Is there salvation without Mary?

Biltong65

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To my memory, the SDA stands out as teaching "soul sleep".

A former President of the Southern Baptist Convention (Herschel Hobbs) wrote in his book, What Baptists Believe, that "There is no scriptural basis for "soul sleeping"" (page 109).

The Wikipedia* article on Christian Mortalism covers the subject well, as far as opponents and proponents of "soul sleep" thru the ages.

*Yes, I said wikipedia. The article contains 231 references, a bibliography, etc.; and, as with all things, we approach it with discernment. Wikipedia is often my starting point for researching any subject.
 
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ViaCrucis

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wasn't the real Samuel. The real Samuel was.resting in paradise. It was a familiar spirit

No, the Bible pretty clearly says it was Samuel.

"When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, 'Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!' The king said to her, 'Do not be afraid. What do you see?' And the woman said to Saul, 'I see a mighty one coming out of the earth.' He said to her, 'What is his appearance?' And she said, 'An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.' And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed his face to the ground and paid homage.

Then Samuel said to Saul, 'Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?' Saul answered, 'I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.' And Samuel said, 'Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy? The LORD has done to you as He spoke by me, for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD and did not carry out His fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. Moreover, the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.'

Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten nothing all day and all night.
" - 1 Samuel 28:12-20

There's nothing here that would suggest it was anything or anyone other than Samuel. The text very plainly says it was Samuel. Not a familiar spirit, or a demon, or phantasmal entity--it was Samuel.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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The Liturgist

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No Noah, no incarnation.
No Abraham, no incarnation,
No Isaac, no incarnation,
No Jacob/Israel, no incarnation,
No Ruth, no incarnation.
No David, no incarnation.
etc
etc
etc.

If any one of the above had gone astray, the heritage would have been broken.
Mary is no more faithful and no more righteous and no more important than any of the above.

That’s demonstrably erroneous because none of the aboce gave birth to God incarnate. Giving birth to, and being a mother to, the incarnate Only Begotten Son and Word of God meant that Mary was closer to our Lord, closer to God, physically and emotionally, than any other human person. It was not a mere mechanical transaction in which God simply used her to acquire a human nature, because if that were the case, if he lacked human parentage, it would make him less than fully human.
 
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The Liturgist

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Hmph. The head of your Church is a pope, chosen by other men. The Head of MY Church is JESUS CHRIST, & the Bible is His "Owner's Manual".

Actually, to be fair, the equivalent of the Bishop of Rome in a Baptist church would be the pastor and the ruling elders, although the pastor’s authority is far more limited.

Now, in the Calvary Chapel, they use an interesting polity called the “Moses Model” wherein the pastor of each church has more or less absolute power over their congregation, with the only restraint on that power being the ability of the other Calvary Chapels to deny an errant pastor or congregation the right to use the Calvary Chapel name.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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If not for her, Christ would not have been born and thus our salvation would not be derived from Christ's sacrifice. So yes, we depended on Mary for salvation, in as much as she bore the savior from her own flesh and from her Jesus took his humanity becoming truly part of mankind.
 
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garee

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No, the Bible pretty clearly says it was Samuel.

"When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, 'Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!' The king said to her, 'Do not be afraid. What do you see?' And the woman said to Saul, 'I see a mighty one coming out of the earth.' He said to her, 'What is his appearance?' And she said, 'An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.' And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed his face to the ground and paid homage.

Then Samuel said to Saul, 'Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?' Saul answered, 'I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.' And Samuel said, 'Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy? The LORD has done to you as He spoke by me, for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD and did not carry out His fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. Moreover, the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.'

Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten nothing all day and all night.
" - 1 Samuel 28:12-20

There's nothing here that would suggest it was anything or anyone other than Samuel. The text very plainly says it was Samuel. Not a familiar spirit, or a demon, or phantasmal entity--it was Samuel.

-CryptoLutheran

Those who have passed or taken their last breath their memories are forgotten and not ours of them . their memories will not remembered the former thing of earth will never come to mind. Now is the time we can offer the good works of Christ working in us with us. This would include Samuel the prophet. The lord sent a strong delusion to the witch and Saul . God has already propmised he would not commune with Saul after any manner to include necromancy which is seeking the dead for those still alive and breathing.

When the witch saw gods(plural )coming up. . called the legion (many)in the Bible she needed a hint from Saul in order to produce the illusion or false vision .Saul bowed down to it to show the strong delusion was sent .

Ecclesiastics 9:5-7 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.

In that way the father of lies always comes up as a legion and a idol image called a teraphim like that of Rachel, a worker with a familiar spirit is needed to put a face to distinguish from other gods. . in the likeness of men and not to unseen likeness of God who is Spirit.


1 Samuel 28:13And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

Same kind of mindset of those who desired to make the apostles into a legion of gods in the likeness of men seen, and again not in the likeness of our invisible God . We walk by faith, believing that not seen our heavenly Father ) not by sight.

Acts 14:11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men
 
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ViaCrucis

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Those who have passed or taken their last breath their memories are forgotten and not ours of them . their memories will not remembered the former thing of earth will never come to mind. Now is the time we can offer the good works of Christ working in us with us. This would include Samuel the prophet. The lord sent a strong delusion to the witch and Saul . God has already propmised he would not commune with Saul after any manner to include necromancy which is seeking the dead for those still alive and breathing.

When the witch saw gods(plural )coming up. . called the legion (many)in the Bible she needed a hint from Saul in order to produce the illusion or false vision .Saul bowed down to it to show the strong delusion was sent .

Ecclesiastics 9:5-7 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.

In that way the father of lies always comes up as a legion and a idol image called a teraphim like that of Rachel, a worker with a familiar spirit is needed to put a face to distinguish from other gods. . in the likeness of men and not to unseen likeness of God who is Spirit.


1 Samuel 28:13And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

Same kind of mindset of those who desired to make the apostles into a legion of gods in the likeness of men seen, and again not in the likeness of our invisible God . We walk by faith, believing that not seen our heavenly Father ) not by sight.

Acts 14:11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men

The Bible says it was Samuel.

And I regard the use of Ecclesiastes for eschatological purposes to be a fundamental misreading and misapplication of the text. The point of Ecclesiastes is the apparent meaninglessness of existence. We live, we die, we cease to be, and the universe goes on without us as though we never really mattered anyway. It's pretty nihilistic. But it captures human existential angst quite well. The reason why the dead "know nothing" in Ecclesiastes is because in the theme of Ecclesiastes the dead are gone and living is meaningless. But we know from the rest of Scripture that the dead are not truly gone, and that life is not meaningless, and that existence--indeed the whole universe--has meaning, is good, and has purpose.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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NerdGirl

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If not for her, Christ would not have been born and thus our salvation would not be derived from Christ's sacrifice. So yes, we depended on Mary for salvation, in as much as she bore the savior from her own flesh and from her Jesus took his humanity becoming truly part of mankind.

Mary was not the only virtuous young woman in history. If, for whatever reason, she didn't exist, Jesus would have been born of another. Mary didn't DO anything to cause Christ to be born, other than carry a pregnancy and give birth. Yes, she is a special and honored figure in our faith, she was exemplary in her humility and obedience and faithfulness. But she was still just a plain old ordinary woman at the end of the day. She is not "God's mother", God has no mother or father; she was an ordinary woman who was impregnated by the Holy Spirit and gave birth to Jesus. Yes, she birthed and raised Him, but she was not his mother in the sense that she somehow created Jesus/God. She was a vessel. That's all.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Mary was not the only virtuous young woman in history. If, for whatever reason, she didn't exist, Jesus would have been born of another. Mary didn't DO anything to cause Christ to be born, other than carry a pregnancy and give birth. Yes, she is a special and honored figure in our faith, she was exemplary in her humility and obedience and faithfulness. But she was still just a plain old ordinary woman at the end of the day. She is not "God's mother", God has no mother or father; she was an ordinary woman who was impregnated by the Holy Spirit and gave birth to Jesus. Yes, she birthed and raised Him, but she was not his mother in the sense that she somehow created Jesus/God. She was a vessel. That's all.

But she is God's mother, God the Son became flesh, became the infant in Mary's womb, and Mary gave birth to Him, raised Him, fed Him, wrapped Him in swaddling clothes. Mary changed God's diapers. Mary is the mother of God.

God the Son became Mary's Child.
Mary became the mother of God the Son.
That's the Incarnation.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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NerdGirl

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But she is God's mother, God the Son became flesh, became the infant in Mary's womb, and Mary gave birth to Him, raised Him, fed Him, wrapped Him in swaddling clothes. Mary cleaned God's diapers. Mary is the mother of God.

-CryptoLutheran

Define "mother".

"One who raises a child" is different from "one who created a child".
 
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Define "mother".

"One who raises a child" is different from "one who created a child".

A female parent. Mary conceived Jesus, Mary gave birth to Jesus, and Mary raised Jesus. She is Jesus' mother, His biological mother.

She is the mother of Jesus in the same way that any other biological mother is a mother to their child.

What makes her motherhood special isn't anything to do with her, but rather the with WHO she is the mother of. She is the mother of the Incarnate God-Man.

Mary's Child is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity made flesh.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Mary was not the only virtuous young woman in history. If, for whatever reason, she didn't exist, Jesus would have been born of another. Mary didn't DO anything to cause Christ to be born, other than carry a pregnancy and give birth. Yes, she is a special and honored figure in our faith, she was exemplary in her humility and obedience and faithfulness. But she was still just a plain old ordinary woman at the end of the day. She is not "God's mother", God has no mother or father; she was an ordinary woman who was impregnated by the Holy Spirit and gave birth to Jesus. Yes, she birthed and raised Him, but she was not his mother in the sense that she somehow created Jesus/God. She was a vessel. That's all.

This sort of theology detaches Jesus from his humanity. Instead of becoming human in every way, Jesus is sort of animating a human body as a puppet. Calling her the Theotokos goes beyond honouring Mary herself (an an honour she does deserve), it is to reinforce a theology of the incarnation.

Would we accept that description of any other Mother? That she's merely a vessel for the man's child?
 
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Francis Drake

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A female parent. Mary conceived Jesus, Mary gave birth to Jesus, and Mary raised Jesus. She is Jesus' mother, His biological mother.

She is the mother of Jesus in the same way that any other biological mother is a mother to their child.

What makes her motherhood special isn't anything to do with her, but rather the with WHO she is the mother of. She is the mother of the Incarnate God-Man.

Mary's Child is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity made flesh.

-CryptoLutheran
To save all the arguments, show a single scripture that calls Mary, "the mother of God"
 
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Francis Drake

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This sort of theology detaches Jesus from his humanity. Instead of becoming human in every way, Jesus is sort of animating a human body as a puppet. Calling her the Theotokos goes beyond honouring Mary herself (an an honour she does deserve), it is to reinforce a theology of the incarnation.

Would we accept that description of any other Mother? That she's merely a vessel for the man's child?
To save all the arguments, just show us a single scripture that calls Mary, "the mother of God"
 
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ViaCrucis

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To save all the arguments, show a single scripture that calls Mary, "the mother of God"

Luke 1:43 Mary is called "mother of my Lord".

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Luke 1:43 Mary is called "mother of my Lord".

-CryptoLutheran
That is not an answer to my quite specific question, so I repeat, -
"To save all the arguments, show a single scripture that calls Mary, "the mother of God""


If you cannot provide such a scripture, then it demonstrates that your "Mother of God" theology is entirely man made.
 
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garee

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The Bible says it was Samuel.

And I regard the use of Ecclesiastes for eschatological purposes to be a fundamental misreading and misapplication of the text. The point of Ecclesiastes is the apparent meaninglessness of existence. We live, we die, we cease to be, and the universe goes on without us as though we never really mattered anyway. It's pretty nihilistic. But it captures human existential angst quite well. The reason why the dead "know nothing" in Ecclesiastes is because in the theme of Ecclesiastes the dead are gone and living is meaningless. But we know from the rest of Scripture that the dead are not truly gone, and that life is not meaningless, and that existence--indeed the whole universe--has meaning, is good, and has purpose.

-CryptoLutheran

I would think God is a God of His word and does not speak out of two sides of his mouth.. His word is law not a philosophical theory of men (fathers, kings or princes.)

We compare the context of it to the whole . The Holy Spirit mentioned it twice to make sure we underderstanding. No necromancy seeking the dead for the living. Rather than all things written in the law and the prophets (the Bible)

1 Samael28:6 And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

1 Samael28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

He sent Saul and the Witch a strong delusion to believe the lie ..

Are you proposing the introduction of necromancy seeking the dead for the living rather than all things written in the law and the prophets?

Ecclesiastes is clear their memory is completely gone. How could they commune if they have no reconciliation of who they were or others?

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Revelation 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Now is the time God accepts the good works he works in us.. That includes all even those who were given a new born again spirit and will raise in their new incorruptible body on the last day .

Those who do not rise on the last day under the Sun their bodies of death return to the dust and their temporal spirits subject the letter of the law death return to the father who gave it .

The commandment was. . "Thou shall surely die" . And not as the father of lies .You shall not surely die. We are made aware of that wile.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
 
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garee

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Define "mother".

"One who raises a child" is different from "one who created a child".

Exactly Gods word (sola scriptura) defines the word mother. He calls his whole new creation the chaste virgin bride the mother of us all or the free woman .

Paul is used in parables to help us understand as sons of God born from above what we will be has not yet occurred.(neither male not female Jew not gentile)

1 John 3:1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is

Galatian 4 unravels the mysteries used in the parables like below. Paul as a mother( surrogate womb) holding out the incorruptible spiritual seed (gospel) by which all are born from above in a hope Christ will apply it to their heart as he did with Timothy typified as a the chaste virgin bride.. . the church

Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Like a jealous mother desiring the right husband Christ the parable reads. . .

2 Corinthians 11:2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
,
 
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garee

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To save all the arguments, just show us a single scripture that calls Mary, "the mother of God"


To save all the arguments, just show us a single scripture that promotes a queen of heaven reckoned by fathers kings or princes as a hierarchy of men who see not value in all things written in the law and the prophets. But rather promote whatsoever comes out of their own mouth(oral traditions) that they the non venerable pew sitters must call sacred. and see no evil in doing so.

No man can serve two teaching masters. (1) necromancy seeking a legion of workers with familiar spirit.... spirits the dead, for the living and (2) Sola scriptura. All thing written in the law and the prophets

Same Queen different name and different fathers same hierarchy of corrupted, dying , faithless mankind .

One Devine authority as it is written .(sola scriptura)

Jeremiah 44:16-17 King James Version (KJV) As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.
 
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To save all the arguments, just show us a single scripture that promotes a queen of heaven reckoned by fathers kings or princes as a hierarchy of men who see not value in all things written in the law and the prophets. But rather promote whatsoever comes out of their own mouth(oral traditions) that they the non venerable pew sitters must call sacred. and see no evil in doing so.

No man can serve two teaching masters. (1) necromancy seeking a legion of workers with familiar spirit.... spirits the dead, for the living and (2) Sola scriptura. All thing written in the law and the prophets

Same Queen different name and different fathers same hierarchy of corrupted, dying , faithless mankind .

One Devine authority as it is written .(sola scriptura)

Jeremiah 44:16-17 King James Version (KJV) As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.
What has this got to do with my post?
 
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