Struggling in conversion to Orthodoxy

[TheLostCoin]

So, it seems possible that - probably in a month - I will become a Catechumen of the Church.

However, as I'm approaching this date, I have been attacked with all kinds of fleshly temptations that have let me reach levels of sin that - recently - put me in a place of sadness of spiritual despair I didn't think was possible. I'm pulling myself (with God's Grace) out of the place which I put myself into, but it's been harsh.

More than this, I have been hit with fear. Thoughts keep coming in my head - "What if I'm wrong?"

As you probably know, the Roman Catholic Church believes that all those who were members and leave the Church are damned.

In my approach to Orthodoxy versus Catholicism, I've tried to use objective facts as criterion from which I could figure this situation out, and I don't see how Roman Catholicism is reconcilable with pre-schism history or even post-schism history.

For example, why did the 5th Ecumenical Council think they could excommunicate a Pope? Why did the 6th Ecumenical Council condemn Honorius - explicitly - as a heretic? Why is it the case that even though Popes would hold synods in Italy excommunicating people, the Ecumenical Councils in the East would judge them afresh like they were in good standing months after these synods (Celestine and Nestorius in Ephesus, Leo and Dioscorus in Chalcedon)? Pope John VIII condemning the Filioque? Whether Saint Peter really was "the first Bishop of Rome", etc.

More than this, Orthodoxy has a consistent, Holy Spirituality that Roman Catholicism does not have. In Roman Catholicism, there seems to be a disconnect between "Love" and "Tradition," as the two are separate, incompatible entities. You'll either be a Roman Catholic who views the Church Fathers as heretic-burning lawless people, or you'll be a Roman Catholic that plays the game of judging who's the heretic going to hell. Whereas in Orthodoxy the two (Love and Tradition) cannot be separated. I also know that in Orthodoxy, I could go to any Priest and trust them, rather than playing the game of "who is the heretic?." Pope Francis' Papacy has also demonstrated that the Gates of Hell have prevailed against their Church - how could it be that someone like Pope John Paul II, who kissed the Quran and asked Saint John the Baptist to protect Islam, or someone like Mother Teresa, who prayed in Buddhist Temples, publicly venerated and prayed to Gandhi, and sent her sisters to a Benedictine Monk who integrated Hindu rituals into Christianity, are infallibly canonized as Saints? How can it be that the Roman Catholic Church has always held the "death penalty as immoral in all situations?", according to the infallible Catechism of the Catholic Church?

However, despite this, I still have genuine fear. What if all my interpretations of history are wrong? And why is it the case that Pope Leo and Pope Gregory seemed to hold they could "annul" synods not in their jurisdiction? What does Saint Gregory mean by "Who can doubt that Constantinople is subject to the Apostolic See?" Why is Filioque, Purgatory, and (seemingly) Papal Supremacy there in history so early (4th - 6th century)?


What if I'm condemned? What if I'm missing something?

I don't think I could morally leave the Orthodox Church, as I could be sinning, but...I still have fear, and I have to ask the question - what if this fear is genuine from the Holy Spirit telling me to leave Orthodoxy, and this fear isn't just Satan trying to prevent me from joining the Church?

I could ask for your prayers, and I wonder if anybody else here has had similar experiences and could share it.

 

[truefiction1]

So, it seems possible that - probably in a month - I will become a Catechumen of the Church.

However, as I'm approaching this date, I have been attacked with all kinds of fleshly temptations that have let me reach levels of sin that - recently - put me in a place of sadness of spiritual despair I didn't think was possible. I'm pulling myself (with God's Grace) out of the place which I put myself into, but it's been harsh.

More than this, I have been hit with fear. Thoughts keep coming in my head - "What if I'm wrong?"

As you probably know, the Roman Catholic Church believes that all those who were members and leave the Church are damned.

In my approach to Orthodoxy versus Catholicism, I've tried to use objective facts as criterion from which I could figure this situation out, and I don't see how Roman Catholicism is reconcilable with pre-schism history or even post-schism history.

For example, why did the 5th Ecumenical Council think they could excommunicate a Pope? Why did the 6th Ecumenical Council condemn Honorius - explicitly - as a heretic? Why is it the case that even though Popes would hold synods in Italy excommunicating people, the Ecumenical Councils in the East would judge them afresh like they were in good standing months after these synods (Celestine and Nestorius in Ephesus, Leo and Dioscorus in Chalcedon)? Pope John VIII condemning the Filioque? Whether Saint Peter really was "the first Bishop of Rome", etc.

More than this, Orthodoxy has a consistent, Holy Spirituality that Roman Catholicism does not have. In Roman Catholicism, there seems to be a disconnect between "Love" and "Tradition," as the two are separate, incompatible entities. You'll either be a Roman Catholic who views the Church Fathers as heretic-burning lawless people, or you'll be a Roman Catholic that plays the game of judging who's the heretic going to hell. Whereas in Orthodoxy the two (Love and Tradition) cannot be separated. I also know that in Orthodoxy, I could go to any Priest and trust them, rather than playing the game of "who is the heretic?." Pope Francis' Papacy has also demonstrated that the Gates of Hell have prevailed against their Church - how could it be that someone like Pope John Paul II, who kissed the Quran and asked Saint John the Baptist to protect Islam, or someone like Mother Teresa, who prayed in Buddhist Temples, publicly venerated and prayed to Gandhi, and sent her sisters to a Benedictine Monk who integrated Hindu rituals into Christianity, are infallibly canonized as Saints? How can it be that the Roman Catholic Church has always held the "death penalty as immoral in all situations?", according to the infallible Catechism of the Catholic Church?

However, despite this, I still have fear. What if all my interpretations of history are wrong? And why is it the case that Pope Leo and Pope Gregory seemed to hold they could "annul" synods not in their jurisdiction? What does Saint Gregory mean by "Who can doubt that Constantinople is subject to the Apostolic See?" Why is Filioque, Purgatory, and (seemingly) Papal Supremacy there in history so early (4th - 6th century)?


What if I'm condemned? What if I'm missing something?

I don't think I could morally leave the Orthodox Church, as I could be sinning, but...I still have fear, and I have to ask the question - what if this fear is genuine from the Holy Spirit telling me to leave Orthodoxy, and this fear isn't just Satan trying to prevent me from joining the Church?

I could ask for your prayers, and I wonder if anybody else here has had similar experiences and could share it.

I had a similar showdown with the fear that Jehovah's witness claims were true and that Orthodox Christianity was the great harlot. You're merely being attacked by malevolent spirits during this critical juncture in your spiritual life, and the emotional/physical stress that you're inducing in yourself over the question of which way you should go is likely the cause of any sorts of overactive physical passions/desires you're currently afflicted with. This is expected and not something you ought to be overly worried about. What you need is to receive the peace of Christ, by the Holy Spirit. I do hope that you have a grace-filled spiritual father who will be sensitive to what you're going through, so that you may find answers for yourself through his help.

 

[“Paisios”]

So, it seems possible that - probably in a month - I will become a Catechumen of the Church.

However, as I'm approaching this date, I have been attacked with all kinds of fleshly temptations that have let me reach levels of sin that - recently - put me in a place of sadness of spiritual despair I didn't think was possible. I'm pulling myself (with God's Grace) out of the place which I put myself into, but it's been harsh.

More than this, I have been hit with fear. Thoughts keep coming in my head - "What if I'm wrong?"

As you probably know, the Roman Catholic Church believes that all those who were members and leave the Church are damned.

In my approach to Orthodoxy versus Catholicism, I've tried to use objective facts as criterion from which I could figure this situation out, and I don't see how Roman Catholicism is reconcilable with pre-schism history or even post-schism history.

For example, why did the 5th Ecumenical Council think they could excommunicate a Pope? Why did the 6th Ecumenical Council condemn Honorius - explicitly - as a heretic? Why is it the case that even though Popes would hold synods in Italy excommunicating people, the Ecumenical Councils in the East would judge them afresh like they were in good standing months after these synods (Celestine and Nestorius in Ephesus, Leo and Dioscorus in Chalcedon)? Pope John VIII condemning the Filioque? Whether Saint Peter really was "the first Bishop of Rome", etc.

More than this, Orthodoxy has a consistent, Holy Spirituality that Roman Catholicism does not have. In Roman Catholicism, there seems to be a disconnect between "Love" and "Tradition," as the two are separate, incompatible entities. You'll either be a Roman Catholic who views the Church Fathers as heretic-burning lawless people, or you'll be a Roman Catholic that plays the game of judging who's the heretic going to hell. Whereas in Orthodoxy the two (Love and Tradition) cannot be separated. I also know that in Orthodoxy, I could go to any Priest and trust them, rather than playing the game of "who is the heretic?." Pope Francis' Papacy has also demonstrated that the Gates of Hell have prevailed against their Church - how could it be that someone like Pope John Paul II, who kissed the Quran and asked Saint John the Baptist to protect Islam, or someone like Mother Teresa, who prayed in Buddhist Temples, publicly venerated and prayed to Gandhi, and sent her sisters to a Benedictine Monk who integrated Hindu rituals into Christianity, are infallibly canonized as Saints? How can it be that the Roman Catholic Church has always held the "death penalty as immoral in all situations?", according to the infallible Catechism of the Catholic Church?

However, despite this, I still have genuine fear. What if all my interpretations of history are wrong? And why is it the case that Pope Leo and Pope Gregory seemed to hold they could "annul" synods not in their jurisdiction? What does Saint Gregory mean by "Who can doubt that Constantinople is subject to the Apostolic See?" Why is Filioque, Purgatory, and (seemingly) Papal Supremacy there in history so early (4th - 6th century)?


What if I'm condemned? What if I'm missing something?

I don't think I could morally leave the Orthodox Church, as I could be sinning, but...I still have fear, and I have to ask the question - what if this fear is genuine from the Holy Spirit telling me to leave Orthodoxy, and this fear isn't just Satan trying to prevent me from joining the Church?

I could ask for your prayers, and I wonder if anybody else here has had similar experiences and could share it.

You have my prayers, and I, too, have had some challenges, doubts and other struggles during my catechumenate (and they are still continuing). I don’t have advice to give you, except to continue in prayer and talk to your priest, but you’re not alone if that is any comfort.

It seems to me that it is a big deal to make this conversion, and so should be one made with a lot of struggle, searching, questioning and prayer, and not be taken lightly. And, of course, the enemy will try to keep us away from God and the Church which adds more confusion to the mix.

(But what do I know? I’m in the same boat as you, and sometimes feel like I’m drowning.)

 

[truefiction1]

I thought I would be condemned forever if I made the wrong choice, because I did not know God yet. I had yet to learn of the depth of God's mercy, and of God's patience, so that I could be more patient with myself as I struggled to discover the Truth. Will God condemn one who is seeking Him -- the God Who hangs in pain upon the cross for the sake of all the lost?

 

[HTacianas]

So, it seems possible that - probably in a month - I will become a Catechumen of the Church.

However, as I'm approaching this date, I have been attacked with all kinds of fleshly temptations that have let me reach levels of sin that - recently - put me in a place of sadness of spiritual despair I didn't think was possible. I'm pulling myself (with God's Grace) out of the place which I put myself into, but it's been harsh.

More than this, I have been hit with fear. Thoughts keep coming in my head - "What if I'm wrong?"

As you probably know, the Roman Catholic Church believes that all those who were members and leave the Church are damned.

In my approach to Orthodoxy versus Catholicism, I've tried to use objective facts as criterion from which I could figure this situation out, and I don't see how Roman Catholicism is reconcilable with pre-schism history or even post-schism history.

For example, why did the 5th Ecumenical Council think they could excommunicate a Pope? Why did the 6th Ecumenical Council condemn Honorius - explicitly - as a heretic? Why is it the case that even though Popes would hold synods in Italy excommunicating people, the Ecumenical Councils in the East would judge them afresh like they were in good standing months after these synods (Celestine and Nestorius in Ephesus, Leo and Dioscorus in Chalcedon)? Pope John VIII condemning the Filioque? Whether Saint Peter really was "the first Bishop of Rome", etc.

More than this, Orthodoxy has a consistent, Holy Spirituality that Roman Catholicism does not have. In Roman Catholicism, there seems to be a disconnect between "Love" and "Tradition," as the two are separate, incompatible entities. You'll either be a Roman Catholic who views the Church Fathers as heretic-burning lawless people, or you'll be a Roman Catholic that plays the game of judging who's the heretic going to hell. Whereas in Orthodoxy the two (Love and Tradition) cannot be separated. I also know that in Orthodoxy, I could go to any Priest and trust them, rather than playing the game of "who is the heretic?." Pope Francis' Papacy has also demonstrated that the Gates of Hell have prevailed against their Church - how could it be that someone like Pope John Paul II, who kissed the Quran and asked Saint John the Baptist to protect Islam, or someone like Mother Teresa, who prayed in Buddhist Temples, publicly venerated and prayed to Gandhi, and sent her sisters to a Benedictine Monk who integrated Hindu rituals into Christianity, are infallibly canonized as Saints? How can it be that the Roman Catholic Church has always held the "death penalty as immoral in all situations?", according to the infallible Catechism of the Catholic Church?

However, despite this, I still have genuine fear. What if all my interpretations of history are wrong? And why is it the case that Pope Leo and Pope Gregory seemed to hold they could "annul" synods not in their jurisdiction? What does Saint Gregory mean by "Who can doubt that Constantinople is subject to the Apostolic See?" Why is Filioque, Purgatory, and (seemingly) Papal Supremacy there in history so early (4th - 6th century)?


What if I'm condemned? What if I'm missing something?

I don't think I could morally leave the Orthodox Church, as I could be sinning, but...I still have fear, and I have to ask the question - what if this fear is genuine from the Holy Spirit telling me to leave Orthodoxy, and this fear isn't just Satan trying to prevent me from joining the Church?

I could ask for your prayers, and I wonder if anybody else here has had similar experiences and could share it.

I had the thought once that the Day of Judgement would be something like the awarding of the Oscar. Only then would we find out what Church was right all along. "May I have the envelope please. And the winner is...the Coptic Tawhedo Orthodox Church of Eritrea!"

I really hope it doesn't go that way, and I certainly don't want to see millions condemned because their Patriarch wasn't quite clear on the specific language used to describe the Incarnation.

But keep in mind that no Church condemns the members of any of the other Churches.

 

[TheLostCoin]

I had the thought once that the Day of Judgement would be something like the awarding of the Oscar. Only then would we find out what Church was right all along. "May I have the envelope please. And the winner is...the Coptic Tawhedo Orthodox Church of Eritrea!"

I really hope it doesn't go that way, and I certainly don't want to see millions condemned because their Patriarch wasn't quite clear on the specific language used to describe the Incarnation.

But keep in mind that no Church condemns the members of any of the other Churches.

From Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

From Council of Florence:

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, heretics, and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels", unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

 

[ArmyMatt]

the demons are coming after you because they fear they will lose you.

funny thing about the council of Florence, modern Popes disagree with that.

 

[truefiction1]

From Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

From Council of Florence:

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, heretics, and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels", unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

Best to disregard such writings, especially because the "most Holy Roman Church" is not able to establish that it is indeed the Catholic and Apostolic Church. They are self professed "Roman" before they are Christian, and can therefor not even fit the very definition of Catholicism, which does not depend upon geographical location, ethnicity, or Apostolic sees. If it did, then the Ecumenical Excommunication of Roman Pope Honorius I would have been the end of the Church, and so the gates of hell would indeed have prevailed, making Christ into a phony. But as we see, the Church is still here, with grace flowing abundantly through Her members.

Such statements are scare tactics used by church leaders to dissuade members from leaving their Roman Church, and not necessarily for the benefit of the faithful so much as for the benefit of the institution itself. if we look beyond the writings into the motivations that produced the writings, then we will understand the social conditions which lead to their production and not be scared or swayed by them.

 

[TheLostCoin]

Best to disregard such writings, especially because the "most Holy Roman Church" is not able to establish that it is indeed the Catholic and Apostolic Church. They are self professed "Roman" before they are Christian, and can therefor not even fit the very definition of Catholicism, which does not depend upon geographical location, ethnicity, or Apostolic sees. If it did, then the Ecumenical Excommunication of Roman Pope Honorius I would have been the end of the Church, and so the gates of hell would indeed have prevailed, making Christ into a phony. But as we see, the Church is still here, with grace flowing abundantly through Her members.

Such statements are scare tactics used by church leaders to dissuade members from leaving their Roman Church, and not necessarily for the benefit of the faithful so much as for the benefit of the institution itself. if we look beyond the writings into the motivations that produced the writings, then we will understand the social conditions which lead to their production and not be scared or swayed by them.

Honorius was excommunicated after his death, although he was a heretic.

Vigilius, however, had his name struck from the Diptychs while he was alive for heresy, although they "wanted to maintain communion with the Apostolic See." This latter line to me seems like nothing though, as the Pope was indeed excommunicated (if not that, forbidden from commemoration for heresy), and Cardinal Humbert said the same thing with the Holy Church of Constantinople when he said that Rome simply just excommunicated Patriarch Michael and his followers, not the Byzantine people - although look where such a logic has led us. Are we in communion with Rome today?

 

[~Anastasia~]

These kinds of attacks and doubts are so common that I would say they ought to be expected. Don't be surprised when the same thing happens approaching actual baptism/chrismation. I think it's harder to find someone they don't happen to.

And God wants to save people - so much so that He became Incarnate and suffered death on the Cross. To think He would reject someone who sincerely seeks Him because they incorrectly interpreted some point of history a thousand or more years ago - is a misunderstanding of His love.

Even Catholicism when it asserts that a person would be lost adds that it falls on one who does it knowingly. I don't believe Catholicism has maintained the Apostolic faith - but I can actually get behind the idea that a person who knows and recognizes the Church and yet rejects it is at some peril. But I read that completely differently from breaking communion with Rome. I read that as rejecting what you know full well God has established. And I don't know anyone who does that.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Honorius was excommunicated after his death, although he was a heretic.

Vigilius, however, had his name struck from the Diptychs while he was alive for heresy, although they "wanted to maintain communion with the Apostolic See." This latter line to me seems like nothing though, as the Pope was indeed excommunicated (if not that, forbidden from commemoration for heresy), and Cardinal Humbert said the same thing with the Holy Church of Constantinople when he said that Rome simply just excommunicated Patriarch Michael and his followers, not the Byzantine people - although look where such a logic has led us. Are we in communion with Rome today?

yes, Vigilius was excommunicated by the East for not agreeing to the 5th Council. then when he accepted the 5th Council and repented, he was excommunicated by the West.

 

[truefiction1]

Honorius was excommunicated after his death.

Vigilius, however, had his name struck from the Diptychs while he was alive for heresy, although they "wanted to maintain communion with the Apostolic See." This latter line to me seems like nothing though, as the Pope was indeed excommunicated (if not that, forbidden from commemoration for heresy), and Cardinal Humbert said the same thing with the Holy Church of Constantinople when he said that Rome simply just excommunicated Patriarch Michael and his followers, not the Byzantine people - although look where such a logic has led us. Are we in communion with Rome today?

No. But they would gladly give me a Communion wafer if I was willing, while I can't offer them our Eucharist. Things have gotten weird everywhere outside of the Church. Here, however, things are about as they've always been. There's no place like home.

 

[dzheremi]

Though I would probably also be under some kind of condemnation for having joined the OO rather than the EO, it is true what others have said in this thread such attacks are incredibly common. They are commented upon by our common fathers, especially in the collections of the sayings of the Desert Fathers, for whom demonic attack was a common theme due to the intense spiritual combat in which they engaged. I am reminded here of my father St. John the Little, who prayed not for a cessation to the attacks, but that God give him strength for the fight! We must pray this too, whether we are catechumens or not, as the devils never cease trying to knock a person off of the straight path.

As concerns any sin, remember also what our common father St. John Chrysostom said: "Do not be ashamed to enter again into the Church. Be ashamed when you sin. Do not be ashamed when you repent. Pay attention to what the devil did to you." You are already being mindful by recognizing what is going on. Glorify God in that mindfulness. They say that idle hands are the devil's workshop (sort of a translation of a saying of St. Jerome, according to the internet), so the more that you can occupy them in prayer and supplication, the better.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I've actually started to wonder if something is wrong with my spiritual life, that I'm not struggling enough or running up against enough opposition. Having no real resistance whatsoever almost feels like a sign you aren't really resisting the enemy. Being that I can't really fast, I may be hyper-vigilant about such a possibility.

But demonic opposition is a normal state, I think, and so much the more when we are approaching nearer to something really beneficial to our soul.

 

[Northbrook]

I agree with Truefiction1 and ArmyMatt: the devil is stepping up his attacks against you because you are ON THE VERGE of doing the right thing. It reminds me of the time I asked my Greek Orthodox spiritual father, “Right before you left the world to become a monk, did the devil step up his attacks against you?” And he said, “Oh, yes.”

 

[Phronema]

This sort of thing has happened to me too recently, and so I ended up looking up a few resources on the subject. I've certainly read about these sorts of things happening to others.

Here's a short clip that may be helpful by Elder Joseph of Vatopedi on despair. It was helpful for me.

 

[Chris V++]

I don't think I could morally leave the Orthodox Church, as I could be sinning, but...I still have fear, and I have to ask the question - what if this fear is genuine from the Holy Spirit telling me to leave Orthodoxy, and this fear isn't just Satan trying to prevent me from joining the Church?

I'm not Orthodox and I'm no longer catholic, but logically, if Rome lifted it's excommunication of EO and accepts EO sacraments as valid, wouldn't you be safe to make the transition, even by Rome's logic? As far as Rome is concerned, EO is in communion, no? I haven't read all the responses so sorry if I"m out of line.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'm not Orthodox and I'm no longer catholic, but logically, if Rome lifted it's excommunication of EO and accepts EO sacraments as valid, wouldn't you be safe to make the transition, even by Rome's logic? As far as Rome is concerned, EO is in communion, no? I haven't read all the responses so sorry if I"m out of line.

according to Rome, our sacraments are valid but illicit I believe, whatever that means.

 

[Chris V++]

according to Rome, our sacraments are valid but illicit I believe, whatever that means.

Illicit? Are you serving absinthe?? (Just kidding. No offense)

 

[ArmyMatt]

Illicit? Are you serving absinthe?? (Just kidding. No offense)

nope, never tried the stuff