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Is this story related to the Mark of the Beast?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by BABerean2, Apr 5, 2021.

  1. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Even if the times of the Gentiles ended within the generation Jesus was living in at the time, it still agrees with what I'm arguing, and that is, that it has to be one of the things included that have to be fulfilled before this generation can pass away. What we need to be asking ourselves first, what exactly is meant by the times of the Gentiles to begin with?

    Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

    This appears to be connected with it. But does this have anything to do with 70 AD? Preterists apparently think so, but I don't think John did. This 42 months in question obviously involve the same 42 months found recorded in Revelation 13, which means the beast has to have ascended out of the pit before these 42 months can even be fulfilled.

    Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


    This obviously doesn't match anything involving 70 AD. The 2Ws, whoever or whatever they are meaning, are obviously the good guys. In 70 AD the unbelieving Jews remaining in Jerusalem were the bad guys, yet Revelation 11:7 doesn't involve making war with any bad guys, it involves making war with the good guys. Nor anywhere in Revelation 11 and Revelation 13 does it involve making war with the bad guys, the bad guys meaning the unbelieving Jews in 70 AD.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  2. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    No, the point is that the verse can be translated in the way that the times of Gentiles will not end. They are final times for ever. The religious kingdom of Israel and the Old Covenant will never return.
     
  3. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    How can they not end if the text indicates they can by saying until fulfilled? That translation you submitted is apparently going over my head because I just don't get it.
     
  4. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Thats the fun with Greek. You can find so many variants and translate it in so many ways that its not good to be too dogmatic about some specific reading.
     
  5. Taodeching

    Taodeching Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure people can. Their bias and ideas get in the way so much so that they think their modern ideas was how it was understood all the time. It is a skill to see the passages the way that people saw them in times past, one that even I at one time was not capable of.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  6. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    In Revelation 1:20 Jesus Christ said "candlesticks" are a symbol of the churches in the Book of Revelation.

    In Romans 11 Paul used the Olive tree made up of both cultivated branches, and wild branches to be a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites, and Gentiles grafted together into the same Church.

    .
     
  7. grafted branch

    grafted branch Active Member Supporter

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    Revelation 1:20 states the 7 candlesticks are the 7 churches; 1 candlestick per church. Revelation 2 and 3 give the names and descriptions of the churches. Revelation 2:5 warns that a churches candlestick can be removed. Why do you suppose that there are only 2 candlesticks (churches) in Revelation 11:4 and not 7?
    So I agree with you that Israel and Gentile have been grafted into one Church. This should be seen as one candlestick but Revelation 11:4 has 2 candlesticks. So either the 2 witnesses prophesy before the grafting or perhaps it refers to a time when the Gentiles are cut off. If the 2 witnesses are currently prophesying then there is also currently a distinction being made between Jew and Gentile.
     
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The early Church was often sent out in groups of two, just as many modern churches do today.
    At least two witnesses to the truth of the Gospel.

    2Co_13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

    .
     
  9. Hammster

    Hammster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I did already, and you disagreed. The thing to keep in mind is that He says very specifically


    And He said, “See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not go after them. When you hear of wars and disturbances, do not be terrified; for these things must take place first, but the end does not follow immediately.” Then He continued by saying to them, “Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be great earthquakes, and in various places plagues and famines; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. “But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name’s sake. It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony. So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to defend yourselves; for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute. But you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death, and you will be hated by all because of My name. Yet not a hair of your head will perish. By your endurance you will gain your lives. “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. “There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” Then He told them a parable: “Behold the fig tree and all the trees; as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.
    Luke 21:8-32

    There’s no indication in the text that He had anyone else in mind besides the generation He was taking to.

    And He didn’t just say it to His disciples.


    But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
    Matthew 26:63-64

    It’s definitely a first century event.
     
  10. Hammster

    Hammster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Hold it. He doesn’t say that He returned to the planet. But I will show you what He meant by people seeing Him in the clouds.


    The oracle concerning Egypt.
    Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt;
    The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence,
    And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
    Isaiah 19:1

    Did anyone see Jesus? Or is this judgement language against Egypt? Same language is used in both.
     
  11. Hammster

    Hammster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    The falling of the sun, moon, and stars is decreation language used to show that a nation had been judged. And Israel was a nation.


    “Get up, take the Child and His mother, and go into the land of Israel; for those who sought the Child’s life are dead.”
    Matthew 2:20

    Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, “Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel.
    Matthew 8:10

    “But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.
    Matthew 10:23

    etc. Israel may not have been a nation in the way you think. But it wasn’t written to you, it was written to the Jews. And that’s how they thought (even Jesus).
     
  12. Hammster

    Hammster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Same here.
     
  13. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    That is your explanation of Luke 21:24b-28 ???

    You think the language in Isaiah 19:1 is the same ???

    We greatly appreciate you sharing your opinion with us.

    Can you explain when the times of the Gentiles came to fullness in Luke 21:24b ?

    Can you show us a passage which you believe is about Christ's Second Coming?

    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  14. Hammster

    Hammster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Yes. There are a lot of OT callbacks in the Olivet discourse. That’s why we let scripture interpret scripture, not the media.

    Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.
    Revelation 11:2

    But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
    1 Corinthians 15:20-28
     
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    And where is the temple of God in Revelation 11?

    Is it found in the city of verse 8, or is it found in verse 19?

    Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
    Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
    Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
    Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
    Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
    Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
    Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
    Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
    Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
    Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
    Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
    Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
    Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
    Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

    .
     
  16. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Except they had already been judged and part of the nation of Rome. That is the point. Now they are a Nation again, even if you do not acknowledge that. Now once again will see a downfall.
     
  17. Hammster

    Hammster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    You are reading this as a first century Jew. I actually gave you the verses to show that they were a nation as understood by the first century Jew. It was written for us, no to us.
     
  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
  19. Hammster

    Hammster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Does this relate to any of the discussions we are having?
     
  20. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Why would it need to ascend out of the pit more than once? While it's in the pit, is it in it against it's will, or is it in it and can come and go as it pleases, anytime it wants to?

    My point had mainly to do with that when JTB was alive, the beast would have been in the pit at the time, which also means there was a time when the beast wasn't in the pit at all. The chronology would have to be, and that this involves thousands of years over all, initially he is not in the pit, then he is, then he no longer is. The chronology is not instead--- initially he is not in the pit, then he is, then he no longer is, then he is yet again, then he is no longer in the pit yet again, so on and so on.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
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