Is there salvation without Mary?

[Jaxxi]

Is there salvation without Mary?

is she the mother of our salvation?

our hope?

Jesus never did a Hail Mary and He never told us to pray " Our Mother who art in heaven". He never told us to pray to His mother, and as much as He spoke of His Father, if He had wanted His mother Glorified, He would have told us. He never says Anything about His mother therefore Mary is the Immaculate Deception. False doctrine. Show me different. Please. See it for what it is!! I love you guys, do not be deceived! Satan wants us to pray to everyone but God! It is wrong. I mean no disrespect here. I know Mary was blessed but she did not die a virgin. To keep calling her the Virgin Mary is deceptive.

 

[prodromos]

Jesus never did a Hail Mary

The Archangel Gabriel did, and he was sent by God.

 

[Jaxxi]

Gabriel is not our Lord and Savior. We are not instructed to do anything the angels do unless we are told by God. Jesus never said anything about Mary.

 

[prodromos]

Gabriel is not our Lord and Savior. We are not instructed to do anything the angels do unless we are told by God. Jesus never said anything about Mary.

Zacharias didn't accept the word of the Archangel Gabriel, and he was struck mute for at least nine months.

 

[Tigger45]

 

[Jaxxi]

Zacharias didn't accept the word of the Archangel Gabriel, and he was struck mute for at least nine months.

Accepting the word is one thing. Like I had said, we are not told to do what the angels do unless we are told by God. If God sends His angel Gabriel to you and tells you to do Hail Marys and pray to Mary then do it! Otherwise, you shouldn't because it isn't Biblical.

 

[prodromos]

Accepting the word is one thing. Like I had said, we are not told to do what the angels do unless we are told by God. If God sends His angel Gabriel to you and tells you to do Hail Marys and pray to Mary then do it! Otherwise, you shouldn't because it isn't Biblical.

Half of the "Hail Mary" is from the lips of Elizabeth as she was directed to speak by the Holy Spirit, but I understand that is still not enough for you. I disagree with your position but would not wish to force you against your conscience.

 

[OneGoodSamaritan]

Mary is blessed above all women, because her son was also God’s son. The reason God sent Jesus to earth was to save it. Here are some scriptures that identify Jesus as the savior:

John 14:6 “Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (NIV)

John 3:16-17“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.”(KJV)

 

[Jaxxi]

Half of the "Hail Mary" is from the lips of Elizabeth as she was directed to speak by the Holy Spirit, but I understand that is still not enough for you. I disagree with your position but would not wish to force you against your conscience.

Where does it say to say the Hail Mary more than once? They don't think God hears them the first time? 40 Hail Marys is redundant and cult like to me.

 

[concretecamper]

Where does it say to say the Hail Mary more than once? They don't think God hears them the first time? 40 Hail Marys is redundant and cult like to me.

you act as if someone is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to say the Hail Mary. Why does it bother you so much that other love the prayer and the rosary?

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Where does it say to say the Hail Mary more than once? They don't think God hears them the first time? 40 Hail Marys is redundant and cult like to me.

40 is a special number within ancient prayers. The Great Flood of Noah was for 40 days and nights. Moses went to Mt. Sinai three times and each time was there for 40 days. The Israelites spent 40 years in the wilderness, Christ spent 40 days in the wilderness. There are 40 days from Christ's resurrection to His ascension. There are 40 days of Lent. So 40 shows up in repeated prayers symbolically of these events.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Half of the "Hail Mary" is from the lips of Elizabeth as she was directed to speak by the Holy Spirit, but I understand that is still not enough for you. I disagree with your position but would not wish to force you against your conscience.

I've had people say that we are NOT to use the Lord's Prayer because in Matthew, Jesus says, "Pray then like this: 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.'"

So since we're to pray "like this", they won't say the Lord's Prayer.

 

[prodromos]

I've had people say that we are NOT to use the Lord's Prayer because in Matthew, Jesus says, "Pray then like this: 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.'"

So since we're to pray "like this", they won't say the Lord's Prayer.

Christ, in His humility, did not say, "this is how you must pray", however it is the height of arrogance to think that we could ever improve on the example He gave us.

 

[The Liturgist]

It seems to me that some have an issue with calling Mary the Mother of God, who is the Theotokos(God Bearer).

Specifically Nestorius had a problem with the phrase “Theotokos” and taught that Jesus Christ, the man, was different from the Divine Logos, but the two were united in one person, or in a more extreme form, that was semi-Adoptionist, the person of Jesus Christ was united by will with the person of the Logos. Hence the council of Ephesus. Nestorius was not pleased with having been deposed and continued meddling in church politics, and convinced the Assyrians to follow him, on the basis of St. Cyril’s opposition to Theodore of Mopsuestia, who was the best friend of St. John Chrysostom, and whose exegesis of scripture was regarded as authoritative by the Assyrians, who used a liturgy he wrote, and called him Mar Theodore the Interpreter. But later Mar Babai the Great redefined Assyrian Christology so as to be Chalcedonian, although Assyrians will still say “Christotokos” and do regard Nestorius as a confessor, however, the late Patriarch Mar Dinkha IV, who died a just a few years ago, and who I met at a liturgy he held a few years before that, did, in the late 1970s, make certain doctrinal pronunciations to further distance the Assyrian church from Nestorius.

 

[renniks]

Two reasons why Mary is the mother of our salvation!

1: Because Jesus Christ is our salvation Lk 2:30 and Mary is His mother!


2: Because she consented to our salvation! Lk 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

You really think Mary understood how salvation was going to work? She obeyed God in doing what he asked. That doesn't make her in any way part of our salvation.

 

[The Liturgist]

No, I just cannot find anywhere in the Bible where she holds any real significance other than to stand and cry while Jesus died.

Regardless of how one feels about Roman Catholic devotions to and beliefs concerning Mary, and the veneration of Mary given by the Orthodox (which is more subdued; the Orthodox do not believe in apparitions like Fatima or wear the Brown Scapular or other Marian scapulars, and indeed, do not believe in the RC doctrine of purgatory but rather in the Apostolic eschatological model), scripture does declare that she as a virgin gave birth to God Incarnate, without having sexual intercourse, and consequently Matthew 1-3 and Luke 1-2 do confer on her much greater significance than the other women who cried upon the crucifixion of our Lord. There is also the Water into Wine incident in John, where she does intercede on behalf of the wedding party to her son, and demonstrates a full awareness of His omnipotence, being the first person in the Gospel who demonstrates such awareness.

In the early church, there were two heretical sects documented by Epiphanios the Bishop of Salamis, the Collyridians, who worshipped Mary as a goddess and believed she was present in the Eucharist, and the Antidicomarians, who refused any veneration to Mary whatsoever, and Epiphanios correctly rejected both in equal measure. The correct answer is that we should call her blessed, for being chosen to give birth to Jesus Christ and to raise him as a son, and to be that close to the only begotten Son and Incarnate Word of God, is a huge blessing anyway you cut it, and Mary is more worthy of veneration as a result than most people you can think of. And we do know that Jesus Christ cared for her as a son cares for His mother, because he entrusted her to the care of John the Beloved Disciple.

It should also be noted that when our Lord addresses women as “woman”, that was the first century equivalent of saying Madam or Ma’am. Whereas it later took on a condescending context as decades passed, so at present, if I went to the grocery store and said to the female manager “Woman, show me where the coconut pies are,” she would not be without some justification if she chose to throw the coconut pie in my face. And I expect if I then dared to call the police, Metro PD would take her side and tell me to get lost (I happen to be a major fan of the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police; but my great love and admiration for them is a subject for another thread).

 

[Sophrosyne]

What I find interesting is the example of John (the Baptist). we have an accounting that he was somewhat "special" and his parents are mentioned leading up to him being special with them having a word from God about his birth and a miracle of his father being made mute prior to it and unmuted during it all. We have pretty much NO mention of Mary's parents in the Bible in anywhere near the fashion of John's parents.... NOTHING.
So in that respect who is more important? Mary birthed Jesus, and raised him but I almost guarantee Jesus was likely an effortless child to raise as the bible says he was sinless so again... Mary never struggled even as a mother she essentially without some scorn for Jesus being considered illegitimate she was likely more on cruise control. We have Jesus teaching in the Temple so he was smart enough to take care of himself likely even as a young child he helped out more than other children did. So we call Mary blessed.... yes she was with the most easiest effort free child in the world to ever raise. When Jesus was likely in his teens almost fully grown we hear nothing of his adoptive father it is possible he had died and Jesus was taking care of mom (possible the man of the house) and in those times if he was the man of the house (as Catholics say he was an only child) then he would (because of culture) be telling Mary what to do, she wouldn't be no queen at all nor glorified by him either but treated normally as women were treated. We also see a possible example of him "in charge" of his mother when he was on the cross telling someone else to take care of Mary that would conclude that she was his responsibility MORE that he was hers.

 

[The Liturgist]

We have pretty much NO mention of Mary's parents in the Bible in anywhere near the fashion of John's parents.... NOTHING.

Dude, that’s just not the case. You seriously need to reread your Gospels, and I mean this in a loving way, because I think you’re an awesome guy with great moral values. Matthew 2 is all about Mary and Joseph and the Nativity. Only Luke 1 goes into detail on the Nativity of John the Baptist, and it also goes into detail on the Nativity of our Lord; the Virgin Mary, who was related to Elizabeth, visits her, and that is where she sings the canticle known as the Magnificat (Zecariah sings the Benedicite, and Symeon sings the Nunc Dimitis, three of the most beautiful hymns in Christianity, all in the opening part of Luke). But the Nativity of our Lord is the theme in both Matthew and Luke, whereas only Luke mentions the Nativity of John the Baptist.

Also, while John the Baptist was special in terms of his nativity, owing to the age of his father, Jesus was more special, because Mary conceived without losing her virginity, and Joseph is not the Father of our Lord but rather his guardian. The Heavenly Father of our Lord Jesus Christ does receive considerable attention in the scriptures.

It doesn’t bother me if you feel that we should pray only to God, as many Protestants are of that opinion, but I am troubled by the fact that you claimed something about the Gospels which is completely inaccurate.

Yes, it is true that some Roman Catholics take Marian devotions way too far and worship her, in violation of the Second Commandment. There is a cult called the Palmerian Catholic Church which has revived the Collyridian heresy and claims the Virgin Mary is present in the Eucharist. And there are some Roman Catholics who want her declared Co-Redemptrix based on the visions of Ida Peerdeman, which the Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith when it was run by the future Pope Benedict XVI determined were “not worthy of belief.” The apparitions at Medjugorje were also certainly false, the experience of teenagers who admitted to smoking marijuana, which the local Franciscans exploited in their century-long power struggle (now, one and a half centuries long) with the Diocese of Mostar to avoid ceding control of parishes to the diocese, which they were supposed to have completed by the late 1890s, as Herzegovina had ceased to be part of the Ottoman Empire and had become part of Austria-Hungary, and as such, was no longer under the purview of the Congregatio Propaganda Fide, to be served by mendicant friars who had been given charge of the area as a province, but was rather divided into normal dioceses, but for some reason, the Friars in Mostar have been contumant and have dug in, and the Medjugorje vision gave them an excuse to retain control of the parish church of St. James. And a film was made starring Martin Sheen villainizing the Bishop of Mostar. So please, by all means, oppose this kind of false worship of the Virgin Mary. And if you personally are uncomfortable with the Hail Mary prayer, as a Protestant, I can’t object to that.

But please do not depart from the doctrine of Jan Hus, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer, Philip Melanchthon, and John Wesley, by deprecating the role of the Virgin Mary in the birth of Christ, which is unique and special, and which was prophesized by Isaiah, and which does receive about twice as much direct coverage in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. Additionally, the Gospel of John features the Virgin Mary in several sections. And the Council of Ephesus and the Council of Chalcedon did reject Nestorianism and the idea that Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ but not God, because John 1:1-17 clearly shows the two are one person, and other scriptures show that the humanity and divinity of Jesus Christ is united without change, confusion or separation, and Martin Luther and most of the reformers believed in the principle of Communicatio Idiomatum, wherein what one can say about the deity of Christ applies to His humanity and vice versa, because in Him God and man were united, which is why we call His birth and life the Incarnation. And by the way, the Reformers I mentioned did also believe in the perpetual Virginity of Christ. As I see it, if we aren’t going to adhere to the very careful and deliberate reconstruction of the Apostolic faith they strove to implement, so that what had happened to the Western Church since the Great Schism of 1054, indeed, since two or three centuries before the Great Schism, would not be repeated, we become like the proverbial house built on sand, without a foundation, because we become disconnected with the early Church; we still have a Bible, but we can’t explain how it came to contain the books that it has, and we have no reason to even adhere to its canon or the Nicene Creed. At that point, we might as well incorporate whatever ancient apocryphal books we want.

But, even if one takes such an extreme approach, there is still the matter of sola scriptura reckoning, and you did make an error, and a substantial one, regarding the Virgin Mary. And I feel like you, being a virtuous Christian, were blinded by the neo-Collyridianism advocated by a minority of Roman Catholics, and this may have driven you to a point where you forgot about or misread the Gospels, and you are making the mistake of falling into the trap of Antidicomarianism, when the correct answer is to recognize Mary as someone blessed by God the Father, having been chosen to bear His only begotten son, conceived supernaturally and without coitus by the action of the Holy Spirit, and to be a mother to Him, while not worshipping her as a goddess.

 

[Jaxxi]

Regardless of how one feels about Roman Catholic devotions to and beliefs concerning Mary, and the veneration of Mary given by the Orthodox (which is more subdued; the Orthodox do not believe in apparitions like Fatima or wear the Brown Scapular or other Marian scapulars, and indeed, do not believe in the RC doctrine of purgatory but rather in the Apostolic eschatological model), scripture does declare that she as a virgin gave birth to God Incarnate, without having sexual intercourse, and consequently Matthew 1-3 and Luke 1-2 do confer on her much greater significance than the other women who cried upon the crucifixion of our Lord. There is also the Water into Wine incident in John, where she does intercede on behalf of the wedding party to her son, and demonstrates a full awareness of His omnipotence, being the first person in the Gospel who demonstrates such awareness.

In the early church, there were two heretical sects documented by Epiphanios the Bishop of Salamis, the Collyridians, who worshipped Mary as a goddess and believed she was present in the Eucharist, and the Antidicomarians, who refused any veneration to Mary whatsoever, and Epiphanios correctly rejected both in equal measure. The correct answer is that we should call her blessed, for being chosen to give birth to Jesus Christ and to raise him as a son, and to be that close to the only begotten Son and Incarnate Word of God, is a huge blessing anyway you cut it, and Mary is more worthy of veneration as a result than most people you can think of. And we do know that Jesus Christ cared for her as a son cares for His mother, because he entrusted her to the care of John the Beloved Disciple.

It should also be noted that when our Lord addresses women as “woman”, that was the first century equivalent of saying Madam or Ma’am. Whereas it later took on a condescending context as decades passed, so at present, if I went to the grocery store and said to the female manager “Woman, show me where the coconut pies are,” she would not be without some justification if she chose to throw the coconut pie in my face. And I expect if I then dared to call the police, Metro PD would take her side and tell me to get lost (I happen to be a major fan of the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police; but my great love and admiration for them is a subject for another thread).

Her being His Mom would make her aware of His abilities, but that does not mean we should pray to her. Jesus never once says to do that. Yes she is blessed. So are we as Christians. She found favor by being a virgin and Elizabeth found favor also, even though she was an old barren woman. The Bible does not say too much about Mary after Jesus died, and from what I have heard from people who can see in the spirit, they say that all of the earthly prayers given to Mary actually grieve her because she was not divine, could not perform miracles, and as a woman cannot intercede for anyone. She may be Jesus mother, but in heaven there is a hierarchy and women know their place. No one can intercede for us but Jesus and maybe the Archangels, but the truth is that Mary was a human soul that died like everyone else dies. She never performed miracles. She was not a Saint. She did not remain a virgin and she was not without sin. The only man who knew no sin is Jesus Christ. This is why I have a problem when people say that Jesus robbed the grave. Our Lord never stole anything and to accredit Him to a common thief is blasphemous to me.

 

[The Liturgist]

You really think Mary understood how salvation was going to work?

She was certainly mystified at first, when she consented to God’s request as conveyed by the archangel, but by the time she visited her cousin Elizabeth it becomes clear from the Magnificat that she was beginning to understand the importance of the child she was bearing and the child her cousin was bearing. And by the time of the Gospel of John, she clearly knew of his power, even though He had not yet begun His ministry. But none of the Disciples understood how salvation was going to work until after Christ was crucified and rose from the grave, and furthermore, they still needed to receive the Holy Spirit to act on that information, which happened on Pentecost. So Mary was not unique in that respect. But she definitely understood after the Resurrection.

She obeyed God in doing what he asked. That doesn't make her in any way part of our salvation.

She volunteered; her cooperation was optional. Our salvation was facilitated by God becoming incarnate, and he became incarnate through being born of a woman, the Virgin Mary, through the action of the Holy Spirit. So she is a part of our salvation in that she was a mother to the incarnate Word of God, who was God, and she and Joseph did protect him from Herrod by traveling to Egypt following the warning of the three Magi, and they did raise Him and raise Him well, and represent exemplary parents. So yes, she did participate in the economy of salvation in an important role, for which she volunteered, although she is not, as a minority of Roman Catholics claim, co-redemptrix.