Is there salvation without Mary?

Lukaris

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There are Christians who believe that the woman of Revelation 12 can be understood as the blessed Virgin Mother & also the Church. I find myself among them & in light of so many bad interpretations of Revelation throughout history, this should at least be considered reasonable. Many Christians also believe in John 19:25-28, that the motherhood of Mary is emphasized in the specific mention of being the Lord’s mother & St. John ( & all believers) being adopted to her ( as the Lord says so).

I am just trying to present an understanding; not all will agree, of course.
 
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Francis Drake

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There are Christians who believe that the woman of Revelation 12 can be understood as the blessed Virgin Mother & also the Church. I find myself among them & in light of so many bad interpretations of Revelation throughout history, this should at least be considered reasonable. Many Christians also believe in John 19:25-28, that the motherhood of Mary is emphasized in the specific mention of being the Lord’s mother & St. John ( & all believers) being adopted to her ( as the Lord says so).

I am just trying to present an understanding; not all will agree, of course.
Except, she was no virgin after her other children.
 
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Lukaris

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Except, she was no virgin after her other children.

I was not posting to debate any points but since you mention, it is those scriptures that many of us believe affirm her as ever Virgin.
 
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ViaCrucis

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That is not an answer to my quite specific question, so I repeat, -
"To save all the arguments, show a single scripture that calls Mary, "the mother of God""


If you cannot provide such a scripture, then it demonstrates that your "Mother of God" theology is entirely man made.

Take a step back and examine your own argument here. Can you see how it might come across as, let's say, not very good?

If you can't, then let me help highlight the problem.

You have established hard parameters and rules here. You reject Luke 1:43, presumably because it doesn't use the phrase "mother of God". Thus while you don't come right out and say it, I can safely infer that all you will accept to satisfy your request is "mother of God" verbatim somewhere in Scripture. Is my analysis accurate so far?

If so, then let me continue.

Now with your rules, established as they are, opens up a pretty significant gaping hole. For example, can you use your own rules to establish that God is a Trinity? Namely can you find the word "Trinity" in the Bible? Because, in accordance with your own rules of argument which you yourself have established, if I can't find the word "Trinity" in the Bible, then "Trinity theology is entirely man made".

Or, perhaps, we could try another set of ideas:

"The Bible is God's written word" is found no where in the Bible, therefore it is a man made teaching.
"The Bible consists of 66 books" is found no where in the Bible, therefore it is a man made teaching.

Are these the rules you want to work with? Knowing that it is obviously problematic.

Or, perhaps you'd like to change your own rules here, so that anything resembling a meaningful conversation about theology can take place.

In which case the fundamental question isn't "Does the Bible use the phrase 'mother of God' in reference to Mary", but instead, "Is it true that Mary's Child is God, and thus in the Incarnation God the Son made Mary His mother?"

Because if Jesus Christ is truly God.
And if Mary really is the mother of Jesus Christ.
Then it follows that Mary is the mother of God.

Any meaningful objection to this statement must pass the rigor of theological analysis.

As such, "Mary is the mother of the humanity only" must be rejected, as this results in a separation of Jesus' humanity and divinity, as though there were a "human Jesus" and a "divine Jesus", that must be held separate from one another. Thus the human Christ was born, but the divine Christ was not. Except, and this again is really important, the divine Christ is the human Christ--it is one and the same Jesus Christ, in His one and undivided Person. Mary didn't give birth to a nature, Mary didn't conceive and give birth to an abstract concept, Mary conceived and gave birth to a Person. She conceived and gave birth to a DIVINE PERSON, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, God the Son.

Jesus Christ is God the Son, He is the Eternal and Uncreated Logos. Mary gave birth to the Logos, she gave birth to God the Son. The Person she mothered is God the Son. She is the mother of God the Son.

If one has a problem with the theology here, then they are--with no malice intended--a heretic. It is heretical to deny that Jesus Christ is truly God, the only-begotten Son, begotten of the Father before all ages, who became flesh, was conceived by the power of the Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary. That in becoming human He never ceased to be what He always was, God; but in addition united to Himself human nature, thus becoming truly man, and thus God was conceived and born as a man. Without any confusion between the Deity and the humanity, nor any separation. One undivided Person, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, fully God and fully man.

If one does not have a problem with the theology, but only with the choice in words, "mother of God", then they would probably benefit from asking themselves why. If it is true, then what is the problem? I suspect that what is actually underneath the objection isn't an objection of the doctrine itself, but rather a learned knee-jerk response to dislike anything that appears "Popish". Thus it stems from nothing more than anti-Catholicism, which as a position means one cannot engage objectively. And it becomes nothing more than an emotive response, and all one is left with is some form of the genetic fallacy "X is wrong because Y does/believes/thinks/said X".

Examine the matter on its own merits, objectively. If you do this, and you still have a problem with it, then see above in regard to basic Christology: Jesus Christ is one undivided Person, fully God and fully man.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Daniel Marsh

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There are Christians who believe that the woman of Revelation 12 can be understood as the blessed Virgin Mother & also the Church. I find myself among them & in light of so many bad interpretations of Revelation throughout history, this should at least be considered reasonable. Many Christians also believe in John 19:25-28, that the motherhood of Mary is emphasized in the specific mention of being the Lord’s mother & St. John ( & all believers) being adopted to her ( as the Lord says so).

I am just trying to present an understanding; not all will agree, of course.

As I understand our Catholic Brethren there are two answers to the question Yes and No.
The No is based on Invincible ignorance. The Yes is without Mary to give birth to Jesus -- it would not be possible.

"So far as fixing human responsibility, the most important division of ignorance is that designated by the terms invincible and vincible. Ignorance is said to be invincible when a person is unable to rid himself of it notwithstanding the employment of moral diligence, that is, such as under the circumstances is, morally speaking, possible and obligatory. This manifestly includes the states of inadvertence, forgetfulness, etc. Such ignorance is obviously involuntary and therefore not imputable. On the other hand, ignorance is termed vincible if it can be dispelled by the use of "moral diligence". This certainly does not mean all possible effort; otherwise, as Ballerini naively says, we should have to have recourse to the pope in every instance. We may say, however, that the diligence requisite must be commensurate with the importance of the affair in hand, and with the capacity of the agent, in a word such as a really sensible and prudent person would use under the circumstances. Furthermore, it must be remembered that the obligation mentioned above is to be interpreted strictly and exclusively as the duty incumbent on a man to do something, the precise object of which is the acquisition of the needed knowledge. In other words the mere fact that one is bound by some extrinsic title to do something the performance of which would have actually, though not necessarily, given the required information, is negligible. When ignorance is deliberately aimed at and fostered, it is said to be affected, not because it is pretended, but rather because it is sought for by the agent so that he may not have to relinquish his purpose. Ignorance which practically no effort is made to dispel is termed crass or supine."
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Ignorance
 
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garee

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Take a step back and examine your own argument here. Can you see how it might come across as, let's say, not very good?

If you can't, then let me help highlight the problem.

You have established hard parameters and rules here. You reject Luke 1:43, presumably because it doesn't use the phrase "mother of God". Thus while you don't come right out and say it, I can safely infer that all you will accept to satisfy your request is "mother of God" verbatim somewhere in Scripture. Is my analysis accurate so far?

If so, then let me continue.

Now with your rules, established as they are, opens up a pretty significant gaping hole. For example, can you use your own rules to establish that God is a Trinity? Namely can you find the word "Trinity" in the Bible? Because, in accordance with your own rules of argument which you yourself have established, if I can't find the word "Trinity" in the Bible, then "Trinity theology is entirely man made".

Or, perhaps, we could try another set of ideas:

"The Bible is God's written word" is found no where in the Bible, therefore it is a man made teaching.
"The Bible consists of 66 books" is found no where in the Bible, therefore it is a man made teaching.

Are these the rules you want to work with? Knowing that it is obviously problematic.

Or, perhaps you'd like to change your own rules here, so that anything resembling a meaningful conversation about theology can take place.

In which case the fundamental question isn't "Does the Bible use the phrase 'mother of God' in reference to Mary", but instead, "Is it true that Mary's Child is God, and thus in the Incarnation God the Son made Mary His mother?"

Because if Jesus Christ is truly God.
And if Mary really is the mother of Jesus Christ.
Then it follows that Mary is the mother of God.

Any meaningful objection to this statement must pass the rigor of theological analysis.

As such, "Mary is the mother of the humanity only" must be rejected, as this results in a separation of Jesus' humanity and divinity, as though there were a "human Jesus" and a "divine Jesus", that must be held separate from one another. Thus the human Christ was born, but the divine Christ was not. Except, and this again is really important, the divine Christ is the human Christ--it is one and the same Jesus Christ, in His one and undivided Person. Mary didn't give birth to a nature, Mary didn't conceive and give birth to an abstract concept, Mary conceived and gave birth to a Person. She conceived and gave birth to a DIVINE PERSON, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, God the Son.

Jesus Christ is God the Son, He is the Eternal and Uncreated Logos. Mary gave birth to the Logos, she gave birth to God the Son. The Person she mothered is God the Son. She is the mother of God the Son.

If one has a problem with the theology here, then they are--with no malice intended--a heretic. It is heretical to deny that Jesus Christ is truly God, the only-begotten Son, begotten of the Father before all ages, who became flesh, was conceived by the power of the Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary. That in becoming human He never ceased to be what He always was, God; but in addition united to Himself human nature, thus becoming truly man, and thus God was conceived and born as a man. Without any confusion between the Deity and the humanity, nor any separation. One undivided Person, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, fully God and fully man.

If one does not have a problem with the theology, but only with the choice in words, "mother of God", then they would probably benefit from asking themselves why. If it is true, then what is the problem? I suspect that what is actually underneath the objection isn't an objection of the doctrine itself, but rather a learned knee-jerk response to dislike anything that appears "Popish". Thus it stems from nothing more than anti-Catholicism, which as a position means one cannot engage objectively. And it becomes nothing more than an emotive response, and all one is left with is some form of the genetic fallacy "X is wrong because Y does/believes/thinks/said X".

Examine the matter on its own merits, objectively. If you do this, and you still have a problem with it, then see above in regard to basic Christology: Jesus Christ is one undivided Person, fully God and fully man.

-CryptoLutheran

Jesus which means savor. The Christ which means the unseen anointed teaching master does not refer to the powerless flesh of corrupted dying mankind.

Mary gave birth to the son of man Jesus . Jesus is the chief apostle (sent one not venerable one) and high priest of the new reformed testament order, sent from the Holy Father, who remains without beginning of day or end of Spirit life. The Son of man did not come to do his own will of the flesh. God is not a created being .

There is a clear distinction between the Son of God the unseen Spirit , and son of man the temporal seen flesh .

Of (coming from) God speaks of being born from above .All believers are considered sons of God in that way.

As sons of man or called daughters of men it pertains to the corrupted flesh and blood, dying humanity.. . powerless to to do the will of the father.

Romans 1:3-6 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ

No such thing as the flesh of holiness.

We are not the called of the son of man. The Holy Father provides that unseen power that works in sons of God.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Jesus which means savor. The Christ which means the unseen anointed teaching master does not refer to the powerless flesh of corrupted dying mankind.

Mary gave birth to the son of man Jesus . Jesus is the chief apostle (sent one not venerable one) and high priest of the new reformed testament order, sent from the Holy Father, who remains without beginning of day or end of Spirit life. The Son of man did not come to do his own will of the flesh. God is not a created being .

There is a clear distinction between the Son of God the unseen Spirit , and son of man the temporal seen flesh .

Of (coming from) God speaks of being born from above .All believers are considered sons of God in that way.

As sons of man or called daughters of men it pertains to the corrupted flesh and blood, dying humanity.. . powerless to to do the will of the father.

Romans 1:3-6 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ

No such thing as the flesh of holiness.

We are not the called of the son of man. The Holy Father provides that unseen power that works in sons of God.

So... are you trying to say that God inhabited the man Jesus, but that Jesus Himself isn't God?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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garee

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So... are you trying to say that God inhabited the man Jesus, but that Jesus Himself isn't God?

-CryptoLutheran


As the Son of God he is God (he and father one God) but as the son of man he is man with the Spirit of Christ the Spirit of power that moved Jesus to do both will and empower him to do the will unseen father. .

In that way all flesh maters .We as sons of God, not being that in which we will be when we receive our new incorruptible bodies .

We are lovingly commanded to know no man after the flesh .God is no respecter of persons or shades of color. (God is not a man an creation).
This even though some did know him both ways for 33 years. We are not to think of him as a man ever again, forever more.

The one time propmised demonstration of the father and Son working together to form the government of peace is over. We walk by the unseen eternal not after the temporal things seen of this corrupted dying creation .

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Walk by faith the unseen eternal.
 
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Francis Drake

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What you call the mother of god is the same as what some call the queen of heaven . God is not a man he has no mother or father. He remains without beginning of Spirit life or end thereof.
"What you call the mother of God......" ???????????
And just where did I do that?
You've got the wrong man pal, or you didn't bother to read my posts. Had you done so you would see that every post I made here was to repudiate the heresy that Mary was the mother of God.

And yes of course the idols we see in churches are not Mary, but the pagan goddess called the Queen of Heaven.
And idols of Mary holding a baby Jesus are direct copies of fertility goddesses from ancient Babylon etc.
This idol is 5thCent BC. Looks pretty familiar to me.
D5004890r.jpg


And another goddess
OIP._L4FpXBNYnF0Z4DAVfOX5AHaKd
 
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Lukaris

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The title of Mother of God developed when people were denying that Jesus Christ was God, the Son of God the Father. You lose the miracle of the Virgin birth, you lose the Incarnation,you lose the Gospel preached, you lose the Cross, you lose the resurrection, you lose the ascension, you lose salvation.

This is not about pagan idols; it is about what we read in John 1:1-18 especially John 1:1-5, John 1:14-18.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Is there salvation without Mary?

is she the mother of our salvation?

our hope?

No Mary is the mother of Christ not the mother of our salvation but the mother of our Savior. Without Mary salvation would’ve still came, because God would’ve chosen someone else. Mary is definitely not our hope. If your putting your hope in Mary it is misplaced and I am confident that if she were here today she would rebuke you herself.
 
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BNR32FAN

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"What you call the mother of God......" ???????????
And just where did I do that?
You've got the wrong man pal, or you didn't bother to read my posts. Had you done so you would see that every post I made here was to repudiate the heresy that Mary was the mother of God.

And yes of course the idols we see in churches are not Mary, but the pagan goddess called the Queen of Heaven.
And idols of Mary holding a baby Jesus are direct copies of fertility goddesses from ancient Babylon etc.
This idol is 5thCent BC. Looks pretty familiar to me.
D5004890r.jpg


And another goddess
OIP._L4FpXBNYnF0Z4DAVfOX5AHaKd

This is nonsense because the church has always condemned worshipping pagan idols and were persecuted and martyred for centuries for refusing to worship pagan idols. Your making a false accusation that contradicts countless pieces of evidence throughout the centuries.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The title of Mother of God developed when people were denying that Jesus Christ was God, the Son of God the Father. You lose the miracle of the Virgin birth, you lose the Incarnation,you lose the Gospel preached, you lose the Cross, you lose the resurrection, you lose the ascension, you lose salvation.

This is not about pagan idols; it is about what we read in John 1:1-18 especially John 1:1-5, John 1:14-18.

Amen.

"By common assent great is the mystery of our religion: God appeared in the flesh." 1 Timothy 3:16

-CryptoLutheran
 
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BNR32FAN

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The title of Mother of God developed when people were denying that Jesus Christ was God, the Son of God the Father. You lose the miracle of the Virgin birth, you lose the Incarnation,you lose the Gospel preached, you lose the Cross, you lose the resurrection, you lose the ascension, you lose salvation.

This is not about pagan idols; it is about what we read in John 1:1-18 especially John 1:1-5, John 1:14-18.

The term Theostokos goes all the way back to the second century. And yes you are correct the term was not about venerating Mary it was about confirming Christ’s divinity even at His incarnation before He was born. This was to confirm that Christ was not born as a man then became God or God entered Him but that Christ was incarnated in the flesh before His birth.
 
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Francis Drake

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The title of Mother of God developed when people were denying that Jesus Christ was God, the Son of God the Father. You lose the miracle of the Virgin birth, you lose the Incarnation,you lose the Gospel preached, you lose the Cross, you lose the resurrection, you lose the ascension, you lose salvation.

This is not about pagan idols; it is about what we read in John 1:1-18 especially John 1:1-5, John 1:14-18.
Haha.
The other half of the world that rejects the 'Mother of God' nonsense, seem to manage perfectly well accepting Jesus is God, son of the Father, the virgin birth, the incarnation, the cross, the resurrection, the ascension, the gospel, salvation etc etc etc.
Maybe we just don't need pagan crutches to serve the Lord.
 
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Lukaris

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Haha.
The other half of the world that rejects the 'Mother of God' nonsense, seem to manage perfectly well accepting Jesus is God, son of the Father, the virgin birth, the incarnation, the cross, the resurrection, the ascension, the gospel, salvation etc etc etc.
Maybe we just don't need pagan crutches to serve the Lord.

So the Church which held the faith together against a heresy ( Arianism) that denied Jesus Christ was God over 1500 years ago was using “pagan crutches” to do so. That’s rich.

There were other heresies in which the relation of the Lord’s humanity & His mother is understood to uphold faith in him.

St. Augustine, respected within Protestantism ( I always thought so unless I am wrong) mentions a heresy that claimed Christ was Son of the Holy Spirit as well as the Father. In his work: The Enchiridion, St. Augustine says, “Our Lord Jesus Christ, who of God is God, and as man was born of the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary, having both substances, the divine & the human, is the only Son of God the Father Almighty from whom proceedeth the Holy Spirit. Now in what sense do we say that Christ was born of the Holy Spirit, if the Holy Spirit did not beget Him? Is it that He made Him, since our Lord Jesus Christ, though as God “all things were made by Him “ (John 1:3) yet as man was Himself made; as the apostle says, “who was made of the seed of David according to the flesh?” ( Romans 1:3). But as that created thing which the Virgin conceived and brought forth, though it was united only to the person of the Son, was made by the whole Trinity ( for the works of the Trinity are not inseparable), why should the Holy Spirit alone be mentioned as having made it?”

St. Augustine, Enchiridion, chapter 38, Gateway editions c. 1961

In another chapter on the mystery of the Virgin birth, St. Augustine says, “if her virginity had been marred even in bringing Him forth, He would not have been born of a Virgin; and it would be false ( which God forbid) that He was born of the Virgin Mary, as is believed by the whole Church, which in imitation of His mother, daily brings forth members of His body, and yet remains a virgin.” St. Augustine goes on to tell the reader to read another letter ( to Volusianis) on the “virginity of the holy Mary.”

This was part of the Orthodox & Catholic faith of the ancient church which upheld that Jesus Christ was God, our Lord & savior against unbelief.
 
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Athanasius377

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Haha.
The other half of the world that rejects the 'Mother of God' nonsense, seem to manage perfectly well accepting Jesus is God, son of the Father, the virgin birth, the incarnation, the cross, the resurrection, the ascension, the gospel, salvation etc etc etc.
Maybe we just don't need pagan crutches to serve the Lord.
It is perfectly orthodox and keeping in protestant reformation theology to acknowledge that Mary is the Mother of God properly understood. To say that Mary is the Mother of Christ and not God is to in effect separate out the two natures (100% Divine and 100% Human) and thus destroying the Hypostatic union and creating separate person in the process. This teaching is known as Nestorianism and is an historical heresy condemned at the Council of Ephesus in 431.

Just because others used it as a launching pad for later Marian teaching should not take away from its biblical foundations and our understanding of Christology.
 
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garee

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"What you call the mother of God......" ???????????
And just where did I do that?
You've got the wrong man pal, or you didn't bother to read my posts. Had you done so you would see that every post I made here was to repudiate the heresy that Mary was the mother of God.

And yes of course the idols we see in churches are not Mary, but the pagan goddess called the Queen of Heaven.
And idols of Mary holding a baby Jesus are direct copies of fertility goddesses from ancient Babylon etc.
This idol is 5thCent BC. Looks pretty familiar to me.
D5004890r.jpg


And another goddess
OIP._L4FpXBNYnF0Z4DAVfOX5AHaKd
The idol images represent the queen of heaven .Whether it could look like our sister in the Lord Mary or not does not make any difference .She has nothing to do with out salvation .She received the fullness of Christ grace (salvation) just as any other sinner.
 
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garee

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It is perfectly orthodox and keeping in protestant reformation theology to acknowledge that Mary is the Mother of God properly understood. To say that Mary is the Mother of Christ and not God is to in effect separate out the two natures (100% Divine and 100% Human) and thus destroying the Hypostatic union and creating separate person in the process. This teaching is known as Nestorianism and is an historical heresy condemned at the Council of Ephesus in 431.

Just because others used it as a launching pad for later Marian teaching should not take away from its biblical foundations and our understanding of Christology.

Natures denotes a beginning .God is supernatural without beginning of Spirt life or end of the same eternal Spirit life.

God has no mother or father as biological or DNA. The son of man did have a biological body as the chief apostle he did the wil of the father who empower him to do so .it worked in the Son of man to both wil and perform the good pleasure of the father. Jesus did it joyfully unlike some y who murmur . On one occasion the Son of man Jesus said to the father who worked in him .Not as I will, strengthen me to do yours.

Philipians2: 13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

What applies to our brother in Christ, Jesus applies to us. We are all children of the father.

Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Call no man on earth Holy Father one is our father of spirits in heaven not seen.
 
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