Israel-Hamas Thread II

[JosephZ]

I wonder how many of those are Hamas.....since the HAMAS ministry of health does not categorize the dead as civilian or terrorist.

The health ministry in Gaza says 70% of the deaths have been women and children. If this is correct, then the number of Hamas fighters killed would be fewer than 10,000 based on the health ministry's count of just over 30,000 deaths. With not all men being members of Hamas, the number would be far less than 10,000.

 

[Philip_B]

Part of the problem is that the ongoing campaign has now created a circumstance where it would be hard for any person (human being) who by accident of birth was born Palestinian could in any sense countenance what Israel (IDF) was doing to their friends, colleagues, neighbours and friends as reasonable and acceptable. A number of the issues go back a hundred years when the Palestinians were dealt with in a duplicitous manner (read about Lawrence of Arabia) and the circumstances in 1948 compounded that. The UN Security Council Resolution 242 (Resolution 242) does not even mention the Palestinians who were just ignored out of existence. There is no Peace without Justice. Western Nations have consistently played in the Middle East to advance their interests, without regard for the needs and interests of those who live there.

I deplore the taking of hostages, and I believe it was unreasonable and unacceptable and condemn it. I am a long way from convinced that what is happening now is a solution for anyone. For the Palestinians, it seems like obliteration, and for Israel, it seems like the absolute denial of their own humanity tradition faith and culture.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Please excuse the extreme plagiarism I am about to commit:
Part of the problem is that the ongoing campaign has now created a circumstance where it would be hard for any person (human being) who by accident of birth was born/converted Jewish/Christian could in any sense countenance what Hamas (and associated terrorist groups) was doing to their friends, colleagues, neighbours on October 7th as reasonable and acceptable.

Unfortunately there are many people, some claiming to be Christian, who do exactly that on a daily basis. We see their handiwork on threads like this every day.

As I have pointed out on several occasions on this thread (and so far no one have even attempted to dispute it) the Gazans can bring this war to a swift end by turning on Hamas and associates and pointing them out to the IDF as well as tunnel entrances, weapon storage facilities, and warn of ambushes and attacks and the like. But so far the Gazans seem to be content with suffering civilian casualties so long as the media, propagandists and terrorist supporters (like some that have appeared on this thread) can get the world to accept that all this death and destruction can be laid at the doorstep of Israel.

 

[JosephZ]

As I have pointed out on several occasions on this thread (and so far no one have even attempted to dispute it) the Gazans can bring this war to a swift end by turning on Hamas and associates and pointing them out to the IDF as well as tunnel entrances, weapon storage facilities, and warn of ambushes and attacks and the like.

I explained to you back in November why Gazans can't turn on Hamas.

Last month in another thread, I gave my opinion on why Hamas has been allowed to stay in power. It can be found here. Since that thread has been closed and I can't quote it, I will post it again.


"Based on my personal experience and observations while working in communities where terrorists have established themselves and their terrorist activities go unchallenged by the people living in these communities, there are a couple of reasons I can think of as to why Palestinians wouldn't want to get involved in, or cooperate with authorities in exposing Hamas terrorists. For one, Palestinians in Gaza live in an environment where turning against Hamas could pose significant risks to their lives, livelihoods, and families. They allow Hamas to operate in Gaza mostly because they are afraid that if they refuse, they will be its next victims. Another reason is that most Palestinians in Gaza are too busy struggling to survive from day to day to concern themselves with Hamas. They have enough problems already.

I can guarantee you that if Hamas is ever eliminated in Gaza, the Palestinians will be celebrating in the streets."

I mentioned this again in January.

Palestinians in Gaza live in an environment where turning against Hamas could pose significant risks to their lives, livelihoods, and families. They allow Hamas to operate in Gaza mostly because they are afraid that if they refuse, they will be its next victims. Another reason Hamas goes unopposed is because most Palestinians in Gaza are too busy struggling to survive from day to day to concern themselves with Hamas.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Please excuse the extreme plagiarism I am about to commit:
Part of the problem is that the ongoing campaign has now created a circumstance where it would be hard for any person (human being) who by accident of birth was born/converted Jewish/Christian could in any sense countenance what Hamas (and associated terrorist groups) was doing to their friends, colleagues, neighbours on October 7th as reasonable and acceptable.

Unfortunately there are many people, some claiming to be Christian, who do exactly that on a daily basis. We see their handiwork on threads like this every day.

Show us. I doubt you can show us anyone supporting the Hamas terror attack on Israel in threads like this "on a daily basis".

 

[essentialsaltes]

Enough of this malarkey.

Biden announces US airdrops of humanitarian assistance into Gaza​

ENOUGH OF THIS MALARKEY

Biden will announce US plans to establish a port in Gaza to deliver aid in his State of the Union speech​

“Tonight in the speech, the President will announce that he's directing the US military to lead an emergency mission to establish a port in the Mediterranean on the Gaza coast that can receive large ships carrying food, water medicine, and temporary shelters,” a senior administration official said Thursday.

The port will include a temporary pier, a second senior official said, which “will provide the capacity for hundreds of additional truckloads of assistance each day” to be coordinated with Israel, the United Nations, and humanitarian nongovernmental organizations. Initial aid shipments will come via Cyprus, the official said.

 

[Philip_B]

ENOUGH OF THIS MALARKEY

Biden will announce US plans to establish a port in Gaza to deliver aid in his State of the Union speech​

“Tonight in the speech, the President will announce that he's directing the US military to lead an emergency mission to establish a port in the Mediterranean on the Gaza coast that can receive large ships carrying food, water medicine, and temporary shelters,” a senior administration official said Thursday.

The port will include a temporary pier, a second senior official said, which “will provide the capacity for hundreds of additional truckloads of assistance each day” to be coordinated with Israel, the United Nations, and humanitarian nongovernmental organizations. Initial aid shipments will come via Cyprus, the official said.

U.S. Aid to Israel in Four Charts

 

[Desk trauma]

ENOUGH OF THIS MALARKEY

Biden will announce US plans to establish a port in Gaza to deliver aid in his State of the Union speech​

“Tonight in the speech, the President will announce that he's directing the US military to lead an emergency mission to establish a port in the Mediterranean on the Gaza coast that can receive large ships carrying food, water medicine, and temporary shelters,” a senior administration official said Thursday.

The port will include a temporary pier, a second senior official said, which “will provide the capacity for hundreds of additional truckloads of assistance each day” to be coordinated with Israel, the United Nations, and humanitarian nongovernmental organizations. Initial aid shipments will come via Cyprus, the official said.

Well that has disastrous potential.

 

[Vanellus]

CNN report showing starving children in Gaza.

Starving the people of Gaza was Israel's declared intent early in the conflict.
The brutality and inhumanity of Israel’s assault on Gaza is no surprise. It’s just what was promised | Owen Jones

Yoav Gallant, the minister of defence, was a repeat offender. On 9 October, in an unashamed commitment to collective punishment, he declared Israel was imposing a “complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” he said. “We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”

 

[Valletta]

"We can't leave a quarter of the Hamas terror army in place. They're there in Rafah. This would be equivalent to saying, you know, after the Allies fought back, gone through Normandy, went through Germany, and you'd say, well, we'll leave a quarter of the Nazi army in place and we won't go into Berlin, the last stronghold."

'It's either Israel or Hamas': Netanyahu defends planned assault on Rafah

Netanyahu dismissed the objections of President Joe Biden and other world leaders over the fate of the southern Gaza city of Rafah.

www.yahoo.com

 

[Valletta]

Biden repeated the claim that “30,000 Palestinians have been killed, most of them civilians, including thousands of children.” The president of the United States now not only rejects the claims of our allies in Israel but accepts the declarations of a group that is not only on the Justice Department’s terror list — one that recently murdered, raped, and kidnapped American citizens.

Biden Is Knowingly Spreading Hamas Propaganda

Joe Biden rejects the claims of Israel but repeats the ones of those who murdered, raped, and kidnapped Americans.

thefederalist.com

 

[JosephZ]

Biden repeated the claim that “30,000 Palestinians have been killed, most of them civilians, including thousands of children.” The president of the United States now not only rejects the claims of our allies in Israel but accepts the declarations of a group that is not only on the Justice Department’s terror list — one that recently murdered, raped, and kidnapped American citizens.

Biden Is Knowingly Spreading Hamas Propaganda

Joe Biden rejects the claims of Israel but repeats the ones of those who murdered, raped, and kidnapped Americans.

thefederalist.com

Netanyahu says at least 13,000 Hamas militants have been killed. The IDF has said that for every Hamas fighter killed, two civilians are killed. Using Israel's estimates, the total number of Palestinians killed would be around 39,000, most of whom would be civilians, including thousands of children.

Netanyahu says at least 13,000 'terrorists' among Palestinians killed
IDF officials: 2 civilian deaths for every 1 Hamas fighter killed in Gaza

BTW, The Federalist is a garbage source:

Overall, we rate The Federalist Questionable and far-Right Biased based on story selection and editorial positions that always favor the right and promotion of propaganda, conspiracy theories, and numerous failed fact checks.

The Federalist - Bias and Credibility

QUESTIONABLE SOURCE A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no

mediabiasfactcheck.com

 

[Valletta]

Netanyahu says at least 13,000 Hamas militants have been killed. The IDF has said that for every Hamas fighter killed, two civilians are killed. Using Israel's estimates, the total number of Palestinians killed would be around 39,000, most of whom would be civilians, including thousands of children.

Netanyahu says at least 13,000 'terrorists' among Palestinians killed
IDF officials: 2 civilian deaths for every 1 Hamas fighter killed in Gaza

BTW, The Federalist is a garbage source:

Overall, we rate The Federalist Questionable and far-Right Biased based on story selection and editorial positions that always favor the right and promotion of propaganda, conspiracy theories, and numerous failed fact checks.

The Federalist - Bias and Credibility

QUESTIONABLE SOURCE A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no

mediabiasfactcheck.com

Why do you keep spouting Hamas propaganda? Here is my evaluation:

"Hamas is a completely unreliable source. While having a history of begging for aid they used donated resources to launch their barbaric campaign to first exterminate every Jew, then Christian. They have put out propaganda statements that have time and time again been proven to be false."

What those who have vilified Israel need to do is to call out Hamas for cowardly using Palestinian civilians to hide behind. Urge Palestinians to expose Hamas positions to end their butchery.

 

[JosephZ]

Why do you keep spouting Hamas propaganda?

The estimate I gave was based on information provided by Netanyahu and the IDF, not Hamas. In early December, the IDF estimated the death toll in Gaza to be at least 15,000, with 10,000 being civilians after just two months of fighting, so an estimate of 39,000 three months later is a reasonable number.


Reports citing anonymous Israeli officials in both AP and AFP say that the IDF believes the overall Gaza death toll claimed by Hamas is fairly accurate, and that more civilians have been killed than Hamas operatives. The comments appeared to emerge from an off-record briefing for foreign journalists conducted by military officials.

An unnamed IDF official cited by AP says that at least 15,000 Palestinians in Gaza have died since the outbreak of the war on October 7. The army says it estimates more than 5,000 of the Gaza deaths to be Hamas terrorists.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officials-15000-likely-killed-in-gaza-since-start-of-war-5000-of-them-are-hamas/

 

[Valletta]

The estimate I gave was based on information provided by Netanyahu and the IDF, not Hamas. In early December, the IDF estimated the death toll in Gaza to be at least 15,000, with 10,000 being civilians after just two months of fighting, so an estimate of 39,000 three months later is a reasonable number.


Reports citing anonymous Israeli officials in both AP and AFP say that the IDF believes the overall Gaza death toll claimed by Hamas is fairly accurate, and that more civilians have been killed than Hamas operatives. The comments appeared to emerge from an off-record briefing for foreign journalists conducted by military officials.

An unnamed IDF official cited by AP says that at least 15,000 Palestinians in Gaza have died since the outbreak of the war on October 7. The army says it estimates more than 5,000 of the Gaza deaths to be Hamas terrorists.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officials-15000-likely-killed-in-gaza-since-start-of-war-5000-of-them-are-hamas/

Hamas is responsible for civilian deaths. As I said, those who have vilified Israel need to do is to call out Hamas for cowardly using Palestinian civilians to hide behind.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Show us. I doubt you can show us anyone supporting the Hamas terror attack on Israel in threads like this "on a daily basis".

You should read your own threads for starters.......Hamas apologists thrive here. Unfortunately because of forum rules I cannot 'call them out' from other threads. I have challenged them on this thread many times as an example.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I explained to you back in November why Gazans can't turn on Hamas.

No, you have made excuses for them....big difference. "Oh, Hamas will kill their families." So it is better they die from Israeli bombs?....bombs that are seeking Hamas who, BTW, simply hide behind these same families to cause casualties that they can then trumpet to the world as 'genocide' committed by Israel.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Well that has disastrous potential.

Yep.....naval drone.....Terrorists: 1, U.S.: 0

 

[Vanellus]

You should read your own threads for starters.......Hamas apologists thrive here. Unfortunately because of forum rules I cannot 'call them out' from other threads. I have challenged them on this thread many times as an example.

Hopefully we all read our own threads and posts before posting. Note that "reading your own thread" is not the same as agreeing with civilwarbuff. As for "Hamas apologists" that is an insulting assertion presented with zero evidence, but without naming anyone = unnecessarily divisive. One could also say there are many apologists for genocide here but where would that trading of labels get us?

 

[Vanellus]

No, you have made excuses for them....big difference. "Oh, Hamas will kill their families." So it is better they die from Israeli bombs?....bombs that are seeking Hamas who, BTW, simply hide behind these same families to cause casualties that they can then trumpet to the world as 'genocide' committed by Israel.

You have been told repeatedly that the Israeli leadership have stated they want the complete destruction of Gaza and its people and the visible evidence is there to be seen. Please read all of

The brutality and inhumanity of Israel’s assault on Gaza is no surprise. It’s just what was promised | Owen Jones

before replying to this post.