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Israel-Hamas Thread II

JosephZ

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How Hamas Ends

A Strategy for Letting the Group Defeat Itself

The war in Gaza has settled into a mind-numbing pattern of violence, bloodshed, and death. And everyone is losing—except Hamas.

The Israeli government’s highly lethal response to the October 7 attack and seeming indifference to the death and suffering of Palestinian civilians has played into Hamas’s hands.

Despite some tactical victories, the Israeli war in Gaza has been a strategic disaster. For Israel to defeat Hamas, it needs a better strategy, one informed by a deeper understanding of how terrorist groups generally end.

Since October 7, Israel has been trying to crush or repress Hamas out of existence, to little avail. A smarter strategy would be to figure out how to chip away at the group’s support and hasten its collapse.

Military repression has a poor track record as a form of counterterrorism. It is difficult and costly to sustain and tends to work best when members of a terrorist group can be separated from the general population, a condition that is hard to create in most places.

In explaining their repressive approach in Gaza, Israeli leaders have argued that Hamas is similar to the Islamic State (also known as ISIS) and can be defeated in a similar way. It is true that, by 2017, a U.S.-led coalition had reconquered territory that ISIS seized in Iraq and Syria in 2014, reducing the group’s presence in those places. Yet ISIS has not ended. Instead, it has splintered into nine groups it calls “provinces,” which are based all over the world and still plot and sometimes successfully carry out bloody attacks.

Unlike ISIS, which is an explicitly transnational movement, Hamas is an exclusively Palestinian group, focused on winning control of contested territory. Military force can degrade Hamas’s hold on Gaza, but without a political solution to the underlying territorial dispute, the group would soon reemerge in some form and resume targeting Israeli military forces and civilians.

Ultimately, Israel’s lack of success in Gaza so far should come as no surprise: counterterrorism that is purely military rarely works and is especially difficult for a democracy to pull off.

Most terrorist groups end... because they fail, either by collapsing in on themselves or by losing support. Groups that implode sometimes die out during generational shifts, disintegrate into factions, break down over operational disagreements, or fracture over ideological differences.

Groups also fail because they lose popular support. Sometimes, that is because governments offer members a better alternative, such as amnesty or jobs.

But by far the most important reason terrorist groups fail is that they miscalculate, especially by making targeting errors that stir revulsion among important constituencies.

Israel’s excessive use of military force has strengthened Hamas’s hold and aided the group’s propaganda about what happened on October 7. According to a poll that Shikaki conducted in March, 90 percent of Palestinians dismiss the idea that Hamas engaged in war crimes that day. Any revulsion that ordinary Gazans might have felt about what Hamas did in their name was likely overwhelmed by their horror over what Israel has done to their loved ones, homes, and cities.

The far more likely way that Hamas could fail is through popular backlash. Hamas rules Gaza through oppression, using arrests and torture to suppress dissent.

To help Hamas fail, Israel should be doing everything in its power to give Palestinians in Gaza a sense that there is an alternative to Hamas and that a more hopeful future is possible.

It seems possible that external actors such as the United States, Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia might eventually find a way to push Israel and the Palestinians into a renewed diplomatic process aimed at creating a two-state solution. Such negotiations would be long, fraught, and hamstrung by extremists on both sides. But merely announcing a process would have salutary effects. Indeed, it could even create the conditions for what might be the most likely way for Hamas’s terrorism to end: self-defeat.

Instead of restricting humanitarian aid to a trickle, Israel should be providing it in massive quantities. Instead of merely destroying infrastructure and homes, Israel should also be sharing plans for rebuilding the territory in a post-Hamas future. Instead of carrying out collective punishment and hoping that Palestinians will eventually blame Hamas, Israel should be conveying that it sees a distinction between Hamas fighters and the vast majority of Gazans, who have nothing to do with the group and are themselves victims of its thuggish rule and reckless violence.

After decades of struggling with Hamas and months of fighting a massive, brutal war against it, Israel still seems unlikely to defeat the group. But it can still win—by helping Hamas defeat itself.


Less than 20%...
 
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truthpls

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Yes against the enemies of Israel.
No. TO Israel. God only defends the saved survivors in the end, after they accept Jesus. Until then we see that over 2/3 of them will die in the time of the wrath of God. Believers are not appointed unto wrath, but unbelievers are.
 
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truthpls

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Once again this is Hamas' fault in conjunction with their Palestinian supporters. There is really no way to tell them from anyone else. And the moment you think you can they blow themselves up and kill you.
Actually I don't think they come to other countries generally and kill civilians. The target of their rebellion and fight are the ones there who have imprisoned and abused them.
 
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Valletta

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"This week, the troops located a tunnel shaft inside a child's room, and a butcher's knife next to it. In addition, the troops identified six terrorists near a school in the area of the troops. The terrorists were eliminated by a UAV and tank fire," the IDF said in a statement.
 
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truthpls

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"This week, the troops located a tunnel shaft inside a child's room, and a butcher's knife next to it. In addition, the troops identified six terrorists near a school in the area of the troops. The terrorists were eliminated by a UAV and tank fire," the IDF said in a statement.
I see the article talks about 'The IDF said'. Ha. The ones terrorizing children and a population cannot be trusted, period.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Dozens killed in strike on U.N. school Israel says was used by Hamas

At least 35 were killed, a UNRWA leader said, as the IDF struck what it called a Hamas compound inside the school in central Gaza.

US urges Israel to be transparent over Gaza school strike

Local journalists told the BBC a warplane had fired two missiles at classrooms on the top floor of the school in the Nuseirat urban refugee camp.

Israeli army spokesperson Daniel Hagari gave the names of nine Hamas and Islamic Jihad fighters he said had been killed in the strike. He said more would be identified after work to “verify the information”.

In Washington, Mr Miller said the US has seen reports that 14 children were killed in the strike.

"If that is accurate that 14 children were killed, those aren’t terrorists," he said.

"And so the government of Israel has said they are going to release more information about this strike... We expect them to be fully transparent in making that information public.”

UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres condemned the strike through a spokesperson, saying that UN premises must be "inviolable" and protected by "all parties" during conflicts.
 
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Valletta

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Associated Press Analysis finds flaws in Hamas data, drop in rate of Gazan women, children killed​

The proportion of Palestinian women and children being killed in the Israel-Hamas war appears to have declined sharply, an Associated Press analysis of Gaza’s Hamas-run health ministry data, which cannot be verified, has found. This trend coincides both with Israel’s changing battlefield tactics and contradicts the Hamas-run ministry’s own public statements.
. . .
The AP’s analysis looked at these lists, which were shared on social media in late October, early January, late March, and the end of April. Each list includes the names of people whose deaths were attributable to the war, along with other identifying details.
The daily death tolls, however, are provided without supporting data. In February, ministry officials said 75% of the dead were women and children – a level that was never confirmed in the detailed reports. And as recently as March, the ministry’s daily reports claimed that 72% of the dead were women and children, even as underlying data clearly showed the percentage was well below that.
 
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essentialsaltes

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UN adds Israel to list of states committing violations against children

According to human rights officials, Hamas is also named in the report for its killing and kidnapping of children in its 7 October attack on Israel, in which nearly 1,200 Israelis were killed.

The report covers the killing, maiming, sexual abuse, abduction or recruitment of children, denial of aid access and targeting of schools and hospitals.

The report is compiled by the UN secretary general’s special representative for children and armed conflict, Virginia Gamba. The list attached to the report, is widely intended to name and shame parties to conflicts in the hope of deterring violence against children.

There have been claims by UN staff that Israel had been left off the list of offenders in previous years after political pressure from Israeli officials.

“There have been already a few years in which there have been verified violations by Israel government forces and by Palestinian armed groups, but they have never been listed,” Ezequiel Heffes, the director of the human rights group, Watchlist on Children and Armed Conflict.
 
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Valletta

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One of those rescued on Saturday, Argamani, has been one of the most widely recognized hostages since she was abducted from a music festival.

The video of her abduction was among the first to surface, images of her horrified face widely shared — Argamani detained between two men on a motorcycle, one arm outstretched and the other held down as she screams “Don’t kill me!”

Her mother, Liora, has stage four brain cancer and in April released a video pleading to see her daughter before she dies.
 
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th1bill

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UN adds Israel to list of states committing violations against children

According to human rights officials, Hamas is also named in the report for its killing and kidnapping of children in its 7 October attack on Israel, in which nearly 1,200 Israelis were killed.

The report covers the killing, maiming, sexual abuse, abduction or recruitment of children, denial of aid access and targeting of schools and hospitals.

The report is compiled by the UN secretary general’s special representative for children and armed conflict, Virginia Gamba. The list attached to the report, is widely intended to name and shame parties to conflicts in the hope of deterring violence against children.

There have been claims by UN staff that Israel had been left off the list of offenders in previous years after political pressure from Israeli officials.

“There have been already a few years in which there have been verified violations by Israel government forces and by Palestinian armed groups, but they have never been listed,” Ezequiel Heffes, the director of the human rights group, Watchlist on Children and Armed Conflict.
Stupid World Politicians of the United Nations live in a dream world and cannot awaken from their slumber. It is sickening to see the innocents killed in combat. On the other hand, Israel is besieged by the Arab Nations and even those nations with peace treaties demand the extermination of the Jew and the Christian 164 times in their ¿Holy Book? the Qu'ran. Israel must retaliate or be murdered.
 
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Pommer

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Stupid World Politicians of the United Nations live in a dream world and cannot awaken from their slumber. It is sickening to see the innocents killed in combat. On the other hand, Israel is besieged by the Arab Nations and even those nations with peace treaties demand the extermination of the Jew and the Christian 164 times in their ¿Holy Book? the Qu'ran. Israel must retaliate or be murdered.
Israel gets a pass because they’re threatened?

I’m sorry but if a state needs to kill every one of its enemies to “survive”, maybe it would be better if that state didn’t exist anymore?
 
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JosephZ

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Israel rescues 4 hostages kidnapped in a Hamas-led attack on Oct. 7

Israel said Saturday it rescued four hostages who were kidnapped in a Hamas-led attack on Oct. 7, in the largest such hostage recovery operation since the war with Hamas began in Gaza. The army said it rescued Noa Argamani, 25; Almog Meir Jan, 21; Andrey Kozlov, 27; and Shlomi Ziv, 40, in a...
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It's great that these hostages were rescued, but as more information is coming out, it's horrifying to learn that many Palestinians, including dozens of young children, were killed and injured in the process. I have a feeling that the loss of innocent lives will overshadow the news of the hostages being rescued.
 
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Valletta

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Using military force against terrorist groups in general rarely if ever works, and even more rarely against well-established terrorist groups like Hamas.

It's great that these hostages were rescued, but as more information is coming out, it's horrifying to learn that many Palestinians, including dozens of young children, were killed and injured in the process. I have a feeling that the loss of innocent lives will overshadow the news of the hostages being rescued.
I hope not. Unfortunately Hamas locates women and children around their fighters. Make no mistake, Hamas and other terrorists groups are willing to kill as many innocents as possible in order to achieve their goal. Countries waited too long in World War II and 80 million people died as a result. As in World War II, an unconditional surrender or complete elimination is needed. As I've pointed out, the population of Iran is large than the population of World War II Japan. Likewise it was the same with so many Godless communists, some who embraced by the American left, who tortured and starved to death so many. Biden never should have released billions to Iran but we must deal with the current situation.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I’m sorry but if a state needs to kill every one of its enemies to “survive”, maybe it would be better if that state didn’t exist anymore?

You just described every state that ever existed or will exist.
 
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Valletta

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Israel gets a pass because they’re threatened?

I’m sorry but if a state needs to kill every one of its enemies to “survive”, maybe it would be better if that state didn’t exist anymore?
It's like when the U.S. was attacked at Pearl Harbor, few people think the U.S. got a "pass."
 
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th1bill

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Israel gets a pass because they’re threatened?

I’m sorry but if a state needs to kill every one of its enemies to “survive”, maybe it would be better if that state didn’t exist anymore?
So you will murder the Hebrews and their infants? 'Nuff said!
 
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Pommer

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So you will murder the Hebrews and their infants? 'Nuff said!
A. “So’s law”
B. Don’t look for good guys in this war, there’s two sets of bad guys
C. The reason one “takes hostages” is to prove to people outside of the conflict that one’s enemies are “worse” should they end up killing their own people in an effort to kill one’s people. (This has happened, by the way).
 
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Pommer

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It's like when the U.S. was attacked at Pearl Harbor, few people think the U.S. got a "pass."
Did we end up committing a genocide against the people of Japan?
 
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essentialsaltes

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th1bill

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A. “So’s law”
B. Don’t look for good guys in this war, there’s two sets of bad guys
C. The reason one “takes hostages” is to prove to people outside of the conflict that one’s enemies are “worse” should they end up killing their own people in an effort to kill one’s people. (This has happened, by the way).
You dance poorly, sonny. Will you answer the question?
 
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