etc, are sufficient to explain the diversity of life on earth without the need for a designer. Intelligent design is really just repackaged Creationism; it contributes nothing to science.

Have you encountered anything that was benevolent? Plz explain.

That gets very deep, very fast. It depends on your qualifications for being benevolent. How can a god be benevolent while not intervening in the worlds' atrocities? If a god is omni powerful, then how could that god be anything but malevolent if it dictates those atrocities? But if a god does have to constantly intervene to be benevolent , how much of our free will do we lose?

I suppose it's most accurate to say that I believe my deities would have to be mostly indifferent. They are not all powerful, do not cause such atrocities, and do not punish anyone for non-belief, nor is there any guaranteed reward for believing. They inspire.

 

[dlamberth]

Christ is the "Light of God," the Shekinah mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures. He is not limited to a single physical entity but is manifested in the Lord Jesus in its fullness. The beliefs you mention are compatible with true understanding of Christianity. I'm not sure why you reject Christianity, is it that you don't believe in the atonement and resurrection of Jesus?

Since my de-conversion years ago, atonement for sin has no place in my spiritual life. I've been completely freed from those images and beliefs. I no longer believe that that's what it's about. I also am not able to limit or bound up the Light of God into a single entity, namely Jesus in this case. It's clear to me that the Light of God is alive, vibrant and experienced across the spectrum of Human existence. It's something that can be seen in people regardless of their religious beliefs.

But also the way I see Christianity goes something like this. Standing over there on one side is Christ. And standing apart somewhere else is the religion called Christianity. And it's only rarely that they cross paths. Which reminds me of the medieval woman mystic named Marguerite Porete. She wrote that there are two churches. The first she called High Holy Church. That church she wrote preaches Love. The other church she called the Little Holy Church. That church preaches rules, law and order. Christianity, from my experience is for the most part the Little Holy Church. I ask myself, why would I want to be a part of that? I'm much more drawn to the church that preaches Love. As a final note on Marguerite Porete, she was burned at the stake by the Little Holy Church. It seems that they didn't like her take on the Soul.

Do you believe in the afterlife?

I have no ideas or beliefs of an afterlife. For me, that's not at all what it's about.

 

[TheOldWays]

In your experience, is Zen completely compatible with Christianity?

The practices can be. Anything meditative I think can be used in all paths. The teachings of zen are probably not. Zen will say there is a god and there isn't a god and it doesn't matter if there is or isn't. Obviously not an orthodox Christian mindset. Although it's a mindset I still hold.

 

[Andrewn]

When replying to the question of God revealing Himself in Scripture, I was being more direct than "pointing" to God when using the term "Word of God". I think for me the difference has a lot to do with God becoming alive and vibrant for a person everywhere they look.

You wrote, "I'd say the every blade of grass, every leaf, every tree and worm, every critter and being is the Word of God." Did you mean this in a pantheistic way?

As you know, in Christianity, expressions like "Light of God," "Word of God," "Name of God," "Spirit of God" refer to God himself and His immanence through the Holy Son and the Holy Spirit.

Since my de-conversion years ago, atonement for sin has no place in my spiritual life. I've been completely freed from those images and beliefs. I no longer believe that that's what it's about.

I understand this view, especially if you don't believe in the afterlife.

I also am not able to limit or bound up the Light of God into a single entity, namely Jesus in this case. It's clear to me that the Light of God is alive, vibrant and experienced across the spectrum of Human existence. It's something that can be seen in people regardless of their religious beliefs.

The "Light of God" is not limited to Jesus but is fully-expressed in Him. God is omnipresent. Christians believe that people have the "Image of God," a spark of the divine but they can reject it.

But also the way I see Christianity goes something like this. Standing over there on one side is Christ. And standing apart somewhere else is the religion called Christianity. And it's only rarely that they cross paths. Which reminds me of the medieval woman mystic named Marguerite Porete. She wrote that there are two churches. The first she called High Holy Church. That church she wrote preaches Love. The other church she called the Little Holy Church. That church preaches rules, law and order. Christianity, from my experience is for the most part the Little Holy Church. I ask myself, why would I want to be a part of that? I'm much more drawn to the church that preaches Love. As a final note on Marguerite Porete, she was burned at the stake by the Little Holy Church. It seems that they didn't like her take on the Soul.

This is very sad. God made people with a free will and to persecute them for expressing their freedom can only be satanic.

I have no ideas or beliefs of an afterlife. For me, that's not at all what it's about.

If you believe people have a spark of divinity, belief in the afterlife would make sense.