Is this an Orthodox approach to pagan conversion?

[joyfulthanks]

I found the following quote while reading the history of Anglicanism at Wikipedia:

"Pope Gregory issued more practicable mandates concerning heathen temples and usages: he desired that temples become consecrated to Christian service and asked Augustine to transform pagan practices, so far as possible, into dedication ceremonies or feasts of martyrs, since "he who would climb to a lofty height must go up by steps, not leaps" (letter of Gregory to Mellitus, in Bede, i, 30)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Church_of_England

This was circa 600 - i.e., pre-schism. I know that the Roman Catholic Church's approach has included inculturation down to the present day (having read about it in the Catechism). Is this something that is also encouraged by Orthodoxy?

With love in Christ,
Grace

 

[Akathist]

I am not qualified to give you a full answer.

However, I do know that it is NOT current practice in the Orthodox church to assimilate any new practices officially into the Liturgy or other basic services.

 

[joyfulthanks]

I am not qualified to give you a full answer.

However, I do know that it is NOT current practice in the Orthodox church to assimilate any new practices officially into the Liturgy or other basic services.

I should have phrased my question differently. Sorry about that. I guess what I really meant to ask was, has this historically been the approach used by the Orthodox Church when dealing with pagan cultures and religious rites?

 

[MariaRegina]

Not to my knowledge.

The only thing that Orthodox do is to translate from the Greek or Slovanic into the native languages.

When the Orthodox established the first mission parishes in Indonesia, according to the publication at OCMC, they used vestments made from the same color patterns as the native color schemes. This is the only accommodation that I have found.

 

[tdcharles]

I found the following quote while reading the history of Anglicanism at Wikipedia:

"Pope Gregory issued more practicable mandates concerning heathen temples and usages: he desired that temples become consecrated to Christian service and asked Augustine to transform pagan practices, so far as possible, into dedication ceremonies or feasts of martyrs, since "he who would climb to a lofty height must go up by steps, not leaps" (letter of Gregory to Mellitus, in Bede, i, 30)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Church_of_England

This was circa 600 - i.e., pre-schism. I know that the assimilation of pagan cultural and even religious practices has been encouraged up to the present day within Roman Catholicism (having read about it in the Catechism). Is this something that is also encouraged by Orthodoxy?

With love in Christ,
Grace

This was in 600 AD, the theology and liturgy had long been established in Western Christianity.

I know that the assimilation of pagan cultural and even religious practices has been encouraged up to the present day within Roman Catholicism (having read about it in the Catechism)

Please provide a paragraph number.

 

[walking.away.123]

In China, fruit is often offered on Buddhist/Daoist alters for the dead. Once a visiting Orthodox priest had a secretive service in a hotel room including a memorial service. Since koliva was impossible to get, they used fruit. If I remember correctly, the priest did the memorial service at this time to coincide with the Chinese Tomb Sweeping day, in which traditional Chinese reverence the dead. Those at the hotel were probably all Orthodox, so I'm sure everyone knew that the fruit was not being offered to ghosts as others believe. This is probably about as far as Orthodox would go with enculturation.
If you are really interested in how Orthodoxy meets other cultures you can check out the book Orthodox Alaska, or the lectures of Michel Oleska (sp?)
S.

 

[jameseb]

Hello GraceMercyPeace

I can't address the question put forth in the OP (I'm just not familiar with the subject), but I generally take Wikipedia with a grain of salt - I'm not a particular fan of such open-source enterprises.

As the former editor in chief of Encyclopedia Britannica put it, "[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]The user who visits Wikipedia to learn about some subject, to confirm some matter of fact, is rather in the position of a visitor to a public restroom. It may be obviously dirty, so that he knows to exercise great care, or it may seem fairly clean, so that he may be lulled into a false sense of security. What he certainly does not know is who has used the facilities before him."[/font]

 

[Kolya]

As the former editor in chief of Encyclopedia Britannica put it, "[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]The user who visits Wikipedia to learn about some subject, to confirm some matter of fact, is rather in the position of a visitor to a public restroom. It may be obviously dirty, so that he knows to exercise great care, or it may seem fairly clean, so that he may be lulled into a false sense of security. What he certainly does not know is who has used the facilities before him."[/font]

Off topic/
Great quote James. I like it!
Just a question - you prefer Windows IE or Firefox?

Back to topic/

 

[Eusebios]

GMP,
When Orthodoxy first came to the North AMerican Continent,(in Alaska) those revered Saints did in fact encourage those cultural practices not directly in conflict with Holy Tradition and the scriptures to continue. Orthodox generally do not attempt to homogenize culture, but rather seek to create an Orthodox mindset and praxis within the framework of the culture(s) encountered.
Hope that adds some clarification.
In Xp,
Eusebios.

 

[joyfulthanks]

Please provide a paragraph number.

CCC 854 - "Missionary endeavor requires patience. It begins with the proclamation of the Gospel to people and groups who do not yet believe in Christ, continues with the establishment of Christian communities that are "a sign of God's presence in the world," and lead to the foundation of local churches. It must involve a process of inculturation if the Gospel is to take flesh in each people's culture. There will be times of defeat. "With regard to individuals, groups, and peoples it is only by degrees that [the Church] touches and penetrates them, and so receives them into a fullness which is Catholic.

from CCC 856 - "The missionary task implies a respectful dialogue with those who do not yet accept the Gospel. Believers can profit from this dialogue by learning to appreciate better "those elements of truth and grace which are found among peoples, and which are, as it were, a secret presence of God."

(Italics in both cases are from the original, underlining is mine.)

As I understand it, this has long been a practice of the Catholic Church - as the quote in the OP demonstrates. An example would be a feast to a certain local diety being retooled into the feast of a particular saint in order to help the locals "make the transition," so to speak.

With love in Christ,
Grace

 

[joyfulthanks]

Thanks all. I've been giving rep points as "thank you's" to those who take the trouble to answer my questions, but unfortunately the rep nazis won't let me rep Eusebios and Aria again!

Please accept my thanks...

 

[Padraig]

I should have phrased my question differently. Sorry about that. I guess what I really meant to ask was, has this historically been the approach used by the Orthodox Church when dealing with pagan cultures and religious rites?

I suppose we would have to ask what manner of "enculturation" is going on. It is certainly true that the Church has different expressions and practices within a given culture that won't "match" another culture's expression. We would have to say that the Faith is not altered in any way, but liturgical and practical expression of that Faith may reflect the local "flavor." We see differences between Greek and Russian liturgical and pietistic practices for example.

To say that the culture the Church finds itself isn't incorporated into its liturgical life portrays a view of the Church that isn't really holistic. The Church has always manifested the fullness of the culture, throwing out what is bad, and keeping and incorporating what is good. There are many different pietistic practices that over time find their expression in the worship of the Church. This is what makes the Church truly Catholic, truly universal, truly all things to all people.

This manifestation of the culture is most prominently reflected in the musical style of a given community. Also, little details like closing and opening doors, the manner of Entrances, the number and size of prosphora, the language (obviously), hymns or antiphons. The liturgical life of the Church is actually quite adaptable to a given culture. It is dynamic. It has always been. In fact it has only been recently (600 years I think) that everyone has used the Byzantine Liturgies of St John Chrysostom and St Basil. I think Jerusalem still uses the Liturgy of St James on certain occasions.

All that to say that we can definitively say that each Church has its own "style" or "interpretation" (we could successfully use the world enculturation) of the liturgical expression of the universal Church.

Hope this helps and adds to the discussion.

 

[joyfulthanks]

Hope this helps and adds to the discussion.

Yes, I think it does. Thanks!

In the book of Revelation (speaking of the New Jerusalem) it says: "And the nations shall walk by its light [the light of the glory of God in the midst of the New Jerusalem], and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it. Rev. 21:24 (NASB).

So I'm thinking inculturation, yes certainly, insofar as the culture can give glory unto God.

But what about the integration of religious practices? Think of the Old Testament. Every time it mentions other religions, God instructs the Jews to go in and completely destroy everything having to do with them. Smash the Asherah poles, tear down the altars, etc. He never, ever that I can think of instructs them to make these places of former pagan worship into new Jewish places of worship, or Judaize any of their religious practices.

Is Orthodoxy in favor of inculturation only, or does it go farther - also Christianizing some local religious customs?

With love in Christ,
Grace

 

[Marjorie]

I think the difference between the OT and the NT is the incarnation on this issue. God by becoming man sanctified humanity, just as the Church going into different cultures can sanctify the culture instead of destroying it. One book I really want to read is Orthodox Alaska: A Theology of Mission-- it talks a lot about this (I read some of it while at church.)

In IC XC,
Marjorie

 

[Padraig]

Yes, I think it does. Thanks!

In the book of Revelation (speaking of the New Jerusalem) it says: "And the nations shall walk by its light [the light of the glory of God in the midst of the New Jerusalem], and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it. Rev. 21:24 (NASB).

So I'm thinking inculturation, yes certainly, insofar as the culture can give glory unto God.

But what about the integration of religious practices? Think of the Old Testament. Every time it mentions other religions, God instructs the Jews to go in and completely destroy everything having to do with them. Smash the Asherah poles, tear down the altars, etc. He never, ever that I can think of instructs them to make these places of former pagan worship into new Jewish places of worship, or Judaize any of their religious practices.

Is Orthodoxy in favor of inculturation only, or does it go farther - also Christianizing some local religious customs?

With love in Christ,
Grace

We can look at a couple of things here. Firstly, in the accounts of the Israelites, we have to not only look at the historical aspect, but also an allegorical point of view. We see the struggle of God's people as our own struggle. We see their continual abandonment of God as our continual abandonment of God. We go "awhoring" as they did. Certainly, the people of God, who have the fullness of the Truth, the fullness of the revelation of God, participation in Him must not seek other religions for revelation, for communion.

Having said that, however, let us look at the conversion of pagan cultures, which is what I think the OP was about. The stories of the Israelites are the stories of people who had God, they were/are the people of God, God's Church. In this sense, in order to keep them pure they must not allow these other faiths to "intermarry" into the fullness of God. I suggest reading St Gregory of Nyssa's The Life of Moses to get a better understanding of how we should view the accounts of the Hebrews in the Old Testament.

Now let us look at the evangelistic practices of the Apostles, namely St Paul. St Paul goes to Athens, tells them that he knows they are a "religious people," and sees that they have erected a monument to the "Unknown God." He then reveals this unknown god to them. This shows them that they were somewhat on the right track. He showed them the fulfillment of their faith. This has been the way Orthodoxy approaches the various cultures.

The conversion of the Celts is another example. The Celtic faith had many similarities to the Christian faith. The missionaries took what was there and taught the people how Christ had fulfilled it. And here we must recognize what Christ has done. Christ, in His self-revelation, in His revealing the invisible Father, has destroyed religion once and for all. All religion seeks the truth, the touch with the divine, whatever that may be. In Christ, all religion finds its ultimate meaning. This does not mean there are many paths to the Truth. Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, but by Him. What this does mean, however, that the truth these religions seek to find are realized, fulfilled in Christ.

It is in Christ that all things hold together. It is in Christ that all things are made. It is in Christ that man approaches the unapproachable, and is given to partake in the life of God Himself. At the advent of Christ, religion became an obsolete concept. It has been said many times by many people, but it is worth saying again: Christ did not come to bring religion. Christ came to reveal the Kingdom of God, to usher in the New Life, the restoration of all that is, to reveal not only what it is to be God, but what it is to be human.

In converting the pagans, we must recognize the basic intent of their religion is to find the truth. There will be some beliefs that are correct, there will be some that are wrong, and there will be some that are almost right. It is the missionary's calling to show them that what they've been striving for, what they've been lacking is Christ. This may indeed keep some of their "pagan beliefs" intact because those beliefs were correct to begin with. It will most assuredly mean they give up some of their beliefs though.

What we find, if we take the time to look, is that all religion throughout history share some basic fundamental principles. We also find that many of these pagan beliefs are not only compatible with Christ, but are in fact Christian. It would only be natural to embrace the truths of a culture and showing them the fulfillment in Christ instead of destroying everything and building it from scratch. Forced conversion is never a solution.

Hope this helps

Just as an edit, I would add that the accounts of the Hebrews in the Old Testament are not stories of conversion. There wasn't really an "evangelism" going on. The texts aren't really concerned with the preaching of the Gospel in large part because, as Marjorie noted, of the Incarnation.

 

[tdcharles]

CCC 854 - "Missionary endeavor requires patience. It begins with the proclamation of the Gospel to people and groups who do not yet believe in Christ, continues with the establishment of Christian communities that are "a sign of God's presence in the world," and lead to the foundation of local churches. It must involve a process of inculturation if the Gospel is to take flesh in each people's culture. There will be times of defeat. "With regard to individuals, groups, and peoples it is only by degrees that [the Church] touches and penetrates them, and so receives them into a fullness which is Catholic.

from CCC 856 - "The missionary task implies a respectful dialogue with those who do not yet accept the Gospel. Believers can profit from this dialogue by learning to appreciate better "those elements of truth and grace which are found among peoples, and which are, as it were, a secret presence of God."

This is what you said GMP:

I know that the assimilation of pagan cultural and even religious practices has been encouraged up to the present day within Roman Catholicism (having read about it in the Catechism).

That is not what the Catechism says. I don't appreciate it because you're being dishonest to the readers of TAW.

 

[Padraig]

That is not what the Catechism says. I don't appreciate it because you're being dishonest to the readers of TAW.

I really don't think GMP was trying to be purposefully dishonest. I think a little patience might be in order as the OP'er is trying to understand something that is unfamiliar. If the CCC has been read wrong, it can be said politely.

kevin

 

[tdcharles]

I really don't think GMP was trying to be purposefully dishonest. I think a little patience might be in order as the OP'er is trying to understand something that is unfamiliar. If the CCC has been read wrong, it can be said politely.

kevin

You're right. GMP, I apologize if I sounded harsh.

 

[joyfulthanks]

This is what you said GMP:

That is not what the Catechism says. I don't appreciate it because you're being dishonest to the readers of TAW.

I'm very sorry. I wasn't trying to say something that the Catechism doesn't say. I didn't have it in front of me at the time I posted that, and since I'm not Catholic, I can't quote it from memory or anything.

It wasn't my intention to paint Catholicism in a bad light. Had I been trying to intentionally misrepresent Catholicism, I wouldn't have looked up the passage later and quoted it verbatim in my second post. I was simply trying to express what I had read in the Catechism as I understood it. In using the word "assimilation," I chose the wrong word. Please forgive me.

With love in Christ,
Grace

 

[joyfulthanks]

tdcharles -

Apparently, we simulposted. No offense taken here. I hope you feel the same.

With love in Christ,
Grace