Israel-Hamas Thread II

[wing2000]

Does the Father will that those who are given the power to do so protect the ones entrusted to them?

I expect so. I also expect that power should be used to minimize the loss of life and not as an excuse to write off all Palestinians as deserving of death....which is the feeling I get from reading some posts here....

 

[durangodawood]

....
Those who do the Father's will are with Him (Matthew 12:48-50).

So its not the Father's will that we recognize Jesus as Lord and Son of God? Jesus pointed to his disciples as he said that in Matthew. Jews are generally not his disciples, but youre saying they are doing His will and so are with Him. Is there an alternative path to be with God that doesnt involve Jesus?

Im not trying to poke holes in the Bible. Im just very skeptical when people excerpt individual lines seemingly out of context to support this or that position in contemporary events.

 

[o_mlly]

I expect so. I also expect that power should be used to minimize the loss of life and not as an excuse to write off all Palestinians as deserving of death....which is the feeling I get from reading some posts here....

Your feeling is unsubstantiated. No one has written that all Palestinians deserve to be killed in this conflict. If we agree that Israel is prosecuting a just war of self-defense then we also agree that Isarel has an obligation to minimize the loss of innocent lives -- Palestinian and Israeli.

 

[o_mlly]

So its not the Father's will that we recognize Jesus as Lord and Son of God? Jesus pointed to his disciples as he said that in Matthew. Jews are generally not his disciples, but youre saying they are doing His will and so are with Him. Is there an alternative path to be with God that doesnt involve Jesus?

Im not trying to poke holes in the Bible. Im just very skeptical when people excerpt individual lines seemingly out of context to support this or that position in contemporary events.

"Jews are generally not his disciples"? All of Jesus disciples were Jews. In its early days, Christians were considered as another sect of Judaism.

Christians believe the ordinary way for men to come to salvation is through His Church. We cannot limit God and so also believe He may have extraordinary ways for men to come to Him. He meets us where He finds us.

I, as well, do not like playing "Bible-bingo". Someone quoted Scripture as supporting their argument and I responded. However, taken as a whole, the basis for any Christian argument on morality is based on Scripture, Tradition and (for Catholics) the constant teaching of the Magisterium.

Although this thread is not in the Ethics and Morality forum, it most certainly is about the morality of war.

 

[durangodawood]

"Jews are generally not his disciples"? All of Jesus disciples were Jews. In its early days, Christians were considered as another sect of Judaism.

Come on. We're talking about today, and the Judaism of contemporary Israel does not generally include Jesus.

Christians believe the ordinary way for men to come to salvation is through His Church. We cannot limit God and so also believe He may have extraordinary ways for men to come to Him. He meets us where He finds us.

I know others would say that the Bible spells out limits on what God has arranged and would point to verses saying clearly that faith in Jesus is a non-optional part of whatever path works. Im not a Christian so my view doesnt really count, but fwiw I see the Bible as written and edited by men - even if they were apprehending truths about God. And so it cannot capture everything about God or his plans . How could it?

 

[o_mlly]

Come on. We're talking about today, and the Judaism of contemporary Israel does not generally include Jesus.

I know others would say that the Bible spells out limits on what God has arranged and would point to verses saying clearly that faith in Jesus is a non-optional part of whatever path works. Im not a Christian so my view doesnt really count, but fwiw I see the Bible as written and edited by men - even if they were apprehending truths about God. And so it cannot capture everything about God or his plans . How could it?

I think this discussion warrants another thread.

 

[Bradskii]

In 1988, the UN recognized the Palestinian territories as an independent state.

There's only one country that needs to recognise it.

 

[rjs330]

Hamas on Tuesday accused Israel of killing Saleh al-Arouri, a top leader of the group, along with two commanders from its armed wing, the Qassam Brigades. Mr. al-Arouri is the senior-most Hamas figure to be killed since Israel vowed to destroy the organization and eliminate its leadership after a deadly Hamas-led attack on Oct. 7.

Mr. al-Arouri was assassinated in an explosion in a suburb of Beirut, Lebanon’s capital, marking the first such assassination of a top Hamas official outside the West Bank and Gaza in recent years.
....
Mr. al-Arouri played a key role in Hamas’s relationships with its regional allies and in increasing Hamas’s military capabilities, according to regional and Western officials. A longtime Hamas operative, he was one of the founders of the group’s armed wing and was linked to a number of attacks on Israeli civilians, including the kidnapping and killing of three teenagers in the West Bank in 2014, which he called a “heroic operation.”

Top Hamas Official Is Killed in Lebanon as Fears Grow of a Wider War

The Israeli government would not comment on the death of Saleh al-Arouri. But a U.S. official said to expect Israel to assassinate Hamas officials “for years.”

www.nytimes.com

I'm not surprised. I was just waiting for Israel to start taking out these people.

 

[Philip_B]

There's only one country that needs to recognise it.

Did you mean, Australia, Canada, The US, The UK, France, Italy, Germany, Japan, South Korea, Mexico, or Israel?

 

[o_mlly]

Did you mean, Australia, Canada, The US, The UK, France, Italy, Germany, Japan, South Korea, Mexico, or Israel?

Not a country, but rather a population.

History suggests that is not another country but the Palestinians themselves who need to recognize that an independent state may be viable solution. Pragmatists, however, will judge the Palestinian's success so far in their de facto state as instructive. Unless and until the Palestinians accept Israel as a legitimate state, no progress is probable.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Tom Tomorrow says he drew this in 2014 during that Gaza War.

 

[Valletta]

There's only one country that needs to recognise it.

It sounds like the Congo and other countries besides Australia are taking people in, and I applaud them.

 

[o_mlly]

Tom Tomorrow says he drew this in 2014 during that Gaza War.

The "disproportionate" comment seems to be true. The IDF has not raped, mutilated, kidnapped or murdered innocent Palestinians.

 

[essentialsaltes]

The "disproportionate" comment seems to be true. The IDF has not raped, mutilated, kidnapped or murdered innocent Palestinians.

Certainly the IDF has mutilated and killed innocent Palestinians.

 

[o_mlly]

Certainly the IDF has mutilated and killed innocent Palestinians.

Do you have evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that the IDF mutilated the dead bodies of innocent Palestinians?
Do you have evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that the IDF murdered innocent Palestinians?

If so then make your case.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Do you have evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that the IDF mutilated innocent Palestinians?

Bombs are being dropped on houses, schools, refugee camps and markets. Many who are not killed outright are nonetheless mutilated.

More than 1,000 children had undergone leg amputations, sometimes more than once or on both legs, by end-November, according to U.N. children's agency UNICEF, in a conflict where Gaza health authorities say nearly a quarter of injuries are among children.

Do you have evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that the IDF murdered innocent Palestinians?

You have frequently described this as a war. Murder is not really applicable. However, if you insist that Hamas murdered innocent Israelis, then yes the IDF has murdered innocent Palestinians.

 

[o_mlly]

Bombs are being dropped on houses, schools, refugee camps and markets. Many who are not killed outright are nonetheless mutilated.

Sources? Are those locations compromised by the presence of Hamas fighters or its war-making materials?

I edited the post to note that the mutilations of dead corpses by Hamas was not duplicated by the IDF.

You have frequently described this as a war. Murder is not really applicable. However, if you insist that Hamas murdered innocent Israelis, then yes the IDF has murdered innocent Palestinians.

In war, the targeting and killing of innocents is murder. Hamas committed murders on Oct. 7, 2023. There is no evidence that the IDF did the same.

 

[rjs330]

Bombs are being dropped on houses, schools, refugee camps and markets. Many who are not killed outright are nonetheless mutilated.

More than 1,000 children had undergone leg amputations, sometimes more than once or on both legs, by end-November, according to U.N. children's agency UNICEF, in a conflict where Gaza health authorities say nearly a quarter of injuries are among children.



You have frequently described this as a war. Murder is not really applicable. However, if you insist that Hamas murdered innocent Israelis, then yes the IDF has murdered innocent Palestinians.

Where is your evidence the IDF has murdered anyone? The general prosecution of war is not murder, regardless of who is being killed. Hamas absolutely murdered innocent people.

Could murder take place during a prosecution of war? Certainly if a soldier deliberately points a gun at an obviously innocent civilian and shoots them for the reasons any murderer would kill someone.

But you haven't provided any evidence of that taking place by the IDF. You have no evidence that the IDF deliberately murdered people. Dropping bombs on suspected enemy emplacements is not murder.

 

[Bradskii]

Did you mean, Australia, Canada, The US, The UK, France, Italy, Germany, Japan, South Korea, Mexico, or Israel?

The last one.

 

[rjs330]

Certainly the IDF has mutilated and killed innocent Palestinians.

First of all what is your evidence they were innocent. Second of all if they are what's your evidence that there were no Hamas combatants or supporters present and the IDF knew that?

In an urban warfare of this type of someone is shooting at you from a building you blow up the building. There is nothing wrong with that. Until we get laser guided enemy seeking magic bullets this is how war is prosecuted. It's ugly and brutal.

That's why it shouldn't be done if at all possible. But sometimes it is. Sometimes there is a time for war if if you are going to do it you must be willing to go all in and win it. War is hell. But sometimes necessary.