Is there salvation without Mary?

[Athanasius377]

Natures denotes a beginning .God is supernatural without beginning of Spirt life or end of the same eternal Spirit life.

God has no mother or father as biological or DNA. The son of man did have a biological body as the chief apostle he did the wil of the father who empower him to do so .it worked in the Son of man to both wil and perform the good pleasure of the father. Jesus did it joyfully unlike some y who murmur . On one occasion the Son of man Jesus said to the father who worked in him .Not as I will, strengthen me to do yours.

Philipians2: 13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

What applies to our brother in Christ, Jesus applies to us. We are all children of the father.

Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Call no man on earth Holy Father one is our father of spirits in heaven not seen.

Wrong. Jesus is both God and Man. 100% God and 100% man. Jesus is not just Chief apostle he is God enfleshed. He is God, man, King, Apostle and High Priest. The second Person of the Holy Trinity. Do you agree?

 

[Francis Drake]

The idol images represent the queen of heaven .Whether it could look like our sister in the Lord Mary or not does not make any difference .She has nothing to do with out salvation .She received the fullness of Christ grace (salvation) just as any other sinner.

Do you bother reading anything before making knee jerk comments?
I have argued repeatedly that Mary has absolutely nothing to do with our salvation, yet you insist on correcting my posts.

 

[rturner76]

No Noah, no incarnation.
No Abraham, no incarnation,
No Isaac, no incarnation,
No Jacob/Israel, no incarnation,
No Ruth, no incarnation.
No David, no incarnation.
etc
etc
etc.

If anyone of the above had gone astray, the heritage would have been broken.
Mary is no more faithful and no more righteous and no more important than any of the above.

I think this is a good point except where you seem to not appreciate her role in Jesus' life. I could be misinterpreting though.

All of these people were (are) instrumental in the story of our salvation INCLUDING Mary. So to answer the OP
No, there is no salvation without Mary. The question wasn't "Did it have to be Mary? or Was Mary the only one who could have had success? In a littoral way, the way time works, No Mary, no Jesus (the biological Jesus WAS born to Mary) Could someone else have done it? Yes Did someone else do it? No. So the way Moses, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David, Soloman is highly regarded in the Bible, Mary should be just as highly regarded, if not more because she reared him, raised him, fed him from her breast, nurtured him, gave him leave to go to the temple at a young age, and prepared him for his mission.
Yes, she is literally the mother of our salvation baby Jesus. If not her, who was it?
No, she is not out hope, she WAS our hope when Jesus was in her belly and a baby.

Veneration and adoration are fine to me like we venerate any Saint in our religion. She is not our salvation or any kind of "co-redemptrix" and has no share of Christ's sacrifice.

She is an inspiration to all mothers, especially those with questions about their pregnancy.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Is there salvation without Mary?

is she the mother of our salvation?

our hope?

OF course not. Mary is Jesus' mother, and she performed her ministry of giving Birth to Him, and raising Him nicely. But she has nothing to do with our salvation. The Roman Catholic "Mary thing" has no relationship to the REAL Mary, Joseph's wife.

 

[garee]

Do you bother reading anything before making knee jerk comments?
I have argued repeatedly that Mary has absolutely nothing to do with our salvation, yet you insist on correcting my posts.

Nothings?

Sorry .You said in a previous post she was no virgin after Jesus . That would seem to indicate the flesh did profit for something. Jesus in John6 said his flesh profits for nothing, zero . Many disciples walked away in unbelief ...no faith.

 

[Francis Drake]

Nothings?

Sorry .You said in a previous post she was no virgin after Jesus . That would seem to indicate the flesh did profit for something. Jesus in John6 said his flesh profits for nothing, zero . Many disciples walked away in unbelief ...no faith.

Sorry garee, but this post makes no logical sense. Please clarify.

 

[garee]

Logical or Logos ? A sense of faith, the unseen eternal that comes by hearing God not seen, the same that works in us, or the sense of that seen walking by sight the temporal, corrupted?

The witness of God or that of us mankind?

In that way it would seem we cannot serve two good teaching masters as one teaching authority.(Christs) Either it is the things seen, the temporal or those not seen, the eternal.

2 Corinthians 5:7(For we walk by faith, not by sight

Seeing it would appear that all who do have the faith do hear it (God's Word) as it works in them to both will and empower them to believe. .

It would seem all follow the same spirit of faith. Called the law of faith. It must be mixed in what it seen or heard the temporal. Or the parables will not perform its purpose teaching us how to walk or understand by the new faith (Christ's) we have as a new creation. . called Christians the bride of Christ..

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

Unity of the Spirit of Christ found in all sects or denominations .

In that way as sons of God we have a living hope of walking in agreement with our Creator And a living promise of a new body that will never die.. Hebrews 11:39

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[The Liturgist]

No Noah, no incarnation.
No Abraham, no incarnation,
No Isaac, no incarnation,
No Jacob/Israel, no incarnation,
No Ruth, no incarnation.
No David, no incarnation.
etc
etc
etc.

If any one of the above had gone astray, the heritage would have been broken.
Mary is no more faithful and no more righteous and no more important than any of the above.

Actually, she is more faithful and righteous, insofar as she was physically closer to God than anyone else. Her finite womb contained the infinite and uncontainable God according to His will.

 

[The Liturgist]

Wrong. Jesus is both God and Man. 100% God and 100% man. Jesus is not just Chief apostle he is God enfleshed. He is God, man, King, Apostle and High Priest. The second Person of the Holy Trinity. Do you agree?

Absolutely. Our Lord would be unable to trample down death by death were he not God incarnate.

 

[The Liturgist]

OF course not. Mary is Jesus' mother, and she performed her ministry of giving Birth to Him, and raising Him nicely. But she has nothing to do with our salvation. The Roman Catholic "Mary thing" has no relationship to the REAL Mary, Joseph's wife.

Its hardly a “Roman Catholic thing” when most of the people affirming the view of the OP in this thread are Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox, and in my case, a Congregationalist.

 

[Francis Drake]

Actually, she is more faithful and righteous, insofar as she was physically closer to God than anyone else.

No more faithful and no more righteous than countless other faithful believers, many of whom, BC and AD gave their lives for their faith in Christ.

Her finite womb contained the infinite and uncontainable God according to His will.

Sounds like an oxymoron to me.
Given that God is uncontainable and infinite, Mary's womb could never possibly have 'contained' Him.
She obviously bore and nurtured Christ's humanity, but not his eternal divinity, for it was she, Mary who was hidden in Christ!

 

[garee]

Actually, she is more faithful and righteous, insofar as she was physically closer to God than anyone else. Her finite womb contained the infinite and uncontainable God according to His will.

1 John 3:1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Christians as new creatures called sons of God not knowing what they will be when they receive the promise that no one has received (Hebrew 11:39) .A new incorruptible body. Not having the DNA seed of the corrupted flesh needed to procreate but are like the angels in heaven No flesh and blood. It being corrupted. . sentenced to death could never enter the new order ..

Christians are given the faith that works in them to recognize the one time outward propmised "demonstration" of the father and Son working alone working together in prefect submissiveness mutually together to bring of the government of peace. Isaiah 53 as the first part of the demonstration in the garden. . the witness of God giving us God's understanding . The second part of the three days and night work. . the cross witness of men according to their fleshly understanding.

The peace of God governed by loving authority plus willing submissiveness. The father in the greater position to the sufferings Son, the lesser, or weak powerless vessel. Together creating the peace of God that freely gives us his understanding .Not of our own selves.
1 John informs us if no Son then no Father the work of two.

In that way literally the Son of God our High priest continually without mother or father beginning of spirit life or end thereof not seen, is the lamb of God slain in principle from before the foundation of the world .(Not an after thought) Again a demonstration of the unseen eternal as a shadow or parable.

When the Son of man left he left clear instruction to show God is not a man as us and neither is there any fleshly infallible interpreter set between God not seen and mankind seen (daysman) .

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

One demonstration was all that was offered.

 

[The Liturgist]

1 John 3:1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Christians as new creatures called sons of God not knowing what they will be when they receive the promise that no one has received (Hebrew 11:39) .A new incorruptible body. Not having the DNA seed of the corrupted flesh needed to procreate but are like the angels in heaven No flesh and blood. It being corrupted. . sentenced to death could never enter the new order ..

Christians are given the faith that works in them to recognize the one time outward propmised "demonstration" of the father and Son working alone working together in prefect submissiveness mutually together to bring of the government of peace. Isaiah 53 as the first part of the demonstration in the garden. . the witness of God giving us God's understanding . The second part of the three days and night work. . the cross witness of men according to their fleshly understanding.

The peace of God governed by loving authority plus willing submissiveness. The father in the greater position to the sufferings Son, the lesser, or weak powerless vessel. Together creating the peace of God that freely gives us his understanding .Not of our own selves.
1 John informs us if no Son then no Father the work of two.

In that way literally the Son of God our High priest continually without mother or father beginning of spirit life or end thereof not seen, is the lamb of God slain in principle from before the foundation of the world .(Not an after thought) Again a demonstration of the unseen eternal as a shadow or parable.

When the Son of man left he left clear instruction to show God is not a man as us and neither is there any fleshly infallible interpreter set between God not seen and mankind seen (daysman) .

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

One demonstration was all that was offered.

The veneration of Mary is not contrary to the idea of Christ as the sole mediator between ourselves and God. Rather, it is a fulfillment of prophecy, specifically, the Magnificat in Luke 1. “All generations will call me blessed.”

 

[The Liturgist]

No more faithful and no more righteous than countless other faithful believers, many of whom, BC and AD gave their lives for their faith in Christ.

What the martyrs did saved their own souls and millions of others; if we look at the literature of the early church, particularly the writings of Ignatius of Antioch and Irenaeus of Lyon, where Ignatius implores the Christians in Rome not to attempt to stop his impending feeding to lions, where he writes “Birth pangs are upon me...” and “Suffer me to become human,” and Irenaeus writing that the glory of the church was people becoming fully alive in Christ (through martyrdom), it is dramatic.

What the Virgin Mary* did was to give birth to, suckle, and raise up God Himself, since Jesus Christ is God incarnate, the Word made flesh. Thus, Mary was uniquely blessed by virtue of extreme physical and emotional intimacy with God, exceeding that of even the disciples. Many prophets in the Old Testament did not even see God.

*The doctrine of her perpetual virginity was upheld by Martin Luther and John Wesley, and many other Protestants.

 

[garee]

The veneration of Mary is not contrary to the idea of Christ as the sole mediator between ourselves and God. Rather, it is a fulfillment of prophecy, specifically, the Magnificat in Luke 1. “All generations will call me blessed.”

Yes all generations are to call our sister in the lord, Mary blessed. A unique blessing for a woman blessed above women that gives birth to mankind .. Jael was blessed in the same way from above as all others blessed by God not seen. It is the result of the blessing .The Holy Spirit worked in them both to both will and empower mankind to his good pleasure they received the blessing .He is actively working blesses in all Christians



We should venerate our God and not each other. We are planters and waters of the incorruptible born again seed He is the breath of life that causes growth if any . He informs us in that way we are nothing without his power to create life. We can preach he alone does the teaching if any and also brings to our memory the things he has taught us. .

Judges 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.

I would offer that we call every one blessed that the Father and Son blessed. All generations call Abel the first martyr blessed.

There is is no order of hierarchy amongst those who have been blessed with eternal life. The blessing is eternal life. . God applies the fulness of His favor on all of those blessed by the incorruptible born again seed of his living word .Our sister in the Lord Mary the mother of the Son of man, Jesus like any saint was set aside for the purposes of the unseen Holy Father they all together as the bride of Christ are the blessed as lively rocks that make up the spiritual unseen house, the church .

Mary Jesus's mother had her difference of opinion like any other born again believer.

Just like others blessed by the word. Mary and Martha. But two are necessary to walk together both kinds of blessings are needed to offer the gospel .

Mary chose that which is better worship the unseen spirit moving her to a form of worship. Mary the feeding of the flesh was necessary also but man does not live by bread alone. It is God who makes us different for what did any saint have that was not freely given to them from above. And if they did receive it as God worked in them to both will and empower them to perform it why would say he did not. And forfeit his understanding as it is written?

Luke 10:38-41 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

 

[The Liturgist]

We should venerate our God and not each other.

I strongly reject this statement because we are made in the image of God and are thus venerable, and all acts of charitable service are venerable veneration.

Rather, it is worship and adoration which are due only to God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. God alone is worthy of worship (the Greek latria) whereas veneration (doulia) of other humans appears to be not only permissible but required owing to the Incarnation (it is for this same reason I’ve jumped on the anti-cremation bandwagon with the traditional Roman Catholics and the Orthodox; as much as I love Anglicanism the recent proliferation of columbaria in Episcopalian churches in the US strikes me as somewhat ghastly).

 

[garee]

I strongly reject this statement because we are made in the image of God and are thus venerable, and all acts of charitable service are venerable veneration.

Rather, it is worship and adoration which are due only to God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. God alone is worthy of worship (the Greek latria) whereas veneration (doulia) of other humans appears to be not only permissible but required owing to the Incarnation (it is for this same reason I’ve jumped on the anti-cremation bandwagon with the traditional Roman Catholics and the Orthodox; as much as I love Anglicanism the recent proliferation of columbaria in Episcopalian churches in the US strikes me as somewhat ghastly).

Created upright before the fall . As born again from above Christians are not to glory in the corrupted flesh of corrupted mankind. . completely dead in there trespasses and sin without God in this present world ..

Worship (venerating) is worship. In that way we hallow (venerate) our unseen Holy father alone. The one manner we can commune with a disembodied Spirit . God is Spirit and not a man as us. He also informs in us in Job 9 there is no fleshly infallible teacher(daysman) which stands between God not seen and mankind seen that some call a Pope to call balls and strikes.

We are not as in the garden when the creature the father of lies put his lying words in the mouth of a serpent that had form .In affect saying . . "thou shall not surely die look at me and live. Why trust a God a paerson canot see.

It opened the three avenues of this world under the god of this world.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Satan has no form. As a lying spirit he made the false claim he is God .Mankind fell the glory departed .

Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Our father saw him (false pride) fall in the garden .

Ezekiel 28: 13-16 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Again one manner to hallow or venerate our unseen father .Not manners ( plural 3500 and rising workers with familiar spirits called patron saints. ) disembodied spirits that have left this realm under the Sun .That some call patron saints. venerable sinners.

Matthew 6:9 After this manner (singular) therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed (venerated) be thy name.

One manner, one God, one Spirit .

Again not Hallowed (venerated) be the names (plural 3500) a legion of gods .

 

[The Liturgist]

Worship (venerating) is worship.

Latria and doulia are entirely distinct actions.

 

[Tigger45]

as much as I love Anglicanism the recent proliferation of columbaria in Episcopalian churches in the US strikes me as somewhat ghastly).


“What do ya feel about the use of relics in Orthodox altars?”

 

[The Liturgist]

Created upright before the fall . As born again from above Christians are not to glory in the corrupted flesh of corrupted mankind. . completely dead in there trespasses and sin without God in this present world ..

Worship (venerating) is worship. In that way we hallow (venerate) our unseen Holy father alone. The one manner we can commune with a disembodied Spirit . God is Spirit and not a man as us. He also informs in us in Job 9 there is no fleshly infallible teacher(daysman) which stands between God not seen and mankind seen that some call a Pope to call balls and strikes.

We are not as in the garden when the creature the father of lies put his lying words in the mouth of a serpent that had form .In affect saying . . "thou shall not surely die look at me and live. Why trust a God a paerson canot see.

It opened the three avenues of this world under the god of this world.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Satan has no form. As a lying spirit he made the false claim he is God .Mankind fell the glory departed .

Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Our father saw him (false pride) fall in the garden .

Ezekiel 28: 13-16 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Again one manner to hallow or venerate our unseen father .Not manners ( plural 3500 and rising workers with familiar spirits called patron saints. ) disembodied spirits that have left this realm under the Sun .That some call patron saints. venerable sinners.

Matthew 6:9 After this manner (singular) therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed (venerated) be thy name.

One manner, one God, one Spirit .

Again not Hallowed (venerated) be the names (plural 3500) a legion of gods .

Also, each person of the Trinity is worthy of worship and adoration together with the other persons. Jesus Christ is to be worshipped, and the Spirit is to be worshipped, together with the Father as one God.

For example, the Eastern Orthodox vespers and matins are entirely proper when they begin thus:

Come, let us worship and bow down before our King and God.

Come, let us worship and bow down before Christ our King and God.

Come, let us worship and bow down before Christ himself, our King and God.

I find myself drawn also to the Oriental Orthodox version of the Trisagion hymn:

“Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal One, Who was crucified for us, Have mercy on us.”