Israel-Hamas Thread II

[essentialsaltes]

‘Do You Have Another Solution?’ Israeli Ambassador to the UK Gives Stunning Response When Interviewer Says She Made Case for ‘Destroying the Whole of Gaza’​

Ambassador Hotovely]: One of the things we realized – that every school, every mosque, every second house has an access to [a] [Hamas] tunnel. So this is– and of course– and ammunition.

DALE: But that’s an argument for destroying the whole of Gaza — every single building in there.

HOTOVELY: So, do you have another solution

It must be such a relief knowing that everything in Gaza is a legitimate target; there's no way to make mistakes!

 

[Pommer]

Where is your evidence the IDF has murdered anyone? The general prosecution of war is not murder, regardless of who is being killed. Hamas absolutely murdered innocent people.

Could murder take place during a prosecution of war? Certainly if a soldier deliberately points a gun at an obviously innocent civilian and shoots them for the reasons any murderer would kill someone.

But you haven't provided any evidence of that taking place by the IDF. You have no evidence that the IDF deliberately murdered people. Dropping bombs on suspected enemy emplacements is not murder.

They’ve killed their own people (Hamas hostages).

 

[Michael Snow]

Demonic massacre The Rise of Demonic Spirits

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.​

 

[Pommer]

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.​

Just about, yup.

 

[rjs330]

‘Do You Have Another Solution?’ Israeli Ambassador to the UK Gives Stunning Response When Interviewer Says She Made Case for ‘Destroying the Whole of Gaza’​

Ambassador Hotovely]: One of the things we realized – that every school, every mosque, every second house has an access to [a] [Hamas] tunnel. So this is– and of course– and ammunition.

DALE: But that’s an argument for destroying the whole of Gaza — every single building in there.

HOTOVELY: So, do you have another solution

It must be such a relief knowing that everything in Gaza is a legitimate target; there's no way to make mistakes!

Its true. If we know this then everything listed IS a legitimate military target. Everything Hamas related is.

 

[rjs330]

They’ve killed their own people (Hamas hostages).

From your own article.

Dec 15 (Reuters) - The Israeli military mistakenly killed three hostages being held in Gaza by Hamas during an incident which is "under review", a military spokesperson said on Friday.

The military said the hostages were killed during combat with militants in Gaza and expressed its condolences to the families while saying there would be "full transparency" in the investigation into the incident.

A statement from the military said that during an intense battle in Gaza it "identified three Israeli hostages as a threat". "As a result, the troops fired toward them and they were killed."

That is not murder. That happened during a battle and apparently was a mistake by some soldiers. That's hardly a murder.

 

[Pommer]

From your own article.

Dec 15 (Reuters) - The Israeli military mistakenly killed three hostages being held in Gaza by Hamas during an incident which is "under review", a military spokesperson said on Friday.

The military said the hostages were killed during combat with militants in Gaza and expressed its condolences to the families while saying there would be "full transparency" in the investigation into the incident.

A statement from the military said that during an intense battle in Gaza it "identified three Israeli hostages as a threat". "As a result, the troops fired toward them and they were killed."

That is not murder. That happened during a battle and apparently was a mistake by some soldiers. That's hardly a murder.

They killed Israelis.
Of course it does kind of send the message that it doesn’t matter if Hamas takes hostages since their own people are liable to kill them anyways (so why even have them)?

 

[Philip_B]

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.​

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius. - Wikipedia.

The historical background of the Latin phrase you use here will perhaps help readers understand. It is really in the foundation of temporal understanding of the Kingdom of God, rooted in power and politics, which leaves the Church indistinguishable from the Kingdoms of this world. More generally today we would understand the Kingdom of God as a matter of hearts and minds, for Christ did not come with a marauding army, but rather in a manger, and his true power is seen in the ushering and uttering of forgiveness from the cross.

 

[rjs330]

They killed Israelis.
Of course it does kind of send the message that it doesn’t matter if Hamas takes hostages since their own people are liable to kill them anyways (so why even have them)?

Good question. But it's still not murder.

 

[Valletta]

They killed Israelis.
Of course it does kind of send the message that it doesn’t matter if Hamas takes hostages since their own people are liable to kill them anyways (so why even have them)?

The vast majority of people understand that there is risk in trying to free hostages and that hostages do sometimes end up dying.

 

[Philip_B]

The vast majority of people understand that there is risk in trying to free hostages and that hostages do sometimes end up dying.

Of course that is an entirely reasonable proposition. The three hostages were carrying a makeshift white flag and were bare-chested it was clear they were not carrying explosives, and approaching the IDF personnel. They were shot and able to be identified post-mortem as Israeli hostages who had escaped their captors. You might want to describe this as friendly fire, just part of the acceptable risk profile, but it is more than that. Had three Palestinians been wanting to surrender to the IDF who were shot in this situation it would have been considered a war crime. This is not a case of a stray bullet caught in the crossfire. I do make the assumption that the IDF forces did not think they were hostages until after they had shot them.

 

[Valletta]

Of course that is an entirely reasonable proposition. The three hostages were carrying a makeshift white flag and were bare-chested it was clear they were not carrying explosives, and approaching the IDF personnel. They were shot and able to be identified post-mortem as Israeli hostages who had escaped their captors. You might want to describe this as friendly fire, just part of the acceptable risk profile, but it is more than that. Had three Palestinians been wanting to surrender to the IDF who were shot in this situation it would have been considered a war crime. This is not a case of a stray bullet caught in the crossfire. I do make the assumption that the IDF forces did not think they were hostages until after they had shot them.

Leave the judging to Jesus rather than trying to find fault with others. Situations under heavy fire can be difficult and you yourself may have done the same thing in a similar situation. When dealing with jihadists hesitation could get your comrades killed.

 

[Bradskii]

Leave the judging to Jesus rather than trying to find fault with others. Situations under heavy fire can be difficult and you yourself may have done the same thing in a similar situation. When dealing with jihadists hesitation could get your comrades killed.

The point still stands. They shot unarmed people carrying a white flag. It was a criminal act whatever the nationality of the victims. Whoever made the shot needs to be brought to justice.

And what is the response? Don't look to find fault? Just...what?

 

[Valletta]

The point still stands. They shot unarmed people carrying a white flag. It was a criminal act whatever the nationality of the victims. Whoever made the shot needs to be brought to justice.

And what is the response? Don't look to find fault? Just...what?

False. If someone has a small flag on their person and they get shot in the middle of a battle it is a tragedy, but not a crime if a soldier does not know that person is surrendering. The slaughter of innocent Jews was one of the most horrible and cowardly massacres in modern history, and those who support Hamas should be held accountable as well.

 

[Bradskii]

False. If someone has a small flag on their person and they get shot in the middle of a battle it is a tragedy, but not a crime if a soldier does not know that person is surrendering.

What in heaven's name could possibly be a reason for shooting obviously unarmed people carrying a white flag? We all know that if a Palestinian had shot a couple of Israelis in exactly the same situation that you would not, in any way whatsoever, be excusing it. You'd be demanding justice.

Anything a Palestinian does is wrong and everything the Israelis do is right and justifiably so. Your bias is so extreme it's painfully illogical.

 

[Valletta]

What in heaven's name could possibly be a reason for shooting obviously unarmed people carrying a white flag? We all know that if a Palestinian had shot a couple of Israelis in exactly the same situation that you would not, in any way whatsoever, be excusing it. You'd be demanding justice.

Anything a Palestinian does is wrong and everything the Israelis do is right and justifiably so. Your bias is so extreme it's painfully illogical.

Heat of battle, no one said the soldiers saw the flag or saw that anyone was trying to surrender.

 

[Bradskii]

Heat of battle, no one said the soldiers saw the flag or saw that anyone was trying to surrender.

Again, just making excuses. Which you would never do if the situation was reversed. You won't admit that they were wrong when even the IDF admits it.

From here:

IDF mistakenly killed 3 Israeli hostages in Gaza. This is what we know so far.

Three hostages, presumed to have escaped or been abandoned by Hamas, had a white flag with them when they were killed Friday.

www.nbcnews.com

'Lt. Gen. Herzi Halevi said Saturday the killing of three Israeli hostages was “a difficult and painful event.”

“I think the three hostages did everything possible so that we would understand — they moved around shirtless so that we wouldn’t suspect them of carrying explosives and they held a white cloth, but the tension overcame all of the above,” Halevi continued, adding “the shooting at the hostages was against the rules of engagement” and that it is “forbidden to shoot at someone who raises a white flag and seeks to surrender.”

 

[Valletta]

Again, just making excuses. Which you would never do if the situation was reversed. You won't admit that they were wrong when even the IDF admits it.

From here:

IDF mistakenly killed 3 Israeli hostages in Gaza. This is what we know so far.

Three hostages, presumed to have escaped or been abandoned by Hamas, had a white flag with them when they were killed Friday.

www.nbcnews.com

'Lt. Gen. Herzi Halevi said Saturday the killing of three Israeli hostages was “a difficult and painful event.”

“I think the three hostages did everything possible so that we would understand — they moved around shirtless so that we wouldn’t suspect them of carrying explosives and they held a white cloth, but the tension overcame all of the above,” Halevi continued, adding “the shooting at the hostages was against the rules of engagement” and that it is “forbidden to shoot at someone who raises a white flag and seeks to surrender.”

I don't know if this general was a witness or not, and NBC is doing the reporting. Certainly every eye-witnesses should be interviewed and it should be determined whether any charges are warranted. Split second decisions are made in battle, and no one should presume someone is guilty.

 

[Bradskii]

I don't know if this general was a witness or not, and NBC is doing the reporting. Certainly every eye-witnesses should be interviewed and it should be determined whether any charges are warranted.

It's already been determined that 'the shooting at the hostages was against the rules of engagement”

And if you don't like NBC then how about the Times of Israel: https://www.timesofisrael.com/parents-of-3-hostages-mistakenly-killed-by-idf-hold-first-meeting/

'The details from the probe, released by the Israel Defense Forces in December, were the latest indication of how far hostages Shamriz, Haim, and Talalka went to signal their identities to the military after they managed to escape captivity. The IDF said the three approached troops shirtless, waving a white banner and with their hands up, but the soldiers nonetheless opened fire on them.