Is this story related to the Mark of the Beast?

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,016
25,180
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,904.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
The destruction of Jerusalem is found in Luke 21:20-24a.

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Luke 21:24b referred to the times of the Gospel being taken to the Gentiles, which we are in now. Christ will return when the times of the Gentiles is completed.
Paul referred to this time period in Acts of the Apostles 28:28, and Romans 1:16, and Romans 11:25.


When the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled we find the Second Coming of Christ below.
Signs in the sun, moon, and stars are also found in Revelation chapter 6.


Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

.
You presuppositions are in play here. There’s no way the original hearers or readers would have come to that conclusion. You should trust Jesus when He said that this generation (the one He was talking to) would not pass until those things happened.

If you let scripture interpret scripture, you’ll have a better understanding. You’ll see that this was judgement against Israel. Again. You’ll see that “coming” is used quite often as judgement language. You’ll see that every time “this generation” is used, it’s in judgment. You see that coming on the clouds is judgment language. You’ll see that the sun, moon, stars language is decreation language used as a judgment. All of the scriptures point to Christ telling of the judgement of Israel. I can go over each aspect if you like. But I’m sure you can do the research yourself and see that I’m correct. You must read this as a first century Jew would read it.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
All of the scriptures point to Christ telling of the judgement of Israel. I can go over each aspect if you like. But I’m sure you can do the research yourself and see that I’m correct. You must read this as a first century Jew would read it.

I have already seen your attempts to turn the word "come" into the word "return".

I have done the research.
Luke 21:20-24a is about the events leading up to and during 70 AD.

We are now in the times when the Gospel is being taken to the Gentiles described in Acts 28:28, and Romans 1:16, and Romans 11:25, and Galatians 1:14-18.
You must ignore this time period to make your viewpoint work.
That time period is described in Luke 21:24b.

Luke 21:25-28 describes the Second Coming of Christ after the times of the Gentiles has been completed.

I have just gone over these aspects with you.
Check the scriptural references for yourself, or ignore them and hang onto your form of Preterism.

.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: DavidPT
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
At this point it looks like it’s an argument from silence. I don’t see where the captivity has to end before His coming.


Why are you unwilling to admit that the times of the Gentiles were not fulfilled in the 1st century, and that the fulfillment of this is among the things required before this generation can pass away? If your Preterist position can still work in spite of that, then you need to show how that is possible.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

First Jesus said this.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


Later Jesus said this. It therefore is not remotely true if anyone insists---till the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled----is not included among till all be fulfilled, before this generation can pass away. If Jesus didn't mean to include that event, He would have said what He said in verse 32 before what He said in verse 24, not after.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,016
25,180
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,904.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
I have already seen your attempts to turn the word "come" into the word "return".

I have done the research.
Luke 21:20-24a is about the events leading up to and during 70 AD.

We are now in the times when the Gospel is being taken to the Gentiles described in Acts 28:28, and Romans 1:16, and Romans 11:25, and Galatians 1:14-18.
You must ignore this time period to make your viewpoint work.
That time period is described in Luke 21:24b.

Luke 21:25-28 describes the Second Coming of Christ after the times of the Gentiles has been completed.

I have just gone over these aspects with you.
Check the scriptural references for yourself, or ignore them and hang onto your form of Preterism.

.
Do you want me to explain this, with the scripture? Or would you prefer to check for yourself?

If you let scripture interpret scripture, you’ll have a better understanding. You’ll see that this was judgement against Israel. Again. You’ll see that “coming” is used quite often as judgement language. You’ll see that every time “this generation” is used, it’s in judgment. You see that coming on the clouds is judgment language. You’ll see that the sun, moon, stars language is decreation language used as a judgment. All of the scriptures point to Christ telling of the judgement of Israel. I can go over each aspect if you like. But I’m sure you can do the research yourself and see that I’m correct. You must read this as a first century Jew would read it.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,016
25,180
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,904.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Why are you unwilling to admit that the times of the Gentiles were not fulfilled in the 1st century, and that the fulfillment of this is among the things required before this generation can pass away?
Because that’s not what it says.
 
Upvote 0

grafted branch

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 21, 2019
1,526
246
46
Washington
✟238,025.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Why are you unwilling to admit that the times of the Gentiles were not fulfilled in the 1st century, and that the fulfillment of this is among the things required before this generation can pass away? If your Preterist position can still work in spite of that, then you need to show how that is possible.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

First Jesus said this.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


Later Jesus said this. It therefore is not remotely true if anyone insists---till the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled----is not included among till all be fulfilled, before this generation can pass away. If Jesus didn't mean to include that event, He would have said what He said in verse 32 before what He said in verse 24, not after.
The times of the Gentiles can’t have anything to do with salvation because currently there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. When looking at salvation it’s currently the times of everyone from every nation.

According to Revelation 11:2 it will be 42 months that the Gentiles are treading the holy city under foot. So it is possible that this occurred between 66 - 70 AD.

ps. did you ever get that cat out?
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
You problably don't realize it, but you are arguing in favor of Preterism, while at the same time arguing against it, assuming you are correct about the timing of Matthew 24:15-22. And here are the main reasons why. Not according to me but according to the texts involved.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The first question we must ask ourselves, after the trib of what days? Anyone reading ch 24 can see that the only other place in that ch where it specifically mentions a tribulation of days is found in verse 21, the same verse you indicated was fulfilled in 70 AD. The fact verse 29 starts out as such---Immediately after the tribulation of those days---that means in order to agree with your interpretation of verse 21, verse 29 is meaning immediately after 70 AD. Which then presents a cpl of more problems concerning your interpretation of verse 30 and 31 that follows.

The fact you have those verses meaning the 2nd coming in the end of this age, that has to mean a 2000 year gap or more between verse 29 and verses 30 and 31, in order for the text to agree with your interpretation of verses 30 and 31.

I OTOH simply agree with the text and conclude that the trib of those days did not end in 70 AD, but end in the end of this age prior to the 2nd coming. How can anything involving 70 AD, even as bad as it was, be describing the following---such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be?

Look at some of the things involved during this great trib in question.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

How can the elect here not be meaning the saved in the church? In what way was the ending of 70 AD for their sake, when all of them made it to safety before anything ever happened to them?

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.


What does any of this have to do with what happened in 70 AD? Zero, that's what. It's not even remotely related to what happened in 70 AD. None of that has anything to do with what happened to Jerusalem and the temple at the time. I'm not saying you are saying it did, yet how can it not mean during the time of 70 AD when you have verse 21 involving that time?

If I recall, I'm thinking the way you get around verse 29 is by arguing that there are two tribs meant in the Discourse, and that the trib of those days meant in verse 29 is not meaning the one meant in verse 21 but is meaning the latter. Yet, like I pointed out, as bad as 70 AD was, how can verse 21 be describing that event via this---such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be--especially the fact you are Amil and take Revelation 20:7-9 to be meaning prior to the 2nd coming, as an example?

Assuming you are correct about Revelation 20:7-9, which you very well could be, if you then compare those verses to that of 70 AD, why couldn't Revelation 20:7-9 be describing Matthew 24:21 instead of 70 AD---such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be?

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) "

This does not say, "who hears my words". It is for those reading the Canon of Scripture. Or at the least those who could read Matthew. Those reading would be looking back on 70AD. Yet no one declared an AoD in early church history.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
According to Revelation 11:2 it will be 42 months that the Gentiles are treading the holy city under foot. So it is possible that this occurred between 66 - 70 AD.

ps. did you ever get that cat out?


To place it in that era of time is to place the 2 witnesses meant in that same chapter, in that same era of time as well, since they obviously have a connection to the 42 months meant. How did the 2 witnesses play a part in events between 66 - 70 AD? I'm not arguing that the 2 witnesses are meaning 2 literal inviduals, so that is irrelevant in this case. I'm just pointing out, what or whoever the 2 witnesses are referring to, they are connected with the 42 months in question.


As to the cat. Did get it out by chasing it out. It's not domesticated so there was no way to try and pick it up and carry it out. My wife feeds it all the time, yet it's not our cat nor do we want it inside of the house. It apparently sneaked in when the front door was opened.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Do you want me to explain this, with the scripture?

Yes.

I want you to explain it, but this time try to not change any words in scripture.

Show us where Jesus stayed seated at the Father's right hand during 70 AD, and also returned to planet earth at the same time.

Show us where people saw Him in the clouds of earth during 70 AD.



.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) "

This does not say, "who hears my words". It is for those reading the Canon of Scripture. Or at the least those who could read Matthew. Those reading would be looking back on 70AD. Yet no one declared an AoD in early church history.


I tend to agree, unless someone else can provide proof that anyone declared an AOD in early church history, and that they connected it with 70 AD. Jesus said to consult the book of Daniel to gain further insight into what He was meaning.

Some ppl's idea of consulting the book of Daniel is to only consult the last cpl of verses in ch 9, as if this is the only place in the entire book that involves an abomination like this. And some of these same ppl often argue, how would those living at the time have understood something? Since that's what some ppl think Jesus was referring to, 70 AD, how would anyone prior to 70 AD by only going to the last cpl of verses in Daniel 9 have gained greater insight into Jesus' words at the time? How would they have already known in advance, by only consulting the last cpl of verses in ch 9, that 70 AD was meant before 70 AD even came and went first?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

grafted branch

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 21, 2019
1,526
246
46
Washington
✟238,025.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
To place it in that era of time is to place the 2 witnesses meant in that same chapter, in that same era of time as well, since they obviously have a connection to the 42 months meant. How did the 2 witnesses play a part in events between 66 - 70 AD? I'm not arguing that the 2 witnesses are meaning 2 literal inviduals, so that is irrelevant in this case. I'm just pointing out, what or whoever the 2 witnesses are referring to, they are connected with the 42 months in question.
I don’t necessarily think the 2 witnesses prophesize in 66 – 70 AD. It is possible the 2 witnesses are referring to John the Baptist and Elijah. I think it’s possible although not proven from scriptures that JtB’s ministry could have been for 1,260 days.

Similarities between JtB and the 2 witnesses are as follows …

Matthew 11:14 JtB is called Elias (he represents 2 people, himself and Elijah)

Revelation 11:3 they are clothed in sackcloth. Mark 1:6 JtB was clothed with camel’s hair.

Revelation 11:7 when their testimony is finished the beast makes war, overcomes them, and kills them. Matthew 14:3 Herod puts JtB in prison, Matthew 11:2-3 JtB questions if Jesus is the Christ, and Matthew 14:10 JtB is beheaded.

Revelation 11:9 -10 their dead bodies are in the street for 3 ½ days and they that dwell on the earth rejoice, make merry, and send gifts. From Mark 6:29 it is possible that JtB’s body was in the street for 3 ½ days because it was only after JtB’s disciples heard of his beheading that they came and got his body; also JtB was beheaded at Herod’s birthday party.

Revelation 11:11 after 3 ½ days the spirit of life from God enters into them and they stood on their feet. Matthew 27:52-53 after His resurrection the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints arose. Since Jesus was in the grave for 3 days, perhaps it is the extra ½ day till the graves of the saints are opened.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don’t necessarily think the 2 witnesses prophesize in 66 – 70 AD. It is possible the 2 witnesses are referring to John the Baptist and Elijah. I think it’s possible although not proven from scriptures that JtB’s ministry could have been for 1,260 days.

Similarities between JtB and the 2 witnesses are as follows …

Matthew 11:14 JtB is called Elias (he represents 2 people, himself and Elijah)

Revelation 11:3 they are clothed in sackcloth. Mark 1:6 JtB was clothed with camel’s hair.

Revelation 11:7 when their testimony is finished the beast makes war, overcomes them, and kills them. Matthew 14:3 Herod puts JtB in prison, Matthew 11:2-3 JtB questions if Jesus is the Christ, and Matthew 14:10 JtB is beheaded.

Revelation 11:9 -10 their dead bodies are in the street for 3 ½ days and they that dwell on the earth rejoice, make merry, and send gifts. From Mark 6:29 it is possible that JtB’s body was in the street for 3 ½ days because it was only after JtB’s disciples heard of his beheading that they came and got his body; also JtB was beheaded at Herod’s birthday party.

Revelation 11:11 after 3 ½ days the spirit of life from God enters into them and they stood on their feet. Matthew 27:52-53 after His resurrection the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints arose. Since Jesus was in the grave for 3 days, perhaps it is the extra ½ day till the graves of the saints are opened.

Revelation 11 describes the Two Witnesses as candlesticks, and olive trees.

See Revelation 1:20 to understand the symbol of the candlesticks, and see Romans 11:24 to understand the symbol of the olive trees.


.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I never made an argument for Rome falling apart. That came later. Every nation that God used to judge Israel eventually was judged themselves, and they are no more. I also never said anything about Israel falling apart. But they were judged just as certainly as they were judged in the OT. That’s what Jesus is talking about in Matt 23 and 24.
Except you pointed out the signs in the sun and moon declared a nation would be judged. Israel was not a nation in 70AD. They were under the rule of Rome. Rome was not judged. The Nation of Israel was not judged. That generation was judged. If you take this sign in the sky as symbolic of a nation being judged, it has not happened yet. There was no sign in the sky in 70AD. The only thing that happened was Jerusalem was laid bare and desolate. That is not the symbolism of the sun and moon.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don’t necessarily think the 2 witnesses prophesize in 66 – 70 AD. It is possible the 2 witnesses are referring to John the Baptist and Elijah. I think it’s possible although not proven from scriptures that JtB’s ministry could have been for 1,260 days.

Similarities between JtB and the 2 witnesses are as follows …

Matthew 11:14 JtB is called Elias (he represents 2 people, himself and Elijah)

Revelation 11:3 they are clothed in sackcloth. Mark 1:6 JtB was clothed with camel’s hair.

Revelation 11:7 when their testimony is finished the beast makes war, overcomes them, and kills them. Matthew 14:3 Herod puts JtB in prison, Matthew 11:2-3 JtB questions if Jesus is the Christ, and Matthew 14:10 JtB is beheaded.

Revelation 11:9 -10 their dead bodies are in the street for 3 ½ days and they that dwell on the earth rejoice, make merry, and send gifts. From Mark 6:29 it is possible that JtB’s body was in the street for 3 ½ days because it was only after JtB’s disciples heard of his beheading that they came and got his body; also JtB was beheaded at Herod’s birthday party.

Revelation 11:11 after 3 ½ days the spirit of life from God enters into them and they stood on their feet. Matthew 27:52-53 after His resurrection the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints arose. Since Jesus was in the grave for 3 days, perhaps it is the extra ½ day till the graves of the saints are opened.


Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


Here's the problem with what you are proposing, or at least one of the problems, since there is more than just one problem. When John was given the Revelation visions, JTB was already dead by that time, and that the text above indicates that the beast has to ascend out of the pit first, in order to make war with them and kill them. With that in mind, let's look at Revelation 17 next.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The beast meant here has to be the same beast meant in Revelation 11:7, and that John indicated that at the time of the visions, this beast is not, obviously meaning it was in the pit at the time. We can know that from this part---and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit. That part is obviously meaning post John's visions, therefore JTB couldn't possibly have been one of the 2Ws meant, because the beast would have been in the pit at the time, and that it's ascension from the pit is meaning post John's visions, not prior to them instead. The beast ascends out of the pit only one time, therefore Revelation 11:7 undeniably has to be meaning future to the time of John receiving these visions.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Revelation 11 describes the Two Witnesses as candlesticks, and olive trees.

See Revelation 1:20 to understand the symbol of the candlesticks, and see Romans 11:24 to understand the symbol of the olive trees.
Are the two witnesses the two olive trees or the two candlesticks? Two olive trees and two candlesticks make 4 witnesses. There are four witnesses over the earth.
 
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
8,856
3,553
N/A
✟145,364.00
Country
Czech Republic
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
If this is your key verse, you should know it can be also translated as:

Kαὶ πεσοῦνται στόματι μαχαίρης
- And they shall fall by the edge of the sword.

Kαὶ αἰχμαλωτισθήσονται εἰς τὰ ἔθνη πάντα
- And they will be led away captive into all nations.

Kαὶ Ἰερουσαλὴμ ἔσται πατουμένη ὑπὸ ἐθνῶν ἄχρι οὗ πληρωθῶσιν
- And Jerusalem shall be trodden down by Gentiles fully.

Kαὶ ἔσονται καιροὶ ἐθνῶν
- And the times of the Gentiles will happen.
 
Upvote 0

grafted branch

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 21, 2019
1,526
246
46
Washington
✟238,025.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Revelation 11 describes the Two Witnesses as candlesticks, and olive trees.

See Revelation 1:20 to understand the symbol of the candlesticks, and see Romans 11:24 to understand the symbol of the olive trees.


.
Revelation 1:20 describes 7 candlesticks. Revelation 11:4 has only 2 candlesticks. If 5 have fallen away by the time we get to Revelation 11 then it would seem that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 would have to be fulfilled prior to the 2 witnesses.

Romans 11:24 has 2 olive trees, one wild and one good. If this verse is used to understand the 2 witnesses then they would be prophesying during the same time period that Jews and Gentiles were prophesying together.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

grafted branch

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 21, 2019
1,526
246
46
Washington
✟238,025.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The beast ascends out of the pit only one time, therefore Revelation 11:7 undeniably has to be meaning future to the time of John receiving these visions.
Nowhere does it say that the beast only ascends out of the pit once. In Revelation 9:11 there is a king of the bottomless pit.
 
Upvote 0