Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Pommer]

You dance poorly, sonny. Will you answer the question?

You were seriously asking?
i shan’t deign to answer such a leading question, thank you for your time.

 

[JosephZ]

UN Security Council adopts a cease-fire resolution aimed at ending Israel-Hamas war in Gaza

The U.N. Security Council on Monday approved its first resolution endorsing a cease-fire plan aimed at ending the eight-month war between Israel and Hamas in Gaza.

The U.S.-sponsored resolution welcomes a cease-fire proposal announced by President Joe Biden that the United States says Israel has accepted. It calls on the militant Palestinian group Hamas, which initially said it viewed the proposal “positively,” to accept the three-phase plan.

It urges Israel and Hamas “to fully implement its terms without delay and without condition.”

Biden’s May 31 announcement of the new cease-fire proposal said it would begin with an initial six-month cease-fire with the release of hostages in exchange for Palestinian prisoners, the withdrawal of Israeli forces from populated areas in Gaza and the return of Palestinian civilians to all areas in the territory.

Phase one also requires the safe distribution of humanitarian assistance “at scale throughout the Gaza Strip,” which Biden said would lead to 600 trucks with aid entering Gaza every day.

In phase two, the resolution says that with the agreement of Israel and Hamas, “a permanent end to hostilities, in exchange for the release of all other hostages still in Gaza, and a full withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza” will take place.

Phase three would launch “a major multi-year reconstruction plan for Gaza and the return of the remains of any deceased hostages still in Gaza to their families.”

The final draft of the resolution “underlines” that the proposal says if negotiations take longer than six weeks for the first phase, “the cease-fire will still continue as long as negotiations continue.” It welcomes “the readiness of the United States, Egypt and Qatar to work to ensure negotiations keep going until all the agreements are reached and phase two is able to begin.”

 

[essentialsaltes]

Death toll from Israeli hostage rescue adds to legal scrutiny of Gaza war​

The daytime raid in the Nuseirat refugee camp [in mid-Gaza, where many have fled, since the IDF told people to leave the south] freed four Israeli hostages and killed at least 274 Palestinians, according to the Gaza Health Ministry.

It was not clear how many of the dead were combatants, or how many were killed by Israeli fire, but they included “many” women and children, the Health Ministry said, as well as civilians recently displaced by Israel’s military offensive in the southern city of Rafah.
Eyewitnesses said they were shocked at the scale and intensity of the Israeli assault, even after eight months of punishing war, and the carnage overwhelmed Gaza’s broken hospital system.

The Israeli captives were held by Hamas under armed guard in the densely populated refugee camp, apparently in family homes, consistent with testimonies from former hostages released during a short-lived cease-fire in November. In this instance, and throughout the war, Israel has said militants are responsible for the deaths of innocents, a consequence of hiding prisoners and military infrastructure in civilian areas.

But Hamas’s tactics do not excuse Israel from legal culpability, according to experts in international law, which requires militaries to take all possible precautions to prevent civilian harm. The principle of proportionality prohibits armies from inflicting civilian casualties that are excessive in relation to the direct military advantage anticipated at the time of the strike.

“The foreseeable harm to civilians was disproportionate to the legitimate aim of rescuing the four hostages.”

How many civilians can you kill to free four civilians?

IDF officials said they only resorted to immense firepower when one of the rescue teams came under fire from Hamas, and after an Israeli officer had been injured in a gun battle with militants. He later died of his wounds.

How was that not going to happen? That wasn't really plan B; that was plan A all along.

 

[rjs330]

How many civilians can you kill to free four civilians?

As many as it takes if those civilians are participating in the hiding of terrorists and assisting them in the holding of hostages. I didn't read anything about how civilians came out and helped the IDF with locating the hostages or the terrorists.

IDF officials said they only resorted to immense firepower when one of the rescue teams came under fire from Hamas, and after an Israeli officer had been injured in a gun battle with militants. He later died of his wounds.

How was that not going to happen? That wasn't really plan B; that was plan A all along

I agree that this should be expected. Hamas has shown no desire to just give up hostages. That's probably why the IDF was prepared. I'm sure it was plan B. They would rather go in and rescue the hostages and take no casualties. Hamas surrenders them up and that's that. They tried and Hamas did what Hamas does with no consideration given to who might be harmed and Israel was prepared for that. And they should have been. Once again all the blame should be in Hamas and not Israel.

 

[rjs330]

UN Security Council adopts a cease-fire resolution aimed at ending Israel-Hamas war in Gaza

The U.N. Security Council on Monday approved its first resolution endorsing a cease-fire plan aimed at ending the eight-month war between Israel and Hamas in Gaza.

The U.S.-sponsored resolution welcomes a cease-fire proposal announced by President Joe Biden that the United States says Israel has accepted. It calls on the militant Palestinian group Hamas, which initially said it viewed the proposal “positively,” to accept the three-phase plan.

It urges Israel and Hamas “to fully implement its terms without delay and without condition.”

Biden’s May 31 announcement of the new cease-fire proposal said it would begin with an initial six-month cease-fire with the release of hostages in exchange for Palestinian prisoners, the withdrawal of Israeli forces from populated areas in Gaza and the return of Palestinian civilians to all areas in the territory.

Phase one also requires the safe distribution of humanitarian assistance “at scale throughout the Gaza Strip,” which Biden said would lead to 600 trucks with aid entering Gaza every day.

In phase two, the resolution says that with the agreement of Israel and Hamas, “a permanent end to hostilities, in exchange for the release of all other hostages still in Gaza, and a full withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza” will take place.

Phase three would launch “a major multi-year reconstruction plan for Gaza and the return of the remains of any deceased hostages still in Gaza to their families.”

The final draft of the resolution “underlines” that the proposal says if negotiations take longer than six weeks for the first phase, “the cease-fire will still continue as long as negotiations continue.” It welcomes “the readiness of the United States, Egypt and Qatar to work to ensure negotiations keep going until all the agreements are reached and phase two is able to begin.”

Who suspects Hamas violates the agreement as soon as possible?

 

[essentialsaltes]

As many as it takes if those civilians are participating in the hiding of terrorists and assisting them in the holding of hostages. I didn't read anything about how civilians came out and helped the IDF with locating the hostages or the terrorists.

Not-participating in a military rescue =/= participating in hostage-hiding.

But you're not alone in conflating all Gazans with Hamas as a means of justifying their killings.

 

[rjs330]

Not-participating in a military rescue =/= participating in hostage-hiding.

Yup. If you are hiding terrorists and/or hostages or know your neighbor is or tge neighbor down the street is and you do nothing. Then yes you are complicit.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Yup. If you are hiding terrorists and/or hostages or know your neighbor is or tge neighbor down the street is and you do nothing. Then yes you are complicit.

At least we can dispense with this "Israel works hard to prevent civilian casualties" in favor of "Israel can kill as many as it takes"

 

[Philip_B]

Yup. If you are hiding terrorists and/or hostages or know your neighbor is or tge neighbor down the street is and you do nothing. Then yes you are complicit.

This is a problematic answer. It assumes that you are in the right, regardless, some sort of apriori given established truth beyond argument or debate and that someone whose situation is entirely inverse of yours must see, understand and naturally conform to the world as you see it. This form of argument is at best arrogant at best, and flawed at the least. It may be based on some sort of implicit dualism that requires a world where everything is binomially good or bad. A former Prime Minister of Australia, Tony Abbott, finally abandoned such positions in dealing with Syria and concluded that the choice was between badder and badderer. It is inelegant, but sometimes it is the best we've got. Your expectation that the good citizens of Gaza should help and assist the people with tanks and assault rifles who are bombing, killing and injuring the families, friends and communities does not seem based in reality.

might does not equal right

 

[rjs330]

At least we can dispense with this "Israel works hard to prevent civilian casualties" in favor of "Israel can kill as many as it takes"

You can if you want to. Israel hasn't. Vivilians who hide and protect terrorists don't need to be protected. They are part of the terrorist support group.

 

[Desk trauma]

At least we can dispense with this "Israel works hard to prevent civilian casualties" in favor of "Israel can kill as many as it takes"

Anyone who runs is a VC Hamas supporter. Anyone who stands still is a well-disciplined VC Hamas supporter.

 

[Diamond72]

Did we end up committing a genocide against the people of Japan?

The claim is more people would have died if they did not end the war the way they did. So the intent was to save lives. Where do they find people willing to drop a bomb and kill that many people? Then after they kill all those people they make a hero out of them.

 

[Pommer]

The claim is more people would have died if they did not end the war the way they did. So the intent was to save lives. Where do they find people willing to drop a bomb and kill that many people? Then after they kill all those people they make a hero out of them.

The military (though told of the consequences of using such a device against a civilian population) didn’t think/know what kind of devastation was going to occur. Many regretted their decisions in later years.

 

[Diamond72]

didn’t think/know what kind of devastation was going to occur.

I refused to be involved in any of he war mongers affairs. But I could not be a full conscious objector because there may have been a time and place when we would not have had a choice. Look at afghanistan and Pakistan. We fight to liberate the people and then Biden gives it back to them like we never should have taken it in the first place.

 

[Philip_B]

I refused to be involved in any of he war mongers affairs. But I could not be a full conscious objector because there may have been a time and place when we would not have had a choice. Look at afghanistan and Pakistan. We fight to liberate the people and then Biden gives it back to them like we never should have taken it in the first place.

Is the world but a theatre for American Politics?

 

[Pommer]

I refused to be involved in any of he war mongers affairs. But I could not be a full conscious objector because there may have been a time and place when we would not have had a choice. Look at afghanistan and Pakistan. We fight to liberate the people and then Biden gives it back to them like we never should have taken it in the first place.

Who was President when Mike Pompeo negotiated with the Taliban and agreed to withdraw American forces by May 2021?

 

[Diamond72]

Who was President when Mike Pompao negotiated with the Taliban and agreed to withdraw American forces by May 2021?

Biden was elected president on nov 2020.

 

[Pommer]

Biden was elected president on nov 2020.

As part of the United States–Taliban deal, the Trump administration agreed to an initial reduction of US forces from 13,000 to 8,600 troops by July 2020, followed by a complete withdrawal by 1 May 2021, if the Taliban kept its commitments.

 

[JosephZ]

Yup. If you are hiding terrorists and/or hostages or know your neighbor is or tge neighbor down the street is and you do nothing. Then yes you are complicit.

That's an easy thing to say when you're living in the safe confines of the United States rather than an enclave controlled by terrorists where the fear of retribution is real or the government you would be reporting the terrorist to has been responsible for destroying your way of life, your home, and the deaths of your family members or friends.

 

[essentialsaltes]

U.S. punishes Israeli extremists accused of blocking, ransacking humanitarian aid for Gaza​

The Biden administration took the unusual step Friday of blacklisting a group of Israelis implicated in the looting and destruction of lifesaving humanitarian aid destined for Palestinians trapped in the Gaza Strip after eight months of brutal war.

It is only the second time in recent years the U.S. has punished Israeli groups for their violent and sometimes deadly actions against Palestinians.

Last year, the State Department announced it was barring U.S. entry to dozens of Jewish settlers who attacked Palestinian villagers in the West Bank, destroyed their properties and attempted to seize their land.

Several hundred Palestinians in the West Bank have been killed in recent months in these attacks and in Israeli military operations.

The latest U.S. measure targets a group known as Tzav 9, Hebrew for “Order 9,” a reference to call-up orders for Israeli reservists. U.S. officials say the group has ties to extremist Jewish settlers in West Bank settlements.

“They also have damaged aid trucks and dumped life-saving humanitarian aid onto the road.” They have also burned aid trucks, he said.

The State Department also called out the Israeli government, noting it was Israel’s “responsibility to ensure the safety and security of humanitarian convoys transiting Israel and the West Bank.”