Israel is “not a state of all its citizens”

[TLK Valentine]

Because non-Jews live there, and lived there before the state of Israel was created. If you have to bulldoze someone’s house to maintain your religious or ethnic nation, something is wrong. Discrimination based on religion or race is wrong. What’s going on in Israel is apartheid, plain and simple and my Jewish friends here in the U.S. agree.

Yes, but bulldozing someone's house is perfectly acceptable because at least you're not marching them into ovens... isn't moral relativism useful?

 

[Sparagmos]

Yes, but bulldozing someone's house is perfectly acceptable because at least you're not marching them into ovens... isn't moral relativism useful?

If only the world hadn’t waited for people to be marched into ovens to intervene! Even then, the world, including the church, looked the other way for quite a while.

 

[TLK Valentine]

If only the world hadn’t waited for people to be marched into ovens to intervene! Even then, the world, including the church, looked the other way for quite a while.

Still the notion that anything even remotely resembling that could ever happen again is not something we're allowed to consider... especially since it's Israel we're discussing...because... reasons.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Oh, interesting. So if some people showed up at your house and said their holy book instructed them to take over the house, you would find that legitimate? I mean, there are a bazillion “holy books” out there.

Where did you get the idea that I considered it legitimate to take things based upon a holy book? I asked you what would you consider a more legitimate reason to take land than to do so based upon a holy book? I did not once claim that taking land based upon a holy book was legitimate. I only said I could not think of a more legitimate reason for taking land. Perhaps you misunderstood my meaning to be that there were legitimate reasons but that basing it on a holy book was more legitimate than those other reasons. I assure that was not what I meant at all.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Sounds like anything short of nazism is fair game...



All I have on my side is history... attempts by a nation to enforce racial/ethnic/religious purity have always:

A. Been stopped, either from within or without,
B. Escalated to the point of atrocity,
C. A., because B. happened first.

Of course, I'm sure Israel's attempts to do so will end completely differently, because... Israel has God on their side, and as we all know, God has never commanded ethnic cleansing, or any other form of atrocity.... right?

Yeah, let's just leave this one in Israel's hands, and see how it goes. I'm sure nobody will be inconvenienced who doesn't deserve it.

Except it's not true that nationalism has always lead to extremism. Plenty of countries within the world have nationalist origins especially in the breaking away from previous empires. Not everyone of them is guilty of crimes as great as Japan or Germany. Once again, it only becomes a problem if the nation itself begins to do the things which are immoral. You cannot infer from, say Hungary, putting up a fence to limit illegal immigration or encouraging their own Hungarian citizens to have more children, that it will lead to extremism.

The worst examples of countries with a focus on nationalism were those countries which combined that nationalism with an imperialism and looked outward. They wanted more land and justified their atrocities in the spreading of their dominance and territory.

As for what Israel will do, if your convinced the Jews are going to mass execute non-Jews then that's your belief. I can't convince you from your prejudices towards the Jewish people and the threat you believe they pose to everyone.

Yet why would you want to leave anything into any countries hand alone? Israel is contained by the factors I explained above. It cannot do things like kill it's non Jewish citizens (which you have not proven they will do) because of the world's reaction. No one would support them.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Because non-Jews live there, and lived there before the state of Israel was created. If you have to bulldoze someone’s house to maintain your religious or ethnic nation, something is wrong. Discrimination based on religion or race is wrong. What’s going on in Israel is apartheid, plain and simple and my Jewish friends here in the U.S. agree.

How does Israel discriminate between it's non Jewish citizens and Jewish citizens? Provide an example.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Except it's not true that nationalism has always lead to extremism.

This is not merely nationalism -- this is an attempt to combine nationalism with a specific racial/ethnic/religious identity

SPOILER: it never ends well.

I'm sure, for example, you've heard of "white nationalism" here in the US of A... (hint: it's... not very nice)

 

[TLK Valentine]

How does Israel discriminate between it's non Jewish citizens and Jewish citizens? Provide an example.

They haven't done so yet... do you want to wait until they do... so you can justify it with a blithe "it's just discrimination -- they're not marching people into the ovens..."?

 

[Goonie]

How does Israel discriminate between it's non Jewish citizens and Jewish citizens? Provide an example.

Netanyahu is right: Israel is a nation with no interest in equality | Amjad Iraqi
Non Jews are barred from buying property in the vast majority of Israel for example.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

This is not merely nationalism -- this is an attempt to combine nationalism with a specific racial/ethnic/religious identity

SPOILER: it never ends well.

I'm sure, for example, you've heard of "white nationalism" here in the US of A... (hint: it's... not very nice)

Nationalism is nothing less than the preservation of a country's racial, ethnic and religious identity. Why do you think Poland managed to emerge as a country, or Hungary, Greece, Armenia or others? They only emerged as a result of a group of people living there. It is not inherently extremist to look out for the group the nation represents and seek to preserve that legacy.

Your keen to draw analogies to the Nazis but we know what the Nazis did and Israel isn't doing that. Till they do, what is your case for the incoming dangers of Israel as the ONE JEWISH Nation wanting to protect it's Jewish identity? What can Israel do in your opinion to want to preserve it's Jewish character is that bad?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Where did you get the idea that I considered it legitimate to take things based upon a holy book? I asked you what would you consider a more legitimate reason to take land than to do so based upon a holy book? I did not once claim that taking land based upon a holy book was legitimate. I only said I could not think of a more legitimate reason for taking land. Perhaps you misunderstood my meaning to be that there were legitimate reasons but that basing it on a holy book was more legitimate than those other reasons. I assure that was not what I meant at all.

Personally, I can only think of a precious few legitimate reasons to take anything that doesn't belong to me, and "holy book," frankly, doesn't make my list.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Nationalism is nothing less than the preservation of a country's racial, ethnic and religious identity.

Who gets to decide that identity? Are they the same ones who get to enforce it?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

They haven't done so yet... do you want to wait until they do... so you can justify it with a blithe "it's just discrimination -- they're not marching people into the ovens..."?

When they start doing dangerous things then I will be worried about Israeli nationalism. Right now they are doing nothing, right now you have nothing except your prejudice against the danger of the Juden.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Who gets to decide that identity? Are they the same ones who get to enforce it?

Generally people decide their national identities and then form a political union of sorts based on that identity. We call these countries.

 

[TLK Valentine]

When they start doing dangerous things then I will be worried about Israeli nationalism. Right now they are doing nothing, right now you have nothing except your prejudice against the danger of the Juden.

Perhaps you missed the part where the non Jews are prohibited from purchasing property.

But hey, I'm sure that's as far as it will go... it always is.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Generally people decide their national identities and then form a political union of sorts based on that identity. We call these countries.

And people who don't fit that identity... what usually happens to them?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

And people who don't fit that identity... what usually happens to them?

What happens to whom where and when? We can't speak in generalities with regards to a generic country's treatment of it's minorities.

Perhaps you missed the part where the non Jews are prohibited from purchasing property.

But hey, I'm sure that's as far as it will go... it always is.

Probably is as far as it will go. Other than your suspicions of the evil intentions of the Jews, what other evidence do you have?

 

[TLK Valentine]

What happens to whom where and when? We can't speak in generalities with regards to a generic country's treatment of it's minorities.

We can look at history and see what nations fixated on racial/ethnic/religious purity typically did to those who didn't measure up...

SPOILER: it's usually not pretty.

Probably is as far as it will go.

Yeah, that's the great thing about quests for purity... they always stop before they get weird, don't they?

Other than your suspicions of the evil intentions of the Jews, what other evidence do you have?

I have history on my side. You don't.

Why do you trust one race more than all the others? What makes them better than the rest of us?

 

[Jonaitis]

Benjamin Netanyahu says Israel is ‘not a state of all its citizens’

Israel a “Jewish, democratic state” with equal rights, but “the nation state not of all its citizens but only of the Jewish people”.

Discrimination...

By the way, the modern state is not the Israel of biblical times. For many Jews, it is a place where one's identity matters more than theology, something Christian Zionists don't realize. It was ideal, before WWII, that the Jewish homeland would have been in South America (and other places), while Palestine was just another option among the proposals.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Discrimination...

By the way, the modern state is not the Israel of biblical times. For many Jews, it is a place where one's identity matters more than theology, something Christian Zionists don't realize. It was ideal, before WWII, that the Jewish homeland would have been in South America (and other places), while Palestine was just another option among the proposals.

Yes, but now that they have that real estate, they have to make sure that only the pure get to live on it.

I can't be the only one who sees certain historical parallels here -- none of them pleasant.

Or am I?