Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Nithavela]

Are you denying any culpability on the part of Hamas ???

No, Hamas bears some culpability for this.

 

[rjs330]

I'm beginning to see a pattern here. Pictures of children with guns. Links to Hamas camps for youngsters. Claims that 12 year olds are stabbing Jewish people to death.

Coming soon to a thread near you: 'Well, OK. Maybe some children have been killed. But look at all the evidence we have given you as to their involvement.'

The truth is what is damaging the claims that all these Gazans are just poor innocent slobs. The fact is they aren't. And it's extremely difficult to figure who is and isn't because so many are guilty of supporting Hamas and encouraging people to kill Jews.

 

[Bradskii]

The truth is what is damaging the claims that all these Gazans are just poor innocent slobs.

What is being posted is pictures of children with guns. No comment on the picture. Just let it sit there so people can draw their own conclusions. So what conclusion did you draw?

 

[rjs330]

As RDKirk mentions, the use of unguided bombs in a city is a 'bad practice'. I would use the word 'indiscriminate' -- Israel is not doing 'everything it can' to limit strikes to legitimate targets. Israel is not only using the calculus that a Hamas figure is worth enough to justify killing his family athome, but also that the neighbors can be considered collateral damage.


LINK

Civilians make up 61% of Gaza deaths from airstrikes, Israeli study finds​

Civilian proportion of deaths is higher than the average in all world conflicts in 20th century, data suggests

So civilian deaths in Gaza are disproportionately high compared to other conflicts in the past century. It doesn't seem likely that any particularly large military advantage is being achieved by flattening Gaza.

And as we've discussed before, the deaths of Israeli civilizans have essentially stopped. So the continuing deaths of Gazan civilians is increasingly disproportionate to the harm suffered by the other side.

The data is blatantly dishonest. I'm not surprised. First of all we really have no idea who these civilians are. And we have no idea how many y of these civilians were enabling and supporting Hamas.

These are the kind of blanket assertions that have no context and this are meaningless and are simply cited to enflame emotions.

 

[rjs330]

This is unfortunately true, and it's especially important to consider in the case of Israel and the Occupied Territories/Palestinians.

On 4 July 1967, the General Assembly adopted a Pakistani draft on the situation in Jerusalem. The Resolution was adopted by a vote of 99 in favour, none against, 20 abstentions and 3 absent.

---

1969 Bearing in mind the provisions of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of 12 August 1949 1/ and the provisions of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights,

Recalling the humanitarian resolutions regarding the violations of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the territories occupied by Israel, especially Security Council resolutions 237 (1967) of 14 June 1967 and 259 (1968) of 27 September 1968, Commission on Human Rights resolutions 6 (XXIV) of 27 February 1968 2/ and 6 (XXV) of 4 March 1969,3/ and the relevant resolutions of the International Conference on Human Rights held at Teheran in 1968, the Economic and Social Council, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization and the World Health Organization,

3 - Condemns such policies and practices as collective and area punishment, the destruction of homes and the deportation of the inhabitants of the territories occupied by Israel;​

1971 - Calls once more upon the Government of Israel to take immediately and without any further delay effective steps for the return of the displaced inhabitants;

1973 Expresses its grave concern at the violation by Israel of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949, as well as the other applicable international conventions and resolutions, in particular the following violations: [a through i]

1976 Condemns Israel's continued occupation of Arab territories in violation of the Charter of the United Nations, the principles of international law and repeated United Nations resolutions;

<obviously i could go on and on>

2016 Israel’s Settlements Have No Legal Validity, Constitute Flagrant Violation of International Law, Security Council Reaffirms​

The Security Council reaffirmed this afternoon that Israel’s establishment of settlements in Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, had no legal validity, constituting a flagrant violation under international law and a major obstacle to the vision of two States living side-by-side in peace and security, within internationally recognized borders.

--

All of which is to say, Israel has been flouting international law for decades with no significant penalty beyond a pile of sternly worded letters.

Which is to say Jew Hatred is alive and well in the UN.

 

[rjs330]

There are reports that IDF soldiers carried out field executions (inc women and children) at a school west of Jabaliya

Israel turns schools into military centres, conducting field executions and mass killings [EN/AR] - occupied Palestinian territory.

Oh look another leftist organization that is filled with a bunch of Jew hating leftists who believe anything a terrorist would tell them. They are a highly suspect and biased group.

 

[Marilyn C]

God`s word tells us that when the bigger conflict arises then no country stands with Israel. Only 2 groups of nations will ask what the northern great army wants. Nothing about stopping them though. (Ez. 38: 13)

So, we are seeing the preparation for this part of Ezekiel`s prophecy unfolding.

 

[rjs330]

The original claim, and it's still being used, is that not all the innocent people being killed are that innocent. So the fact that children are being blown up and crushed to death in collapsing apartment blocks was brought up to show that there are innocent people being killed. They are a significant proportion of the death toll. Emotion doesn't change that. They cannot possibly be considered guilty in any way.

Except you immediately post a picture of a ten year old girl with a gun and link to hate camps run by Hamas. With the blazingly obvious implication that some of these children are not that innocent. I think you've set the bar so low that it's not likely to get any lower.

Sure there are innocent people being killed as collateral damage during legitimate targeting of military targets.

With 70% of people supporting Hamas than the killing of 100 civilians means only 30 of them were not supporters of a terrorist organization and are most likely people who are involved in working and teaching everyone to hate and kill the Jews.

 

[rjs330]

What is being posted is pictures of children with guns. No comment on the picture. Just let it sit there so people can draw their own conclusions. So what conclusion did you draw?

So? The kids are being taught and trained to kill Jews. It's a well known fact.

 

[Bradskii]

So? The kids are being taught and trained to kill Jews. It's a well known fact.

There we have it. Children are valid targets.

 

[rjs330]

There we have it. Children are valid targets.

Why wouldn't they be if they are being trained to kill you and provided the means to do so?

 

[essentialsaltes]

The data is blatantly dishonest.

The data... is dishonest?

Do tell.

we really have no idea who these civilians are.

They might have had opinions favorable to Hamas, and thereby become non-civilians?

 

[Bradskii]

They might have had opinions favorable to Hamas, and thereby become non-civilians?

And as children are considered possible members of a trained terrorist group then there's now no death toll that matters any more. They all deserve to die. We're really not far away from 'Best to kill them before they can become a danger.' I think I read somewhere about another military action where at least the younger women were spared.

Oh, my bad. We've already seen young girls with weapons. I guess that's not an option.

 

[Valletta]

There we have it. Children are valid targets.

16 and 17 year olds with automatic weapons should be targets.

 

[Nithavela]

16 and 17 year olds with automatic weapons should be targets.

Apparently there is no middle ground between "all children shall be slaughtered" and "all children are innocent and can't be harmed under any circumstance" for some people.

 

[Carl Emerson]

There we have it. Children are valid targets.

You seem to love turning valid comments into a cynical inference...

 

[rjs330]

Apparently there is no middle ground between "all children shall be slaughtered" and "all children are innocent and can't be harmed under any circumstance" for some people.

You make great point. If the soldiers were rounding up children and then just shooting them all I'd have a serious problem. And the children children must never be harmed is absolutely foolish under the circumstances of war. Particularly of this type.

 

[Nithavela]

You make great point. If the soldiers were rounding up children and then just shooting them all I'd have a serious problem. And the children children must never be harmed is absolutely foolish under the circumstances of war. Particularly of this type.

Child soldiers sadly are a thing.

Besides, even the US forces take recruits starting at age 17. The reporting of the palestinians (assuming that it is accurate) counts everyone killed at age 19 and under as children. That means that by that metric, even a good portion of the US forces is composed of "children".

 

[o_mlly]

True, the difference being that the article I posted in this News and Current Events forum was from the same day I posted, not several years prior.

So what? Are you trying to say that any citation older than what -- a day?, a year?, a decade? -- must be dismissed? Well, that would put the bible in a bad place.

Unlike you, and many others who flood this thread with unverified reports of war atrocities which amount to no more than accusations, I wrote that the source of the reported IDF war crime has a history of anti-Israel bias and should be suspect. However, if the report is verified then those IDF soldiers responsible should be brought to justice. Did you bother to read my post, or did you just light your hair on fire?

 

[o_mlly]

You've already tried to serve me plenty. You should stop drinking that yourself.

? What I have tried to serve in this thread are the rational rules of conducting a just war. You, not so much.