Is there salvation without Mary?

[BNR32FAN]

Is there salvation without Mary?

is she the mother of our salvation?

our hope?

If Mary were never created do you think God would’ve condemned the entire world to the lake of fire for all eternity or do you think He would’ve just picked someone else to bare Christ into this world?

 

[BNR32FAN]

She brought Jesus into the world...no Mary, no Incarnation. Strictly speaking, Mary does not save us, anymore than any other human could. But when somebody baptizes you, or in any way leads you to the belief & salvation of God, can't we say that God's salvation passed through somebody else to you? He is generous with His grace.

View attachment 283075
View attachment 283076

So your saying that if Mary had not been created or if she refused to cooperate then God wouldn’t have sent Christ to save the world? That’s just crazy. God being omnipresent and omniscient chose someone whom He knew would accomplish His goal. So if Mary wasn’t that person He would’ve chose someone else.

 

[The Liturgist]

as much as I love Anglicanism the recent proliferation of columbaria in Episcopalian churches in the US strikes me as somewhat ghastly).


“What do ya feel about the use of relics in Orthodox altars?”

It strikes me as meet and right. They are also in most Roman Catholic altars. This practice of celebrating the Eucharist atop the graves of martyrs dates back to the earliest Christians in the Roman catacombs.

The problem is specifically cremation, which is a destruction of the body which unless mandated by the government, is a serious affront to the divine image.

Also there is the incorrupt nature of many of the relics of which you speak, whereas remains intentionally cremated have been intentionally corrupted.

Note that my view here is not that cremation precludes salvation, but rather is a disrespectful practice, an innovation which infiltrated the Western church driven in part due to improper management of the cemeteries and burial infrastructure. Prior to the 19th century a Christian being cremated was almost unheard of.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Two reasons why Mary is the mother of our salvation!

1: Because Jesus Christ is our salvation Lk 2:30 and Mary is His mother!


2: Because she consented to our salvation! Lk 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

I would say that she is the mother of our Savior not our salvation. To say that Mary is the mother of our salvation is to say that she is the author of our salvation or at least co-author when she was completely ignorant of God’s plan for salvation. I mean if you really want to go that route then you’d have to say that all of her previous ancestors going all the way back to Adam & Eve were just as relevant to salvation as she was in order for her to be born in the first place.

 

[Tigger45]

It strikes me as meet and right. They are also in most Roman Catholic altars. This practice of celebrating the Eucharist atop the graves of martyrs dates back to the earliest Christians in the Roman catacombs.

The problem is specifically cremation, which is a destruction of the body which unless mandated by the government, is a serious affront to the divine image.

Also there is the incorrupt nature of many of the relics of which you speak, whereas remains intentionally cremated have been intentionally corrupted.

Note that my view here is not that cremation precludes salvation, but rather is a disrespectful practice, an innovation which infiltrated the Western church driven in part due to improper management of the cemeteries and burial infrastructure. Prior to the 19th century a Christian being cremated was almost unheard of.

Well my friend, I don’t believe we’ve ever directly dialogued before but I’ve appreciated the posts I’ve read of yours in the past. That being said I’ve just realizing the topic of this thread is “Is there salvation without Mary?” and by me quoting your post actually is off topic to the thread. Starting a new thread with a topic of “Is cremation as opposed to relics more disrespectful?” would be interesting but the problem then becomes which forum would be best suited for such a discussion. I first considered the ‘Traditional Theology’ forum but my position probably would be considered a violation of its SoP. Also IMHO I’d prefer the involvement be limited to sacramental Christians as I would think that difference of perspective would only deviate from as least my intention for the discussion.

 

[Unofficial Reverand Alex]

So your saying that if Mary had not been created or if she refused to cooperate then God wouldn’t have sent Christ to save the world? That’s just crazy. God being omnipresent and omniscient chose someone whom He knew would accomplish His goal. So if Mary wasn’t that person He would’ve chose someone else.

That is a fair point, and thank you for sharing. To work with what you said:

Suppose Mary said no. God finds someone else; let's say He found a woman named Sarah. The Incarnation happens, all that happened to Mary happens to Sarah, and the Gospels are the same, minus the name change.

This does not invalidate any notion of salvation coming though a person chosen by God. There would no longer be salvation through Mary (unless Mary preached, baptized, distributed Bibles, or the other ways God lets us participate in His saving grace). But now the question becomes, is there salvation without Sarah? Whoever God may have chosen, the name in the OP's question changes, but the heart of the matter remains the same.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is a fair point, and thank you for sharing. To work with what you said:

Suppose Mary said no. God finds someone else; let's say He found a woman named Sarah. The Incarnation happens, all that happened to Mary happens to Sarah, and the Gospels are the same, minus the name change.

This does not invalidate any notion of salvation coming though a person chosen by God. There would no longer be salvation through Mary (unless Mary preached, baptized, distributed Bibles, or the other ways God lets us participate in His saving grace). But now the question becomes, is there salvation without Sarah? Whoever God may have chosen, the name in the OP's question changes, but the heart of the matter remains the same.

Well we’ve already jumped from is there salvation without Mary to is there salvation without Sarah. So that seems to have already answered the question in the OP and the same situation also pertains to Sarah, or Martha, Becky, or anybody else whom God might’ve chosen. The situation still remains that Christ would’ve been born. So no matter what there would still be salvation without Mary, Sarah, Martha, etc. So by this we could say that salvation is not dependent upon any particular person’s cooperation because it was inevitable.

 

[Unofficial Reverand Alex]

Well we’ve already jumped from is there salvation without Mary to is there salvation without Sarah. So that seems to have already answered the question in the OP and the same situation also pertains to Sarah, or Martha, Becky, or anybody else whom God might’ve chosen. The situation still remains that Christ would’ve been born. So no matter what there would still be salvation without Mary, Sarah, Martha, etc. So by this we could say that salvation is not dependent upon any particular person’s cooperation because it was inevitable.

Alright, let's take it in this direction. It is only inevitable that Christ would be born if He chose to come to Earth through someone else. By choosing a human birth for the Incarnation, there is a woman who cooperates with God's plan to allow the Incarnation to happen. Clearly, God found someone who said "Let it be done unto me", but He could've just as easily (if not more easily) shown up without coming through someone else. Just as Christ ascended into Heaven, without anyone picking Him up, He could've come down from Heaven, arriving to all of us without coming through anyone else.

Somewhere in the Divine Wisdom, God knows it best to allow humans to cooperate with His plan of salvation (see Matthew 28:19-20). Let me ask you, or anyone who may be reading this: Did you baptize yourself? Did you come to faith entirely on your own? Or did God's salvation through faith come to you through someone who evangelized you, be it parents or friends or televangelists?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

read to here

 

[Daniel Marsh]

read to here

 

[George95]

It seems to me that some have an issue with calling Mary the Mother of God, who is the Theotokos(God Bearer).

 

[ChristServant]

Mary only giving birth to and only mothering the humanity of Jesus is a condemned heresy! She is the mother of His entire person, He is God and she is His mother!

So will your church organization excommunicate Christ for Him stating this passage below in scripture for not giving Mary her due reward as you and your church see fit?

46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”

48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother

Peace be to all those in the body of Christ

 

[GreekOrthodox]

So will your church organization excommunicate Christ for Him stating this passage below in scripture for not giving Mary her due reward as you and your church see fit?

Peace be to all those in the body of Christ

Mary as Theotokos or God-bearer, is a statement about Christ being fully divine and fully human at conception. Therefore we can say, God, in the person of Jesus Christ, was conceived, born, lived, suffered, died, and was resurrected.

The title of Mother of God is affirmed by early Reformers as well:

LUTHERAN
This belief was officially confessed by Lutherans in their Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration, article VIII.24:

On account of this personal union and communion of the natures, Mary, the most blessed virgin, did not conceive a mere, ordinary human being, but a human being who is truly the Son of the most high God, as the angel testifies. He demonstrated his divine majesty even in his mother’s womb in that he was born of a virgin without violating her virginity. Therefore she is truly the mother of God and yet remained a virgin.

CALVIN
She [Elizabeth] calls Mary the mother of her Lord This denotes a unity of person in the two natures of Christ; as if she had said, that he who was begotten a mortal man in the womb of Mary is, at the same time, the eternal God. - (Harmony of the Synoptic Gospels, comment under Luke 1:43; Calvini Opera, ibid., vol. 45, 35)

ZWINGLI
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary." - Stakemeier, De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic, ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.

 

[Jaxxi]

Is there salvation without Mary?

is she the mother of our salvation?

our hope?

Where in the Bible does it say Mary can do anything for anyone? Where does it say we are to pray to Mary for be anything? Mary was a mortal woman who merely gave birth to Jesus. I cannot find anything saying Mary even preached the gospel let alone did anything but stand below Jesus as He was crucified and weep. She cannot perform miracles. She cannot bless anyone. She cannot do anything you or I could do once Jesus was born. She was merely a vessel.

 

[splish- splash]

Yes there is 100% salvation without Mary but none without King Jesus. Christ alone is our mediator and not Mary. Christ died for our sins, including His Mother Mary's as she was born in a sinful world, like the rest of us .

1Timothy 2v5 >For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.

Would you mind sharing please though as well, where images & rosaries come in?

 

[Albion]

She brought Jesus into the world...no Mary, no Incarnation.

But if that were the standard, St. Anne (the mother of Mary) would also be the "mother of our salvation" since, without her, there'd be no Mary. And there would also be other such indispensable figures who made possible one or another of the events in the life of Jesus Christ.

Strictly speaking, Mary does not save us, anymore than any other human could. But when somebody baptizes you, or in any way leads you to the belief & salvation of God, can't we say that God's salvation passed through somebody else to you? He is generous with His grace.

 

[concretecamper]

What if Noah said "no" to God when God commanded him to build the Ark. Would anyone been saved from the flood? Would that have been the end of mankind? We do not know. It certainly could have been.

What if Abram told God "forget it" when asked to sacrafice his son. Would God have found someone else? How do you know?

What if Joachim, after the encounter with the angel went off the deep end and killed himself. No Mary, no Saviour.

What if Mary did say No?

Oh, it's a nice belief that God would have found another maiden or way to redeem mankind. But how do you know if we, today, would still be waiting for the Messaih. The answer if you do not know.

Human choices affect ourselves and others. My choices can affect my Children's salvation. Did I raise them in the faith? Was I lukewarm and did i show.a.bad example?

Without Mary's yes, it could have been lights out for us, you do not know.

 

[Unofficial Reverand Alex]

But if that were the standard, St. Anne (the mother of Mary) would also be the "mother of our salvation" since, without her, there'd be no Mary. And there would also be other such indispensable figures who made possible one or another of the events in the life of Jesus Christ.

Naturally; everything's interconnected. The lengthy genealogies to introduce Jesus stand in testimony to this idea. A line of saints & sinners brought forth the Incarnation of our Savior, with a few in particular that are highlighted more often, such as Mary & Joseph, each from the House of David, from the Tribe of Judah. How God works such beauty through such complicated situations is beyond me; the point is that we trust Him, doing what we can to be someone who truly brings Christ into the world.

If you wish to discuss more on this specific subject/speculation about Mary, I refer you to the preceding post from @concretecamper , who gave a better response than I could've at this time.

 

[Valletta]

Where in the Bible does it say Mary can do anything for anyone? Where does it say we are to pray to Mary for be anything? Mary was a mortal woman who merely gave birth to Jesus. I cannot find anything saying Mary even preached the gospel let alone did anything but stand below Jesus as He was crucified and weep. She cannot perform miracles. She cannot bless anyone. She cannot do anything you or I could do once Jesus was born. She was merely a vessel.

Mary was particularly blessed because she said "yes" to God rather than being just a "vessel." Unfortunately over the centuries your religion has apparently lost the importance of Mary's role in salvation history.

 

[Jaxxi]

Mary was particularly blessed because she said "yes" to God rather than being just a "vessel." Unfortunately over the centuries your religion has apparently lost the importance of Mary's role in salvation history.

No, I just cannot find anywhere in the Bible where she holds any real significance other than to stand and cry while Jesus died. What did Mary do after Jesus died? Where did she go? How did she die? Where does it tell us to pray to her and where does it say she can work miracles? Please show me because I cannot find it. And show me where it says Mary can do anything for any mortal man anywhere, and where it gives her authority of any kind. Please.