Israel is “not a state of all its citizens”

[Shiloh Raven]

It was. Manifest Destiny comes to mind.

Very true.

 

[Sparagmos]

Can you think of a more valid reason?

I have no idea what you mean.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Non-Jews have been Israelis since the beginning. There are Arabs and Druze that have Israeli citizenship. Till recently, Arabic was an official language of Israel.

I understand that they are Israeli citizens by law but one would be hard pressed to say at first sight or at first mention that a man who is Arab and Muslim is an Israeli.

There is an ethnic/religious Jewish element to the state of Israel which is core to it's identity as a nation and I'm not necessarily against that.

 

[anna ~ grace]

I understand that they are Israeli citizens by law but one would be hard pressed to say at first sight or at first mention that a man who is Arab and Muslim is an Israeli.

There is an ethnic/religious Jewish element to the state of Israel which is core to it's identity as a nation and I'm not necessarily against that.

I think one thing that baffles a lot of people (like me), is an evangelical insistence that the modern day State of Israel was God's active Will, and that it is something innately holy that we must support almost unilaterally. I don't know about that. I have also heard that the politics of the PLO / Hamas are / were pretty awful. I think I'm trying to distance myself from Zionism = theology, either way. I'm not sure. Thank you, though. Everything that everyone says helps a little, in some way.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I think one thing that baffles a lot of people (like me), is an evangelical insistence that the modern day State of Israel was God's active Will, and that it is something innately holy that we must support almost unilaterally. I don't know about that. I have also heard that the politics of the PLO / Hamas are / were pretty awful. I think I'm trying to distance myself from Zionism = theology, either way. I'm not sure. Thank you, though. Everything that everyone says helps a little, in some way.

I mostly can't buy into the Israel focused theology because it seems absent from Christian thinking until Pentecostalism and the obsession with the end times in some Christian circles. Before then Christians never had a concept of reviving a Jewish state but would have preferred it to be retaken for Christendom.

Israel as a State does seem like a miracle and I think God might have been behind it, that however does not obligate the Christian to back Israel at any cost. Israel must be judged like any other nation.

 

[anna ~ grace]

I mostly can't buy into the Israel focused theology because it seems absent from Christian thinking until Pentecostalism and the obsession with the end times in some Christian circles. Before then Christians never had a concept of reviving a Jewish state but would have preferred it to be retaken for Christendom.

Israel as a State does seem like a miracle and I think God might have been behind it, that however does not obligate the Christian to back Israel at any cost. Israel must be judged like any other nation.

What I have also noticed, is that Evangelical news about the Holy Land almost always excludes reference to what life is like, on the ground, for local Catholic and Orthodox Christians, and the increasingly marginalized Messianic Jewish population in Israel. And how both communities suffer on / because of either side of the wall. I get a lot of news about acts of violence perpetrated by Muslim Arabs, but that's about it. Not much else. I'm thinking there has got to be a lot more to the story.

 

[FireDragon76]

I think one thing that baffles a lot of people (like me), is an evangelical insistence that the modern day State of Israel was God's active Will, and that it is something innately holy that we must support almost unilaterally. I don't know about that. I have also heard that the politics of the PLO / Hamas are / were pretty awful. I think I'm trying to distance myself from Zionism = theology, either way. I'm not sure. Thank you, though. Everything that everyone says helps a little, in some way.

That seems like a reasonable stance.

Israel should be held to the same standards as every other nation in terms of human rights, which is why my denomination, by an overwhelming vote of support, has favored divestment in companies that are involved in the occupation of Palestinian lands. However, that's not the same as calling for a general boycott of Israel or being anti-Israeli in general.

 

[grasping the after wind]

I have no idea what you mean.

That's unfortunate. I was not being the least bit subtle. Is there a more legitimate reason to take land than having a holy book that tells you to? I cannot think of one myself.

 

[TLK Valentine]

He isn't wrong. That's the entire point of the state of Israel, to be a Jewish state, the only Jewish state in the world and to suggest that non Jews are Israelis would result destroy Israel as we know it.

Seems the "quest for ethnic purity" shoe is on the other foot, doesn't it?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Seems the "quest for ethnic purity" shoe is on the other foot, doesn't it?

Meaning what exactly?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Meaning what exactly?

It means that Israel wants a nation where only those of a certain "kind" -- be it racially, ethnically, or religiously -- are acceptable.

I seem to recall something in my history books where they found themselves on the wrong end of that kind of thinking...

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

It means that Israel wants a nation where only those of a certain "kind" -- be it racially, ethnically, or religiously -- are acceptable.

I seem to recall something in my history books where they found themselves on the wrong end of that kind of thinking...

I don't believe that for a second. If ever we see the Christian or Muslim communities put in ovens, then you have a point. Israel has a vested interest in keeping it's minority population safe; It's Christian population to ensure good relationships with Christian countries to ensure not only alliances but the tourism industry. The Muslim population cannot be totally destroyed because Israel is surrounded by hostile Muslim nations and that seems a good a check as any against wiping out the Muslim community wholesale. At the same time Israel has an interest in being a Jewish State and why shouldn't it? Jews for centuries have lacked a state of their own and their fates have been dictated by the whims of those in power whom they were subject to. Why should it be wrong for Israel to seek to keep the identity as a Jewish nation primarily?

Having a religious/ethnic national identity isn't a bad thing.

 

[usexpat97]

Having a religious/ethnic national identity isn't a bad thing.

Having one that identifies yourselves as uniquely earmarked by God and better than everyone else is.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Having one that identifies yourselves as uniquely earmarked by God and better than everyone else is.

Arrogance is never something to be encouraged.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I don't believe that for a second. If ever we see the Christian or Muslim communities put in ovens, then you have a point.

The point sounds like anything short of stuffing them in ovens is perfectly acceptable.

I would like to point out that "stuffing them in ovens" wasn't how it began when they were on the wrong end of it, either...

(Not to imply that there's ever a "right" end to that sort if thinking...)

Israel has a vested interest in keeping it's minority population safe; It's Christian population to ensure good relationships with Christian countries to ensure not only alliances but the tourism industry.

If alliances and tourism is the only things stopping them from ethnic cleansing, maybe we should rethink our alliance with them...

The Muslim population cannot be totally destroyed because Israel is surrounded by hostile Muslim nations and that seems a good a check as any against wiping out the Muslim community wholesale.

Remember the good ol days, when people argued against committing atrocities not because of negative consequences, but because they were atrocities?

Don't worry; I still do.

At the same time Israel has an interest in being a Jewish State and why shouldn't it? Jews for centuries have lacked a state of their own and their fates have been dictated by the whims of those in power whom they were subject to.

And now that they are in power, they can learn from the mistakes of those who once persecuted them... by doing it right this time?

Why should it be wrong for Israel to seek to keep the identity as a Jewish nation primarily?

Depends on how they intend to deal with those who don't measure up to their ideal...

Having a religious/ethnic national identity isn't a bad thing.

What a nation does in its attempts to enforce such an identity can go bad very, very quickly. One would think the Jews, of all people, would know that.

Of course, it only takes a few generations for a people to forget...

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The point sounds like anything short of stuffing them in ovens is perfectly acceptable.

I would like to point out that "stuffing them in ovens" wasn't how it began when they were on the wrong end of it, either...

(Not to imply that there's ever a "right" end to that sort if thinking...)



If alliances and tourism is the only things stopping them from ethnic cleansing, maybe we should rethink our alliance with them...



Remember the good ol days, when people argued against committing atrocities not because of negative consequences, but because they were atrocities?

Don't worry; I still do.




And now that they are in power, they can learn from the mistakes of those who once persecuted them... by doing it right this time?



Depends on how they intend to deal with those who don't measure up to their ideal...



What a nation does in its attempts to enforce such an identity can go bad very, very quickly. One would think the Jews, of all people, would know that.

Of course, it only takes a few generations for a people to forget...

If the Jews ever begin invading Lebanon, Syria, Egypt in an attempt to establish the Jewish equivalent of Lebensraum you will have a point. I don't see that happening and nor do I see Jews attempting to confiscate Christian owned holy sites or property or establish the Third temple.

Your fear of national identities and the preservation of those identities has not been justified nor can you make the argument statements like Netenyahu's will lead to a Nazi state of Israel.

 

[Sparagmos]

That's unfortunate. I was not being the least bit subtle. Is there a more legitimate reason to take land than having a holy book that tells you to? I cannot think of one myself.

Oh, interesting. So if some people showed up at your house and said their holy book instructed them to take over the house, you would find that legitimate? I mean, there are a bazillion “holy books” out there.

 

[TLK Valentine]

If the Jews ever begin invading Lebanon, Syria, Egypt in an attempt to establish the Jewish equivalent of Lebensraum you will have a point. I don't see that happening and nor do I see Jews attempting to confiscate Christian owned holy sites or property or establish the Third temple.

Sounds like anything short of nazism is fair game...

Your fear of national identities and the preservation of those identities has not been justified nor can you make the argument statements like Netenyahu's will lead to a Nazi state of Israel.

All I have on my side is history... attempts by a nation to enforce racial/ethnic/religious purity have always:

A. Been stopped, either from within or without,
B. Escalated to the point of atrocity,
C. A., because B. happened first.

Of course, I'm sure Israel's attempts to do so will end completely differently, because... Israel has God on their side, and as we all know, God has never commanded ethnic cleansing, or any other form of atrocity.... right?

Yeah, let's just leave this one in Israel's hands, and see how it goes. I'm sure nobody will be inconvenienced who doesn't deserve it.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Oh, interesting. So if some people showed up at your house and said their holy book instructed them to take over the house, you would find that legitimate? I mean, there are a bazillion “holy books” out there.

They seem easy enough to write...

 

[Sparagmos]

Why should it be wrong for Israel to seek to keep the identity as a Jewish nation primarily?

Having a religious/ethnic national identity isn't a bad thing.

Because non-Jews live there, and lived there before the state of Israel was created. If you have to bulldoze someone’s house to maintain your religious or ethnic nation, something is wrong. Discrimination based on religion or race is wrong. What’s going on in Israel is apartheid, plain and simple and my Jewish friends here in the U.S. agree.