Israel-Hamas Thread II

[o_mlly]

Bringing to justice the particular people who committed the atrocities.

The above suggest you are you categorizing this as an Israeli police action ...

I affirm Israel has a right and a need to defend itself and its people ...

... or as a war between two political entities?

If a police action then all those who aid and abet the criminals in their effort to avoid capture are subject to sanctions.

If a war between two political entities (which I think is how most would describe the action) then the rules of war fare apply. Which rules have the Gaza Palestinians broken beyond a reasonable doubt? Which rules have the IDF broken beyond a reasonable doubt?

The events of October 7 are deplorable. Do I deplore them? Absolutely! It does seem to me that the sign on the fence says 'Don't poke the bear'. Anyone contemplating the actions would have seen that Israel would respond with lethal force. Rationally this would never be a good outcome for the people of the Gaza Strip. This is a very small strip of land - 365 sq km. Rhode Island, the smallest State in the US is 3,144 sq km, and New York City is 784 sq km. Surely there are better solutions.

What better solutions than waging a just war ought Israel consider?

Or perhaps we could get some better intelligence and understand what is happening and why. I believe that there is a lot of complexity and that this is not about 3 months but rather 3000 years of history if not longer. Over-simplifying this will only exacerbate the issues. Every one of these people involved here are persons with real human stories, made in the image and after the likeness of God. Jews, Muslims, Christians, Atheists, and everybody else as well.

Do you not think Satan is at work here? Palestinian hate seems to be the fuel driving the conflict.

Yes, we are all made in the image of God. The faculties that make us so are reason and free will. Hate, unlike love, is an irrational emotion. Love is an act of reason -- willing good for the other. How would you move the Palestinians from an evil emotion to a rational good?

 

[Bradskii]

How would you move the Palestinians from an evil emotion to a rational good?

How easy is that to answer...

Two-state solution | Meaning, Map, Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, & Borders | Britannica

The two-state solution is a proposed framework for resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict by establishing two states for two peoples: Israel for the Jewish people and Palestine for the Palestinian people.

www.britannica.com

 

[Philip_B]

ehhh.....you might want to reconsider that statement.....
peace /pēs/

noun​

1. The absence of war or other hostilities.
2. An agreement or a treaty to end hostilities.
   "negotiated the peace."
3. Freedom from quarrels and disagreement; harmonious relations.
   "roommates living in peace with each other."

Given the passages in Isaiah and the New Testament understanding of Jesus as Prince of Peace, we are surely called for a deeper understanding of Peace than the absence of conflict. I would want to suggest that it is a positive and purposeful environment where people may be nurtured and enabled to grow and flourish.

The Fruits of the Spirit are Love, Joy Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Gentleness, Self Control, and Faithfulness.

 

[Philip_B]

How would you move the Palestinians from an evil emotion to a rational good?

How have you moved from Hamas to all Palestinians? I put it to you that has happened as a result of Israels response.

 

[rjs330]

If you eliminate all your adversaries, that does not give you peace, all it gives you is an absence of conflict.

Isn't that what peace is? What's peace in your view?

 

[rjs330]

Given the passages in Isaiah and the New Testament understanding of Jesus as Prince of Peace, we are surely called for a deeper understanding of Peace than the absence of conflict. I would want to suggest that it is a positive and purposeful environment where people may be nurtured and enabled to grow and flourish.

The Fruits of the Spirit are Love, Joy Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Gentleness, Self Control, and Faithfulness.

I certainly applaud your spiritual understanding of peace. If the Palestinians had peace they wouldn't feel the need to attack Israel every week.

We forget often that we believers have a different standard we live by than how the world lives because we have the Spirit in us. The world has the spirit of the Prince of darkness in them. So worldly oeac is quite a different thing. And since we cannot force everyone to become a believer we can at least have an understanding that there are other principles at play for everyone else.

And one of those is peace in the world. Which is usually garnered through the legitimate use of force and kept by the threat of force.

And I understand the world we live in while I also live in the spiritual world and try and live my own life by those standards.

 

[rjs330]

How easy is that to answer...

Two-state solution | Meaning, Map, Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, & Borders | Britannica

The two-state solution is a proposed framework for resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict by establishing two states for two peoples: Israel for the Jewish people and Palestine for the Palestinian people.

www.britannica.com

Except they've rejected it every time.

 

[Philip_B]

Except they've rejected it every time.

Right back to 1948. Some of the problem may be the arrogance of the West in thinking we know what is best for others. The past 150 years have shown us that we have no idea how to do anything in the Middle East except make things worse.

 

[wing2000]

Hamas on Tuesday accused Israel of killing Saleh al-Arouri, a top leader of the group, along with two commanders from its armed wing, the Qassam Brigades. Mr. al-Arouri is the senior-most Hamas figure to be killed since Israel vowed to destroy the organization and eliminate its leadership after a deadly Hamas-led attack on Oct. 7.

Mr. al-Arouri was assassinated in an explosion in a suburb of Beirut, Lebanon’s capital, marking the first such assassination of a top Hamas official outside the West Bank and Gaza in recent years.
....
Mr. al-Arouri played a key role in Hamas’s relationships with its regional allies and in increasing Hamas’s military capabilities, according to regional and Western officials. A longtime Hamas operative, he was one of the founders of the group’s armed wing and was linked to a number of attacks on Israeli civilians, including the kidnapping and killing of three teenagers in the West Bank in 2014, which he called a “heroic operation.”

Top Hamas Official Is Killed in Lebanon as Fears Grow of a Wider War

The Israeli government would not comment on the death of Saleh al-Arouri. But a U.S. official said to expect Israel to assassinate Hamas officials “for years.”

www.nytimes.com

 

[wing2000]

The Israeli military said on Monday that it would begin withdrawing several thousand troops from the Gaza Strip at least temporarily, in what was the most significant publicly announced reduction since the war with Hamas began.

The military cited a growing toll on the Israeli economy after nearly three months of wartime mobilization with little end in sight to the fighting.

Reservists from at least two brigades will be sent home this week, the Israeli military said in a statement, and three brigades will be taken back for “scheduled” training. Brigades vary in size, up to roughly 4,000 troops, and the Israeli military does not disclose how many troops it has deployed in Gaza, so it was unclear how many would remain.

“This move is expected to significantly alleviate economic burdens and enable them to gather strength for upcoming activities in the next year,” the military said.

Israel Says It Will Pull Several Brigades From Gaza Strip

Analysts say the announcement could signal a shift to the more limited and targeted war against Hamas that the United States has been urging.

www.nytimes.com

 

[civilwarbuff]

All hamas supporters and propagandists can pass on this; I hate to be responsible for bursting your bubble......

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/01/02/hamas-intelligence-shifa-biden-hostages-israel/4677f2a4-a9f2-11ee-bc8c-7319480da4f9_story.html

 

[o_mlly]

Given the passages in Isaiah and the New Testament understanding of Jesus as Prince of Peace, we are surely called for a deeper understanding of Peace than the absence of conflict. I would want to suggest that it is a positive and purposeful environment where people may be nurtured and enabled to grow and flourish.

The Fruits of the Spirit are Love, Joy Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Gentleness, Self Control, and Faithfulness.

To enjoy HIs fruits, one must first freely accept His gifts: wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord.

 

[o_mlly]

How have you moved from Hamas to all Palestinians? I put it to you that has happened as a result of Israels response.

I think not. Hamas is to the Gaza Palestinians as the Nazis were to Germany: duly elected as the governing entity. The Palestinians and the Germans freely gave political power to criminal organizations. The election of Hamas in Gaza occurred in 2006, long before the present conflict.

As to the Gaza Palestinians who now would distance themselves from Hamas, they have an obligation to support Israel in its objective to destroy Hamas: "Whoever is not with me is against me" (Luke 11:23).

 

[o_mlly]

How easy is that to answer...

In 1988, the UN recognized the Palestinian territories as an independent state. Western nations did not accept the UN declaration, but the declaration gave the Palestinians at least a de facto state. Did that stop the hate? The "River to Sea" chant would indicate the answer is: No.

 

[wing2000]

I think not. Hamas is to the Gaza Palestinians as the Nazis were to Germany: duly elected as the governing entity. The Palestinians and the Germans freely gave political power to criminal organizations. The election of Hamas in Gaza occurred in 2006, long before the present conflict.

I think this comparison (invalid IMO), has been discussed several times already in this thread. Supporting Hamas has not been a "free" option without severe consequences for several years now.

As to the Gaza Palestinians who now would distance themselves from Hamas, they have an obligation to support Israel in its objective to destroy Hamas: "Whoever is not with me is against me" (Luke 11:23).

I'm not sure you'll want to start quoting Jesus. Something about loving ones enemies and condemning those who harm the least of those among us.

 

[durangodawood]

As to the Gaza Palestinians who now would distance themselves from Hamas, they have an obligation to support Israel in its objective to destroy Hamas: "Whoever is not with me is against me" (Luke 11:23).

Arent the Jews, notably, "not with me"?

 

[o_mlly]

I think this comparison (invalid IMO), has been discussed several times already in this thread. Supporting Hamas has not been a "free" option without severe consequences for several years now.

I think the Palestinian's election of Hamas to rule in Gaza has caused Israel "severe consequences" as well. But that is not the issue. The issue is: Who is primarily responsible to remove Hamas and end its evil regime? Confronting evil is never "free". It takes the courage to accept the hazards and risks of doing so.

I'm not sure you'll want to start quoting Jesus. Something about loving ones enemies and condemning those who harm the least of those among us.

One should aways be comfortable quoting Jesus when applicable.

Loving one's enemies means willing the good for them. It does not mean allowing the evil that they do to persist. Were the money changers in the Temple Jesus' enemies? No. Did he forcefully end their evil acts? Yes. Was it good for the money changers to desist from their evil acts? Yes.

Arent the Jews, notably, "not with me"?

Those who do the Father's will are with Him (Matthew 12:48-50).

 

[wing2000]

Those who do the Father's will are with Him (Matthew 12:48-50).

Is it the "Father's will" to kill over 1200 Israelis and 20k Palestinians? Or is it the will of men.....

 

[wing2000]

One should aways be comfortable quoting Jesus when applicable.

"Whoever is not with me is against me" (Luke 11:23).

I propose anyone who has undermined the peace between Israel and the Palestinians is against the will of God. Jesus instructed, "Blessed are the Peacemakers, for theirs is the Kingdom of God.

 

[o_mlly]

Is it the "Father's will" to kill over 1200 Israelis and 20k Palestinians? Or is it the will of men.....

Does the Father will that those who are given the power to do so protect the ones entrusted to them?