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Is this story related to the Mark of the Beast?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by BABerean2, Apr 5, 2021.

  1. Hammster

    Hammster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    You presuppositions are in play here. There’s no way the original hearers or readers would have come to that conclusion. You should trust Jesus when He said that this generation (the one He was talking to) would not pass until those things happened.

    If you let scripture interpret scripture, you’ll have a better understanding. You’ll see that this was judgement against Israel. Again. You’ll see that “coming” is used quite often as judgement language. You’ll see that every time “this generation” is used, it’s in judgment. You see that coming on the clouds is judgment language. You’ll see that the sun, moon, stars language is decreation language used as a judgment. All of the scriptures point to Christ telling of the judgement of Israel. I can go over each aspect if you like. But I’m sure you can do the research yourself and see that I’m correct. You must read this as a first century Jew would read it.
     
  2. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    I have already seen your attempts to turn the word "come" into the word "return".

    I have done the research.
    Luke 21:20-24a is about the events leading up to and during 70 AD.

    We are now in the times when the Gospel is being taken to the Gentiles described in Acts 28:28, and Romans 1:16, and Romans 11:25, and Galatians 1:14-18.
    You must ignore this time period to make your viewpoint work.
    That time period is described in Luke 21:24b.

    Luke 21:25-28 describes the Second Coming of Christ after the times of the Gentiles has been completed.

    I have just gone over these aspects with you.
    Check the scriptural references for yourself, or ignore them and hang onto your form of Preterism.

    .
     
  3. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Why are you unwilling to admit that the times of the Gentiles were not fulfilled in the 1st century, and that the fulfillment of this is among the things required before this generation can pass away? If your Preterist position can still work in spite of that, then you need to show how that is possible.

    Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    First Jesus said this.

    Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


    Later Jesus said this. It therefore is not remotely true if anyone insists---till the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled----is not included among till all be fulfilled, before this generation can pass away. If Jesus didn't mean to include that event, He would have said what He said in verse 32 before what He said in verse 24, not after.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  4. Hammster

    Hammster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    That’s just a lie.
     
  5. Hammster

    Hammster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Do you want me to explain this, with the scripture? Or would you prefer to check for yourself?

    If you let scripture interpret scripture, you’ll have a better understanding. You’ll see that this was judgement against Israel. Again. You’ll see that “coming” is used quite often as judgement language. You’ll see that every time “this generation” is used, it’s in judgment. You see that coming on the clouds is judgment language. You’ll see that the sun, moon, stars language is decreation language used as a judgment. All of the scriptures point to Christ telling of the judgement of Israel. I can go over each aspect if you like. But I’m sure you can do the research yourself and see that I’m correct. You must read this as a first century Jew would read it.
     
  6. Hammster

    Hammster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Because that’s not what it says.
     
  7. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it would be helpful if you would at least explain what it does say since you disagree that it says that.
     
  8. grafted branch

    grafted branch Active Member Supporter

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    The times of the Gentiles can’t have anything to do with salvation because currently there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. When looking at salvation it’s currently the times of everyone from every nation.

    According to Revelation 11:2 it will be 42 months that the Gentiles are treading the holy city under foot. So it is possible that this occurred between 66 - 70 AD.

    ps. did you ever get that cat out?
     
  9. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) "

    This does not say, "who hears my words". It is for those reading the Canon of Scripture. Or at the least those who could read Matthew. Those reading would be looking back on 70AD. Yet no one declared an AoD in early church history.
     
  10. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    To place it in that era of time is to place the 2 witnesses meant in that same chapter, in that same era of time as well, since they obviously have a connection to the 42 months meant. How did the 2 witnesses play a part in events between 66 - 70 AD? I'm not arguing that the 2 witnesses are meaning 2 literal inviduals, so that is irrelevant in this case. I'm just pointing out, what or whoever the 2 witnesses are referring to, they are connected with the 42 months in question.


    As to the cat. Did get it out by chasing it out. It's not domesticated so there was no way to try and pick it up and carry it out. My wife feeds it all the time, yet it's not our cat nor do we want it inside of the house. It apparently sneaked in when the front door was opened.
     
  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Yes.

    I want you to explain it, but this time try to not change any words in scripture.

    Show us where Jesus stayed seated at the Father's right hand during 70 AD, and also returned to planet earth at the same time.

    Show us where people saw Him in the clouds of earth during 70 AD.



    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  12. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I tend to agree, unless someone else can provide proof that anyone declared an AOD in early church history, and that they connected it with 70 AD. Jesus said to consult the book of Daniel to gain further insight into what He was meaning.

    Some ppl's idea of consulting the book of Daniel is to only consult the last cpl of verses in ch 9, as if this is the only place in the entire book that involves an abomination like this. And some of these same ppl often argue, how would those living at the time have understood something? Since that's what some ppl think Jesus was referring to, 70 AD, how would anyone prior to 70 AD by only going to the last cpl of verses in Daniel 9 have gained greater insight into Jesus' words at the time? How would they have already known in advance, by only consulting the last cpl of verses in ch 9, that 70 AD was meant before 70 AD even came and went first?
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  13. grafted branch

    grafted branch Active Member Supporter

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    I don’t necessarily think the 2 witnesses prophesize in 66 – 70 AD. It is possible the 2 witnesses are referring to John the Baptist and Elijah. I think it’s possible although not proven from scriptures that JtB’s ministry could have been for 1,260 days.

    Similarities between JtB and the 2 witnesses are as follows …

    Matthew 11:14 JtB is called Elias (he represents 2 people, himself and Elijah)

    Revelation 11:3 they are clothed in sackcloth. Mark 1:6 JtB was clothed with camel’s hair.

    Revelation 11:7 when their testimony is finished the beast makes war, overcomes them, and kills them. Matthew 14:3 Herod puts JtB in prison, Matthew 11:2-3 JtB questions if Jesus is the Christ, and Matthew 14:10 JtB is beheaded.

    Revelation 11:9 -10 their dead bodies are in the street for 3 ½ days and they that dwell on the earth rejoice, make merry, and send gifts. From Mark 6:29 it is possible that JtB’s body was in the street for 3 ½ days because it was only after JtB’s disciples heard of his beheading that they came and got his body; also JtB was beheaded at Herod’s birthday party.

    Revelation 11:11 after 3 ½ days the spirit of life from God enters into them and they stood on their feet. Matthew 27:52-53 after His resurrection the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints arose. Since Jesus was in the grave for 3 days, perhaps it is the extra ½ day till the graves of the saints are opened.
     
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Revelation 11 describes the Two Witnesses as candlesticks, and olive trees.

    See Revelation 1:20 to understand the symbol of the candlesticks, and see Romans 11:24 to understand the symbol of the olive trees.


    .
     
  15. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Except you pointed out the signs in the sun and moon declared a nation would be judged. Israel was not a nation in 70AD. They were under the rule of Rome. Rome was not judged. The Nation of Israel was not judged. That generation was judged. If you take this sign in the sky as symbolic of a nation being judged, it has not happened yet. There was no sign in the sky in 70AD. The only thing that happened was Jerusalem was laid bare and desolate. That is not the symbolism of the sun and moon.
     
  16. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


    Here's the problem with what you are proposing, or at least one of the problems, since there is more than just one problem. When John was given the Revelation visions, JTB was already dead by that time, and that the text above indicates that the beast has to ascend out of the pit first, in order to make war with them and kill them. With that in mind, let's look at Revelation 17 next.

    Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    The beast meant here has to be the same beast meant in Revelation 11:7, and that John indicated that at the time of the visions, this beast is not, obviously meaning it was in the pit at the time. We can know that from this part---and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit. That part is obviously meaning post John's visions, therefore JTB couldn't possibly have been one of the 2Ws meant, because the beast would have been in the pit at the time, and that it's ascension from the pit is meaning post John's visions, not prior to them instead. The beast ascends out of the pit only one time, therefore Revelation 11:7 undeniably has to be meaning future to the time of John receiving these visions.
     
  17. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Are the two witnesses the two olive trees or the two candlesticks? Two olive trees and two candlesticks make 4 witnesses. There are four witnesses over the earth.
     
  18. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    If this is your key verse, you should know it can be also translated as:

    Kαὶ πεσοῦνται στόματι μαχαίρης
    - And they shall fall by the edge of the sword.

    Kαὶ αἰχμαλωτισθήσονται εἰς τὰ ἔθνη πάντα
    - And they will be led away captive into all nations.

    Kαὶ Ἰερουσαλὴμ ἔσται πατουμένη ὑπὸ ἐθνῶν ἄχρι οὗ πληρωθῶσιν
    - And Jerusalem shall be trodden down by Gentiles fully.

    Kαὶ ἔσονται καιροὶ ἐθνῶν
    - And the times of the Gentiles will happen.
     
  19. grafted branch

    grafted branch Active Member Supporter

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    Revelation 1:20 describes 7 candlesticks. Revelation 11:4 has only 2 candlesticks. If 5 have fallen away by the time we get to Revelation 11 then it would seem that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 would have to be fulfilled prior to the 2 witnesses.

    Romans 11:24 has 2 olive trees, one wild and one good. If this verse is used to understand the 2 witnesses then they would be prophesying during the same time period that Jews and Gentiles were prophesying together.
     
  20. grafted branch

    grafted branch Active Member Supporter

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    Nowhere does it say that the beast only ascends out of the pit once. In Revelation 9:11 there is a king of the bottomless pit.
     
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