Is this story related to the Mark of the Beast?

[BABerean2]

This whole exchange leads me to believe that you can see the clear message of Matt 10, but it doesn’t fit your eschatology so you have to use the mental gymnastics to make it fit.

I was thinking the same thing about you when you tried to change the word "come" to "return".

My eschatology fits perfectly with what Paul said in Romans 1:16, when he said the Gospel was taken "first" to Israel.

You have yet to explain when that period of time occurred, and how long it lasted.

The answer is clearly found in Matthew 10:5-23, and Acts 10:36-38, and Galatians 1:14-18.

The Gospel was taken "first" to Israel for a period of about seven years, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.

See the recent book "The 70th Week of Daniel 9 DECODED" by David Wilcoxson, for proof of the above.

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[Hammster]

I was thinking the same thing about you when you tried to change the word "come" to "return".

Except that I admitted that I used the wrong word and have not made that mistake again. Iow, mine was a mistake in terms, not trying to make the verse say the opposite of what was stated.

My eschatology fits perfectly with what Paul said in Romans 1:16, when he said the Gospel was taken "first" to Israel.

But we are discussing that verse.

You have yet to explain when that period of time occurred, and how long it lasted.

You never asked.

The answer is clearly found in Matthew 10:5-23, and Acts 10:36-38, and Galatians 1:14-18.

The Gospel was taken "first" to Israel for a period of about seven years, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.

And that has nothing to do with Matthew 10:23. Who the gospel was taken to first isn’t in question. The point Jesus made was that they would make it to all of the cities in Israel prior to His coming.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

(I’m going to break this up since you are bringing up various things.)

The same way that angels (messengers) gather the elect today. They preach the gospel. See Romans 10. This is how Christ’s kingdom will continue to grow until He returns as the victorious king.

Jesus was talking about something that would happen at the coming of the Son of man. The gospel was preached and people were saved before 70 AD, so it can't be about that. The gathering of the elect is a one time event that happens at His coming at the end of the age. There is no indication whatsoever that it's talking about the elect being gathered over a long period of time. It's the same gathering of the elect that Paul wrote about in 1 Thess 4:13-17. It's a one time event which will happen at the second coming of Christ.

 

[Hammster]

Jesus was talking about something that would happen at the coming of the Son of man. The gospel was preached and people were saved before 70 AD, so it can't be about that. The gathering of the elect is a one time event that happens at His coming at the end of the age. There is no indication whatsoever that it's talking about the elect being gathered over a long period of time. It's the same gathering of the elect that Paul wrote about in 1 Thess 4:13-17. It's a one time event which will happen at the second coming of Christ.

You are reading your presuppositions into that passage. It doesn’t say that the gathering is a one time event.

1 Thes 4 does refer to the second coming. But Matthew 24 is referring to Christ’s judgement on Jerusalem.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, and say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.’ For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon!’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”
— Matthew 11:16-19


The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
— Matthew 12:41


Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. That is the way it will also be with this evil generation.”
— Matthew 12:45


And Jesus answered and said, “You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him here to Me.”
— Matthew 17:17


Sighing deeply in His spirit, He said, “Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation.”
— Mark 8:12


For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
— Mark 8:38


And He answered them and said, “O unbelieving generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him to Me!”
— Mark 9:19


Etc.

All of these have to do with the generation to whom He is speaking.

Yes, but their generation began basically from the beginning of time. If you read Matthew 23:35-36 you should notice that "this generation" was even responsible for the innocent blood of Abel. How could "this generation" only refer to those living at the time when Jesus was including Cain among "this generation"? Again, Jesus was referring to a type of people who were like the Pharisees (wicked, unbelieving, adulterous and sinful) when referring to "this generation", not just to people living at that time.

So, in Matthew 24:34 He was saying that an evil and adulterous type of people will be around until He comes at the end of the age. I believe you are missing that He indicated when "the generation" would pass away in Matthew 24:35. It will be when heaven and earth pass away. This lines up with 2 Peter 3:3-13 which indicates that heaven and earth will be burned up when He comes.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You are reading your presuppositions into that passage. It doesn’t say that the gathering is a one time event.

1 Thes 4 does refer to the second coming. But Matthew 24 is referring to Christ’s judgement on Jerusalem.

The gathering is also mentioned in Matthew 13:36-43 and Matthew 13:47-50 which both indicate that it happens at the end of the age. Matthew 24:3 indicates that His coming would be at the end of the age. So, yes, it does imply a one-time event rather than an ongoing event.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, but their generation began basically from the beginning of time. If you read Matthew 23:35-36 you should notice that "this generation" was even responsible for the innocent blood of Abel. How could "this generation" only refer to those living at the time when Jesus was including Cain among "this generation"? Again, Jesus was referring to a type of people who were like the Pharisees (wicked, unbelieving, adulterous and sinful) when referring to "this generation", not just to people living at that time.

So, in Matthew 24:34 He was saying that an evil and adulterous type of people will be around until He comes at the end of the age. I believe you are missing that He indicated when "the generation" would pass away in Matthew 24:35. It will be when heaven and earth pass away. This lines up with 2 Peter 3:3-13 which indicates that heaven and earth will be burned up when He comes.

Here’s the reference you brought up.


“Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
— Matthew 23:34-35

Do you see any reference to “your generation”? I posted multiple verses (and not all of them) where “your generation” means the generation that He’s speaking to. You have to completely ignore that in Matt 24 in order to make your eschatology work. The plain reading (especially if you let scripture interpret scripture) is that He’s talking to that generation.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Not knowing the day or hour doesn’t mean that He didn’t know that it would happen within a generation. A pregnant woman doesn’t know the day or hour their child will be born, but she does know the general timeframe.

Why would He even bother saying no one knows the day or hour if He was referring to Jerusalem's destruction? He said elsewhere that His coming would be like a thief in the night (unexpected - can't see it coming before it happens). How does that describe what happened in 70 AD? People could see that coming before it happened. Jesus said they would know that was about to happen when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies (Luke 20:24). That's completely different than Him coming like a thief in the night.

Preterists like yourself, as well as futurists, don't recognize that Jesus talked about both what would occur locally in the relatively near future (in Jerusalem - turned out to be 70 AD) as well as what would happen after that up until He comes at the end of the age. He was asked two questions. One was when the temple buildings would be destroyed and the other was about His coming at the end of the age.

I don't doubt that the disciples would have assumed that both would happen at the same time, but Jesus wouldn't answer their questions based on their faulty assumptions. He answered them based on what He knew would happen to Jerusalem and what He knew would happen globally upon His coming at the end of the age.

 

[Hammster]

The gathering is also mentioned in Matthew 13:36-43 and Matthew 13:47-50 which both indicate that it happens at the end of the age. Matthew 24:3 indicates that His coming would be at the end of the age. So, yes, it does imply a one-time event rather than an ongoing event.

Your are still assuming that Matt 24 is about the second coming. It isn’t. The text doesn’t support that.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Here’s the reference you brought up.


“Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
— Matthew 23:34-35

Do you see any reference to “your generation”? I posted multiple verses (and not all of them) where “your generation” means the generation that He’s speaking to. You have to completely ignore that in Matt 24 in order to make your eschatology work. The plain reading (especially if you let scripture interpret scripture) is that He’s talking to that generation.

What are you talking about? I didn't say anything about "your generation". You're apparently not even reading what I'm saying carefully. I'm saying that "this generation" is a type of people (wicked, adulterous, etc.). Do you understand that the Greek word "genea" can be used in that way rather than referring to a period of time or people living during a certain time?

 

[Hammster]

Why would He even bother saying no one knows the day or hour if He was referring to Jerusalem's destruction? He said elsewhere that His coming would be like a thief in the night (unexpected - can't see it coming before it happens). How does that describe what happened in 70 AD? People could see that coming before it happened. Jesus said they would know that was about to happen when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies (Luke 20:24). That's completely different than Him coming like a thief in the night.

Preterists like yourself, as well as futurists, don't recognize that Jesus talked about both what would occur locally in the relatively near future (in Jerusalem - turned out to be 70 AD) as well as what would happen after that up until He comes at the end of the age. He was asked two questions. One was when the temple buildings would be destroyed and the other was about His coming at the end of the age.

I don't doubt that the disciples would have assumed that both would happen at the same time, but Jesus wouldn't answer their questions based on their faulty assumptions. He answered them based on what He knew would happen to Jerusalem and what He knew would happen globally upon His coming at the end of the age.

You are still assuming that the end of the age is the second coming. You are reading your presuppositions into the text. You can’t get that from the plain reading.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Your are still assuming that Matt 24 is about the second coming. It isn’t. The text doesn’t support that.

Yes, it absolutely does. The gathering of the elect is the same gathering of the elect that Paul wrote about in 1 Thess 4:13-17. There is no basis for thinking otherwise. There is only one second coming of Christ and Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thess 4:13-17 both describe it in terms of what will happen to believers when He comes.

 

[Hammster]

What are you talking about? I didn't say anything about "your generation". You're apparently not even reading what I'm saying carefully. I'm saying that "this generation" is a type of people (wicked, adulterous, etc.). Do you understand that the Greek word "genea" can be used in that way rather than referring to a period of time or people living during a certain time?

Well, here’s what you said.

“Yes, but their generation began basically from the beginning of time. If you read Matthew 23:35-36 you should notice that "this generation" was even responsible for the innocent blood of Abel.”

So I posted the text. No mention of generation. So I’m going with what the text actually says. I’m not sure what you are doing.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You are still assuming that the end of the age is the second coming. You are reading your presuppositions into the text. You can’t get that from the plain reading.

I'm using scripture to interpret scripture. Does Mathew 24:3 not indicate that His coming would occur at the end of the age? You don't believe the disciples were asking about His coming and then separately asking about the end of the age, do you?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Well, here’s what you said.

“Yes, but their generation began basically from the beginning of time. If you read Matthew 23:35-36 you should notice that "this generation" was even responsible for the innocent blood of Abel.”

So I posted the text. No mention of generation. So I’m going with what the text actually says. I’m not sure what you are doing.

What are you talking about?

Matthew 23:35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

Edit: Okay, I see what happened here. I specifically had mentioned Matthew 23:35-36, but for some reason you quoted Matthew 23:34-35.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, it absolutely does. The gathering of the elect is the same gathering of the elect that Paul wrote about in 1 Thess 4:13-17. There is no basis for thinking otherwise. There is only one second coming of Christ and Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thess 4:13-17 both describe it in terms of what will happen to believers when He comes.

Once again, you are making an assumption that Matt 24 is about the second coming. You have to read your view into it to come to that conclusion.

 

[Hammster]

I'm using scripture to interpret scripture. Does Mathew 24:3 not indicate that His coming would occur at the end of the age? You don't believe the disciples were asking about His coming and then separately asking about the end of the age, do you?

You are assuming that “coming” means second coming. “Coming” is all over scripture, and mostly as judgement. Just read the letters to the seven churches and you’ll see it used multiple times, and none concerning His second coming.

 

[Hammster]

What are you talking about?

Matthew 23:35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

Edit: Okay, I see what happened here. I specifically had mentioned Matthew 23:35-36, but for some reason you quoted Matthew 23:34-35.

Okay, I did misquote. My bad. However, he’s not lumping the previous generations in with that one. He’s saying that they are acting like the generations of old, their guilt is the same and they too will face judgment (the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You are assuming that “coming” means second coming. “Coming” is all over scripture, and mostly as judgement. Just read the letters to the seven churches and you’ll see it used multiple times, and none concerning His second coming.

No, I'm not assuming that. I'm coming to that conclusion because passages like Matthew 24:29-31 and Matthew 24:35-39 match up with passages like 1 Thess 4:13-17 and 2 Peter 3:3-13 which are obviously about the second coming.

Also, it makes no sense to think of what happened in 70 AD as a case of Christ coming as a thief (suddenly and unexpectedly, as He indicated in Matt 24:36-51).

 

[Hammster]

No, I'm not assuming that. I'm coming to that conclusion because passages like Matthew 24:29-31 and Matthew 24:35-39 match up with passages like 1 Thess 4:13-17 and 2 Peter 3:3-13 which are obviously about the second coming.

Also, it makes no sense to think of what happened in 70 AD as a case of Christ coming as a thief (suddenly and unexpectedly), as I pointed out before.

Sorry, but your assumptions are out of whack. The whole thing started in chapter 23. He was passing judgement on Israel. He said the temple would be destroyed. The disciples asked when it would be, and what to look for. He repeatedly said “you”. (You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.
— Matthew 24:6

“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
— Matthew 24:15

But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
— Matthew 24:20

Behold, I have told you in advance.
— Matthew 24:25)

And one more “you”.


“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:32-34

Now, had He said “they” in those places, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. But it’s clear that the events He described were for that generation, and that they needed to be aware.