Is this story related to the Mark of the Beast?

Hammster

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Also, it makes no sense to think of what happened in 70 AD as a case of Christ coming as a thief (suddenly and unexpectedly), as I pointed out before.
What exactly does He say about that?
 
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BABerean2

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The point Jesus made was that they would make it to all of the cities in Israel prior to His coming.

Are you sure your statement above is what you meant to say?

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.


(YLT) 'And whenever they may persecute you in this city, flee to the other, for verily I say to you, ye may not have completed the cities of Israel till the Son of Man may come.


Most Christians understand Christ is coming back to earth at His "Second Coming".

In Matthew 10:23 Christ said He would come as "the Son of man", before they finished the assignment given to them in Matthew 10:5-7.

This "first coming" as the Messiah occurred before His disciples were able to go to all of the cities of Israel. That mission was completed after His resurrection from the dead.

.
 
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Hammster

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Are you sure your statement above is what you meant to say?
Yes.

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Right. And before they could hit all of the cities, He said He would come.

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
I’ve asked you a few times when did this happen? Was it before or after His ascension?
Most Christians understand Christ is coming back to earth at His "Second Coming".

In Matthew 10:23 Christ said He would come as "the Son of man", before they finished the assignment given to them in Matthew 10:5-7.

This "first coming" as the Messiah occurred before His disciples were able to go to all of the cities of Israel.

Most Christians haven’t looked at the scriptures to see what’s meant by “coming”. Just look, for instance, at the letters to the seven churches. See how many times He mentions He would be coming, and see why. A hint: it always in judgement.
 
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BABerean2

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Most Christians haven’t looked at the scriptures to see what’s meant by “coming”. Just look, for instance, at the letters to the seven churches. See how many times He mentions He would be coming, and see why. A hint: it always in judgement.

I will say it again. He came as the Messiah on a donkey, and at Calvary.

Mat_21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.


Are you saying the disciples did not go to all of the cities of Israel before 70AD?

Are you saying Jesus Christ returned to planet earth during 70 AD?

.
 
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Hammster

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I will say it again. He came as the Messiah on a donkey, and at Calvary.

Mat_21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
Yes, I know.
Are you saying the disciples did not go to all of the cities of Israel before 70AD?
If they did, exactly when were they persecuted and brought to court and scourged in the synagogues?

Are you saying Jesus Christ returned to planet earth during 70 AD?

I’m saying that He brought Judgement on Jerusalem. That’s what Matthew 23 and 24 are talking about.
 
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BABerean2

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If they did, exactly when were they persecuted and brought to court and scourged in the synagogues?

Your answer is found below in Paul's testimony.


Act 22:1 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.
Act 22:2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
Act 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
Act 22:4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.
Act 22:5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.
Act 22:6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
Act 22:7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
Act 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
Act 22:10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
Act 22:11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
Act 22:12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
Act 22:13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
Act 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
Act 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Act 22:17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;
Act 22:18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
Act 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.


.
 
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DavidPT

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Most Christians haven’t looked at the scriptures to see what’s meant by “coming”. Just look, for instance, at the letters to the seven churches. See how many times He mentions He would be coming, and see why. A hint: it always in judgement.


When He bodily comes in the end of this age, don't you think that will involve coming in judgment? Why does everything in the Discourse have to revolve around 70 AD to some of you?Why can't some of it involve what happened in 70 AD, and some of it involve what will happen in the end of this age?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Notice something here. Notice where the text undeniably chronologically places the coming meant in verse 30. It places it after the trib of those days, so not before or during the trib of those days, but after, where the trib of those days are undeniably meaning what is recorded in Matthew 24:15-26. And not only is the coming after what is recorded in Matthew 24:15-26, it is also after the following that is recorded in verse 29---shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

What coming of Christ, in any sense, already occurred after the events in Matthew 24:15-26 have been fulfilled first, and after this part have been fulfilled first---shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken?

The chronology is---first the trib of those days--then the sun going dark---then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 
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Hammster

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Your answer is found below in Paul's testimony.


Act 22:1 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.
Act 22:2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
Act 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
Act 22:4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.
Act 22:5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.
Act 22:6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
Act 22:7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
Act 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
Act 22:10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
Act 22:11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
Act 22:12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
Act 22:13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
Act 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
Act 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Act 22:17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;
Act 22:18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
Act 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.


.
So it happened after Christ’s ascension. So His riding into Jerusalem on a donkey isn’t in view in Matthew 10.
 
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Hammster

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When He bodily comes in the end of this age, don't you think that will involve coming in judgment? Why does everything in the Discourse have to revolve around 70 AD to some of you?Why can't some of it involve what happened in 70 AD, and some of it involve what will happen in the end of this age?
It revolves around AD 70 because that’s what He’s talking about. So it would be disingenuous of me to pretend otherwise.

What coming of Christ, in any sense, already occurred after the events in Matthew 24:15-26 have been fulfilled first, and after this part have been fulfilled first---shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken?

The sun, moon, stars reference isn’t literal. If you look back to the OT, it’s decreation language. It’s used when God has judged a nation. That’s the same sense as used here. The leadership of Israel was judged by Christ. His coming on the clouds is a reference that the first century Jews would have understood as judgement.

The oracle concerning Egypt.
Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt;
The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence,
And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
— Isaiah 19:1
The chronology is---first the trib of those days--then the sun going dark---then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Exactly.
 
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BABerean2

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So it happened after Christ’s ascension. So His riding into Jerusalem on a donkey isn’t in view in Matthew 10.

Wrong.

It fits perfectly with what Christ said in Matthew 10:5-23.
He would "come" before they finished their mission of taking the Gospel to all the cities of Israel, which was not completed until about 3 years after his sacrifice at Calvary.
(See Galatians 1:14-18)

Mat_21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.


Paul was sent to the Gentiles after the mission of Matthew 10:5-23 was completed of the Gospel being taken "first" (Romans 1:16) to the Jews.

Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
Act 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.


.
 
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Hammster

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Wrong.

It fits perfectly with what Christ said in Matthew 10:5-23.
He would "come" before they finished their mission of taking the Gospel to all the cities of Israel, which was not completed until about 3 years after his sacrifice at Calvary.
(See Galatians 1:14-18)

Mat_21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.


Paul was sent to the Gentiles after the mission of Matthew 10:5-23 was completed of the Gospel being taken "first" (Romans 1:16) to the Jews.

Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
Act 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.


.
This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:
“Say to the daughter of Zion,
‘Behold your King is coming to you,
Gentle, and mounted on a donkey,
Even on a colt, the foal of a beast of burden.’”
— Matthew 21:4-5

It didn’t take place to fulfill what He said a few months prior.
 
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BABerean2

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It didn’t take place to fulfill what He said a few months prior.

During our conversation here you have desperately attempted to change what the Bible actually says to make your form of Preterism work.

Our exchange here bears witness to the truth found plainly written in scripture.

I am glad you used the word "return", instead of "come" on one occasion, because in your mind that is how you have redefined the text.

I do not know what else I could point out in the scriptures, which prove beyond any doubt that He "came" as the Messiah riding on a donkey before the mission of taking the Gospel "first" to the Jews assigned in Matthew 10:5-23 was completed.

You asked for proof of the persecution, and Paul's testimony provided what you requested.

Now, you are still attempting to prove your position.

All of the unbiased witnesses here have seen the truth.

Now we will return to the Op.

--------------------------------------------

Why vaccine passports are a BAD idea:

.
 
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DavidPT

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The sun, moon, stars reference isn’t literal. If you look back to the OT, it’s decreation language. It’s used when God has judged a nation. That’s the same sense as used here. The leadership of Israel was judged by Christ. His coming on the clouds is a reference that the first century Jews would have understood as judgement.

The oracle concerning Egypt.
Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt;
The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence,
And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
— Isaiah 19:1


I'm not arguing that it might be literal, maybe it is is, maybe it isn't, yet, that is irrelevant in this particular case. I'm arguing that the coming in verse 30 is meaning after the sun goes dark, whatever the sun going dark might be referring to. And since it appears you agree that the coming is after the sun goes dark, there is nothing involving that that we are in disagreement about, chronologically speaking, after all.



You do agree that Luke 21 is part of this same Discourse, correct? Assuming you do, let's look at some of this from that angle for a moment.


Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

In verse 24 it indicates that they shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. All of that is obviously meaning before the coming meant in Matthew 24:30. That first they have to fall by the edge of the sword, then be led captive into all nations, and remain captive into all nations until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled first. So IOW, the coming in question, it can't even happen until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled first. The times of the Gentiles can't be fulfilled until their captivity into all nations ends first, obviously.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Obviously, or at least to me anyway, what is meant in verse 25 and 26 is referring to some of the same things meant in Matthew 24:29 involving the following----shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


Obviously, or at least to me anyway, the coming meant here is meaning the same coming meant in Matthew 24:30, and that we have already determined from Luke 21, or at least I have, that this coming is not until sometime after the captivity into all nations ends first. This is further proved per the following.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

It matters where Jesus said this in the Discourse. He said it after what He said in Luke 21:20-27, which then has to mean that till all be fulfilled has to include all of the following first---And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Only after all of these events can this generation then pass away. This presents a major problem for Preterism if this means that the captivity into all nations have to end first. Obviously, that never ended in the first century since that it is the century that initially led to this happening to begin with. Meaning because of 70 AD.
 
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Hammster

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During our conversation here you have desperately attempted to change what the Bible actually says to make your form of Preterism work.

Our exchange here bears witness to the truth found plainly written in scripture.

I am glad you used the word "return", instead of "come" on one occasion, because in your mind that is how you have redefined the text.

I do not know what else I could point out in the scriptures, which prove beyond any doubt that He "came" as the Messiah riding on a donkey before the mission of taking the Gospel "first" to the Jews assigned in Matthew 10:5-23 was completed.

You asked for proof of the persecution, and Paul's testimony provided what you requested.

Now, you are still attempting to prove your position.

All of the unbiased witnesses here have seen the truth.

Now we will return to the Op.

--------------------------------------------

Why vaccine passports are a BAD idea:

.
Back to the OP? Okay. Who is the beast. He’s known before the mark is given. So who is he?
 
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Hammster

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I'm not arguing that it might be literal, maybe it is is, maybe it isn't, yet, that is irrelevant in this particular case. I'm arguing that the coming in verse 30 is meaning after the sun goes dark, whatever the sun going dark might be referring to. And since it appears you agree that the coming is after the sun goes dark, there is nothing involving that that we are in disagreement about, chronologically speaking, after all.



You do agree that Luke 21 is part of this same Discourse, correct? Assuming you do, let's look at some of this from that angle for a moment.


Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

In verse 24 it indicates that they shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. All of that is obviously meaning before the coming meant in Matthew 24:30. That first they have to fall by the edge of the sword, then be led captive into all nations, and remain captive into all nations until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled first. So IOW, the coming in question, it can't even happen until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled first. The times of the Gentiles can't be fulfilled until their captivity into all nations ends first, obviously.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Obviously, or at least to me anyway, what is meant in verse 25 and 26 is referring to some of the same things meant in Matthew 24:29 involving the following----shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


Obviously, or at least to me anyway, the coming meant here is meaning the same coming meant in Matthew 24:30, and that we have already determined from Luke 21, or at least I have, that this coming is not until sometime after the captivity into all nations ends first. This is further proved per the following.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

It matters where Jesus said this in the Discourse. He said it after what He said in Luke 21:20-27, which then has to mean that till all be fulfilled has to include all of the following first---And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Only after all of these events can this generation then pass away. This presents a major problem for Preterism if this means that the captivity into all nations have to end first. Obviously, that never ended in the first century since that it is the century that initially led to this happening to begin with. Meaning because of 70 AD.
I’m trying to figure out where it says that the captivity must end first.
 
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BABerean2

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Back to the OP? Okay. Who is the beast. He’s known before the mark is given. So who is he?

Your questions in this area are similar to your questions about His "coming" in Matthew 10:5-23.
When you are shown the truth found in scripture, you ignore it and ask the same question.

When you are shown the text which reveals the beast is a nation, you just ignore it and then continue to ask the same question.

--------------------------------------------

What is “the beast” of the Book of Revelation:


In the text below Babylon is that great city, which is the seat of the beast.
The beast is a nation that was, and was not, and now is again a nation.
The seat of that nation sits on seven mountains.

It is the nation now worshipped by many modern Christians, because they ignore Romans 2:28-29, and 1 John 2:22-23, and 2 John 1:7-11, and Revelation 2:9, and Revelation 3:9.


If you show what the Bible says on this issue, you will be condemned, or you will be ignored.

................................................................

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.


Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.


Rev_11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


Rev_13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.


Rev_13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.


Rev_13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.


Rev_13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?


Rev_13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.


Rev_13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.


Rev_13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.



Rev_14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.



Rev_16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,



Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.



Rev_17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

The Seven Hills of Jerusalem (askelm.com)


-------------------------------------------

There are two Jerusalems found in the Book of Revelation.
They are found below.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


.
 
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Hammster

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Your questions in this area are similar to your questions about His "coming" in Matthew 10:5-23.
When you are shown the truth found in scripture, you ignore it and ask the same question.

When you are shown the text which reveals the beast is a nation, you just ignore it and then continue to ask the same question.

--------------------------------------------

What is “the beast” of the Book of Revelation:


In the text below Babylon is that great city, which is the seat of the beast.
The beast is a nation that was, and was not, and now is again a nation.
The seat of that nation sits on seven mountains.

It is the nation now worshipped by many modern Christians, because they ignore Romans 2:28-29, and 1 John 2:22-23, and 2 John 1:7-11, and Revelation 2:9, and Revelation 3:9.


If you show what the Bible says on this issue, you will be condemned, or you will be ignored.

................................................................

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.


Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.


Rev_11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


Rev_13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.


Rev_13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.


Rev_13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.


Rev_13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?


Rev_13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.


Rev_13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.


Rev_13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.



Rev_14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.



Rev_16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,



Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.



Rev_17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.


-------------------------------------------

There are two Jerusalems found in the Book of Revelation.
They are found below.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


.
Can you just answer the question in your own words? I don’t mind the use of scripture, but just posting verses out of context doesn’t help, regardless of colors, bolding, and underlining.
 
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DavidPT

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I’m trying to figure out where it says that the captivity must end first.

That's obviously a logical deduction, the fact that it has to end eventually, otherwise one has to conclude that the captivity is neverending, which would be ludicrous. Why is it not reasonable that the times of the Gentiles include the time of the captivity into all nations? Did not Jesus say in the Discourse that this generation can't pass away until all is fulfilled first? How can that not also include the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled first, before this generation can pass away?
 
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Timtofly

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It revolves around AD 70 because that’s what He’s talking about. So it would be disingenuous of me to pretend otherwise.



The sun, moon, stars reference isn’t literal. If you look back to the OT, it’s decreation language. It’s used when God has judged a nation. That’s the same sense as used here. The leadership of Israel was judged by Christ. His coming on the clouds is a reference that the first century Jews would have understood as judgement.

The oracle concerning Egypt.
Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt;
The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence,
And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
— Isaiah 19:1


Exactly.
Rome did not fall apart nor was Rome judged in 70AD. Not even Israel fell apart. That happened when the Greeks and Romans took over, and allowed Edomites control of Israel. Not even symbolically did any government fall apart.

Rome did not fall apart into the 10 toes during the 70AD invasion. You have to at least get to the ten toes before the Second Coming. That would be the symbolic national destruction in the least symbolic use.
 
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DavidPT

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I’m trying to figure out where it says that the captivity must end first.

Too bad you're unable to debunk any of this, since it is unreasonable to think that the times of the Gentiles don't also include the time of the captivity into all nations, where that captivity didn't even begin until 70 AD happened first. Otherwise I might be more inclined to think you are correct rather than Jesus is correct instead.

In Luke 21:24, nations and Gentiles are the same Greek word ethnos. Who is it that is being led captive into all nations? Is it not the Jews? How then is it reasonable that the times of the Gentiles don't also include the time involved during the captivity into all nations? Of course it involves that.

Is one then to believe that Jesus was confused when He indicated that this generation can't pass away, till all be fulfilled first, and that even though this includes the times of the Gentiles, He was meaning within that generation He was currently living in at the time? There's no logic to that since the captivity into all nations did not end within the generation He was living in at the time. But it did begin within that generation of time, yet that doesn't fully satisfy what the text requires, that all must be fulfilled first before this generation can pass away. All includes the times of The Gentiles have to be fulfilled first. The times of the Gentiles also involve the time of the captivity into all nations. How can it not?
 
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