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Is this story related to the Mark of the Beast?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by BABerean2, Apr 5, 2021.

  1. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Can vaccine passports kickstart the economy? The Economist




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  2. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Keep in mind that I do believe Matthew 24:15-22 was fulfilled in 70 AD and Luke 21:20-24 is a parallel passage. I understand the point you're making here, but the problem is that you have no way of making a convincing argument that Matthew 24:29-31 has already occurred. There was no gathering of the elect by the angels in 70 AD. And, if you see it as referring to people being saved from that point on, then that doesn't make sense since people were being saved before 70 AD.

    Also, in Matthew 24:37-39, Jesus compared what will happen to unbelievers at His second coming to what happened to unbelievers with the flood. He said that it destroyed them all and that the same would happen at His coming (not a flood, but that all unbelievers would be killed). How does that have anything to do with 70 AD? To me, He was clearly talking about the same thing Peter wrote about in 2 Peter 3:3-13 when Peter also compared the flood to what will happen when Christ returns.
     
  3. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    You problably don't realize it, but you are arguing in favor of Preterism, while at the same time arguing against it, assuming you are correct about the timing of Matthew 24:15-22. And here are the main reasons why. Not according to me but according to the texts involved.

    Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    The first question we must ask ourselves, after the trib of what days? Anyone reading ch 24 can see that the only other place in that ch where it specifically mentions a tribulation of days is found in verse 21, the same verse you indicated was fulfilled in 70 AD. The fact verse 29 starts out as such---Immediately after the tribulation of those days---that means in order to agree with your interpretation of verse 21, verse 29 is meaning immediately after 70 AD. Which then presents a cpl of more problems concerning your interpretation of verse 30 and 31 that follows.

    The fact you have those verses meaning the 2nd coming in the end of this age, that has to mean a 2000 year gap or more between verse 29 and verses 30 and 31, in order for the text to agree with your interpretation of verses 30 and 31.

    I OTOH simply agree with the text and conclude that the trib of those days did not end in 70 AD, but end in the end of this age prior to the 2nd coming. How can anything involving 70 AD, even as bad as it was, be describing the following---such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be?

    Look at some of the things involved during this great trib in question.

    Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    How can the elect here not be meaning the saved in the church? In what way was the ending of 70 AD for their sake, when all of them made it to safety before anything ever happened to them?

    Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    25 Behold, I have told you before.
    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.


    What does any of this have to do with what happened in 70 AD? Zero, that's what. It's not even remotely related to what happened in 70 AD. None of that has anything to do with what happened to Jerusalem and the temple at the time. I'm not saying you are saying it did, yet how can it not mean during the time of 70 AD when you have verse 21 involving that time?

    If I recall, I'm thinking the way you get around verse 29 is by arguing that there are two tribs meant in the Discourse, and that the trib of those days meant in verse 29 is not meaning the one meant in verse 21 but is meaning the latter. Yet, like I pointed out, as bad as 70 AD was, how can verse 21 be describing that event via this---such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be--especially the fact you are Amil and take Revelation 20:7-9 to be meaning prior to the 2nd coming, as an example?

    Assuming you are correct about Revelation 20:7-9, which you very well could be, if you then compare those verses to that of 70 AD, why couldn't Revelation 20:7-9 be describing Matthew 24:21 instead of 70 AD---such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be?
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  4. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why don't you get clarification from me about how I interpret those verses before assuming things and saying things like this?

    There are two different times of tribulation mentioned in the Olivet Discourse. One was local to Jerusalem and that occurred in 70 AD and that is what Matthew 24:15-22 is about and one is global and has an ongoing and future fulfillment and what is what Matthew 24:23-28 is about. This can be more clearly seen in Luke 21 than Matthew 24.

    The following relates to tribulation in Jerusalem that ended up occurring in 70 AD:

    Luke 21:20
    20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    So, that took place in 70 AD and then after that was "the times of the Gentiles", which we are still in.

    The following does not relate to the tribulation described in verses 20-24, but rather a time future to that:

    Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

    Notice that this time of tribulation does not just happen in and around Jerusalem, but rather happens "on the earth" which I take to mean the whole earth. And it talks about the "distress of nations" rather than just one nation. This is talking about global tribulation before the second coming of Christ. So, Matthew 24:29-31 is talking about the same tribulation as Luke 21:25-28 and not the tribulation described in Luke 21:20-24.

    Please do not say things like this to me. I also agree with the text. I just disagree with you in my interpretation of the text.

    This is talking about things that would happen in and around Jerusalem in particular. Nothing ever happened in Jerusalem as bad as what happened there around 70 AD. Are you aware of the kind of things that happened? Many atrocities happened there to the Jews who did not heed Christ's warning to flee (or who were not able to flee). So, the elect Jesus was referring to there were the Christians who were in Jerusalem.

    This describes the time period after what happened in 70 AD.

    How can nothing in Matthew 24 relate to what happened in 70 AD? One of the questions Jesus was asked was specifically about when the temple buildings would be destroyed. Do you think that He didn't answer that question? Or that the answer is only shown in Luke 21 and not Matthew 24 (or Mark 13)?

    Exactly. Why did it take you this long to mention this? Instead, you gave the impression that you didn't recall me explaining this before, which I have several times (not always directly to you, though).

    Because it relates specifically to Jerusalem and not the whole world.

    Let's say, for the sake of argument, that it applied to the whole world. There's going to be something worse happening in the future than the flood of Noah's day? Really? That's not even possible. Have you thought about that? You're missing the context of what Jesus was saying there.

    Because the context indicates that He was talking about things that would happen in and around Jerusalem. Again, one of the questions that He was asked was about when the temple buildings standing at that time would be destroyed. How can you interpret His response as if He never answered that question? Or at least that His response was not recorded in Matthew 24?
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  5. Hammster

    Hammster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    At this point it looks like it’s an argument from silence. I don’t see where the captivity has to end before His coming.
     
  6. Hammster

    Hammster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I never made an argument for Rome falling apart. That came later. Every nation that God used to judge Israel eventually was judged themselves, and they are no more. I also never said anything about Israel falling apart. But they were judged just as certainly as they were judged in the OT. That’s what Jesus is talking about in Matt 23 and 24.
     
  7. Hammster

    Hammster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    That’s not an eschatology subject.
     
  8. Hammster

    Hammster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    The destruction of the Temple was the final sign of the end of the old covenant. So making one more announcement about the scope of the kingdom doesn’t seem out of place at all.

    Let’s look at that.


    For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
    Matthew 24:37-38

    It doesn’t say anything about anyone being destroyed at His second coming. In fact, it doesn’t say anything about His second coming at all. It does say that when he comes people will be living normal lives like they did in Noah’s day prior to the flood.
     
  9. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    In your mind, Nero was the antichrist, and Jesus "returned", (No, scratch that word), I meant "came" in judgment during 70 AD... no matter what we find in Revelation 11:8, or Matthew 10:5-23, or the fact that Jesus remained seated at the Father's right hand during 70 AD.


    Did you watch the entire video?
    Did you notice the part of the video where it talked about people being required to give proof of vaccination in order to work, or enjoy their freedoms?


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  10. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    See the parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew 13 to understand the passage above.
    The tares are "taken" first and burned in the fire, and then the wheat is gathered into the barn.

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  11. Hammster

    Hammster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Which has nothing to do with The Mark of the Beast™.
     
  12. Hammster

    Hammster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    And that has nothing to do with the fact that in the days of Noah, people were living normally, just like before Christ’s judgment on Israel.
     
  13. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Let me try and tackle this last part first and for now. Have a stray cat that just got into the house. I need to deal with trying to get it out of here. It went into hiding somewhere.

    He did answer that question, but not in Matthew 24, but in Luke 21.

    Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

    In Matthew 24 and Mark 13 it says the following instead.

    Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

    Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand, ) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:


    If these are referring to the same events, then what exactly was the AOD in 70 AD, that was standing in the holy place, standing where it ought not? To this day no one has ever given a satisfactory answer to that, IMO anyway. What does any of that have to do with what happened in 70 AD? Why was the city and temple destroyed to be begin with? Because of an abomination of desolation at the time? Is that why God desired these places destroyed? If yes, then we are back to what I initially asked, what exactly was the AOD in 70 AD, that was standing in the holy place, standing where it ought not?
     
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The wicked were "taken" during the time of Noah.

    Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

    -------------------------

    In 2 Timothy 4:1 Paul said Christ would judge both the living and the dead at His appearing.

    The time of the judgment of the dead is found in Revelation 11:15-18.

    God sent the Romans to destroy the temple and Jerusalem during 70 AD, in the same way He sent the Babylonians to destroy it during an earlier time.

    Christ did not leave heaven during 70 AD.

    -----------------------------------------------

    Back to the Op.


    Vaccine expert on the current COVID vaccines:



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  15. Hammster

    Hammster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Right. They were living normal lives until the flood. Those who listened to Christ and fled Judaea survived.
     
  16. Hammster

    Hammster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Still not The Mark of the Beast™.
     
  17. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    What took me so long? Don't you read a person's post in it's entirety first, then respond afterwards? Because if you did you would have seen that I did mention this in this post before you ever bothered starting to type out a response to what all I said in this post. Plus, keep in mind, though I don't have the best recall anymore, you and I still have a history together on that other board where we initially first met. So I'm meaning in this particular case that I seem to recall you initially arguing that years ago on that other board, though I did neglect to clarify that in that post, but am clarifying it in this one.
     
  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Do you think Luke 21:25-28 is about 70 AD, or do you think it is about Nero?

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  19. Hammster

    Hammster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Let’s look.


    “There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    Luke 21:25-27

    Looks to me like it’s the destruction of Jerusalem.
     
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The destruction of Jerusalem is found in Luke 21:20-24a.

    Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
    Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
    Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


    Luke 21:24b referred to the times of the Gospel being taken to the Gentiles, which we are in now. Christ will return when the times of the Gentiles is completed.
    Paul referred to this time period in Acts of the Apostles 28:28, and Romans 1:16, and Romans 11:25.


    When the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled we find the Second Coming of Christ below.
    Signs in the sun, moon, and stars are also found in Revelation chapter 6.


    Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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