Is There Faith In Calvinist System?

[Bobber]

But besides that, Biblically, it is not only God who initiated it, but God who did the whole work of Salvation.

Non-Calvinists believe God did the whole work of Salvation. Jesus came to the Earth, he died for our sins and was raised again for our justification. That's the work that he did. Man couldn't do any of that. Man can however choose to receive by faith what God has accomplished. He can't take credit for it any more than a drowning man who embraces a life preserver can claim or would claim he saved himself. All the credit would go to the one who threw out the preserver.

Yes we believe, and yes, we must believe to be saved, but that is a result of the Faith that God has already worked in us through regeneration,

Nope, nope, nope. Sorry but just no. You are not regenerated and then you have faith. You're given faith and it leads you to regeneration.

and our choice according to the new nature that God has already worked in us;

So what exactly do you think you're choosing towards? If you're saying you have the new nature before the choice, well what are you talking about then???? What does your choice produce?

it cannot be a response of natural man who is still at enmity with God and unable to please God,

Sorry but you Calvinists however have put the petal to the metal and taken that verse to the extreme. There's nothing to say that verse can't also basically mean someone can want free like an alcoholic but he needs an impartation from another to actually be doing right. He sees what's right but he can't overcome without others or another. In the sinners case it would be God coming within one with eternal life changing his nature.

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[Hazelelponi]

Is there faith in the Calvinist system? A Calvinist poster stated they tell a sinner that Jesus came to save his people from their sins. I'd say that right there demonstrates they're not giving the sinner by what they say as an ambassador any real FAITH.

They're giving them HOPE but not FAITH. Jesus Christ came and saved his people from their sins. How many people? How do they know who hear this they're one of the especially blessed? They can't. All they can have is HOPE. Now hope is a wonderful biblical thing we have the hope of the return of Jesus Christ but FAITH and HOPE when it comes to salvation is different.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Heb 11:1

FAITH is substantial. Hope is not. Hope is a good thing but it is not faith. And to prove that 1 Cor 13: 13 states,

And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love. 1 Cor 13:13


Not these two but these THREE!

In order for anyone's message to have FAITH it must come across that it's substantial for all.

I'll explain it this way. A wealthy man announces to a crowd of 100 I'm able to give $1000 dollars to everyone here. How many can have (substantial) FAITH they're going to get it. NONE. Faith doesn't rest on just knowing one's ability. The will needs to be expressed what the one is willing to do. He now states, "I'm able to give 70 of you $1000 dollars." How many can have (substantial) FAITH for it? None of them. They can hope they're going to be one of lucky ones but they can't have substantial FAITH. NOW he states, "I'm able to give 100 of you $1000 dollars and I am going to do it" How many now can have substantial FAITH? ALL OF THEM! They're now in the realm of FAITH! The only thing that needs to be addressed is the wealthy man a good character and does he keep his word? Well we KNOW God does!

So there you have it....FAITH

Now a shocking things I'm going to say to Calvinists here. There really is no FAITH in the Calvinist paradigm, that is not in any real true sense of the word. Those who hear Calvinists say God came to save his people from their sins is like saying I'm able to give 70 of you 100, $1000 dollars. They can hope they'll be one of the lucky ones but FAITH? NO. Just hope and not faith.

Now Romans 10 calls the gospel the Word of Faith! Get this and don't let go of it. That therefore means salvation must be for ALL in the same way it's only a message of FAITH is the one says I'm able to give 100 of you $1000 dollars AND...AND I'm going to do it. If they know your word is good and honorable they now have FAITH.


When God said he so loved the world he did not say just the especially blessed. But ALL! And because he said that ALL can have FAITH. I'd say woe to the one who seeks to strip it away from others.

I have absolute faith - but my faith is in GOD to save people and not in people's ability to "make the right choice"

My faith rests wholely in God's ability, and all my trust is in HIM to do what is right (again, not in man's abilities).

God decreed it so, and so it is.

Having faith in God's ability to turn man's heart toward HIM for salvation - and not knowing who before me will someday be my brother and sister in Christ - makes me look at every sinner in a more beautiful light and gives me the ability to love even the worst sinners in such a pure way, because I see how beautiful it will be when God works in them, because I know how beautiful God's work in me was...

Oh I guarantee you that we Calvinist have more than hope, we have absolute faith and what's more, that faith is placed squarely where it belongs - on and in our Triune God.

Our God is so amazing HE even gives us work to do... That of sharing what He's done, and is offering to us all.

My salvation doesn't rest in myself, it didn't begin in me and it didn't end in me, because Christ is Alpha and Omega, and Author and Perfecter of my faith.

 

[Bobber]

Grammatically, the "UNTO" is not causal of salvation; and in the Greek, the preposition can easily mean "concerning" or "as to" salvation.

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Rm 10:9 NIV

NLT says "you will be saved" vs9

EST vs 9 you will be saved vs 10 on confessed and is saved." That's after the order or sequence of believing and confession.

KJV translated by many Calvinists....UNTO salvation

The Greek preposition “εἰς”​

Found more than seventeen hundred times in the New Testament, the Greek preposition “eis” meant “into,” “to,” “toward,” “unto.”

So Mark what you claim easily can mean doesn't quite easily mean what you say.

 

[Bobber]

I have absolute faith - but my faith is in GOD to save people and not in people's ability to "make the right choice"

Thanks for the post but you're off the subject of the OP. The OP is talking in what way the Calvinist message put's faith into the hearts and minds of the hearers. It seems they're given no absolute substantial faith God is willing to save them. The Calvinist message is God could but you never know for sure.

Oh I guarantee you that we Calvinist have more than hope, we have absolute faith and what's more, that faith is placed squarely where it belongs - on and in our Triune God.

Again I'm not talking about YOUR faith YOU have in God and his ability. I'm talking about what FAITH you're putting into the sinner by your message that God IS WILLING to receive them. The sinner knowing of Calvinism could ask you how do I know God even wants me for salvation. If you're saying he's left us in the dark about that what assurance can I ever have? P

 

[Hazelelponi]

I'm talking about what FAITH you're putting into the sinner

What makes you think Calvinists have a different message to the sinner?

Remember, milk for babies meat for the mature. The message is the absolute truth - God has a general call, an open invitation to all of mankind, inviting all into Covenant with Him.

It is that general call that we approach the sinner with.

Don't know how much interaction you and I have had, but I was Muslim when I came to Christ, and I was led to Christ by a Calvinist, at least in part. The Calvinist message to the unsaved is a fine one, very Biblical, a God that is God, not an impotent imposter.

 

[Bobber]

What makes you think Calvinists have a different message to the sinner?

Remember, milk for babies meat for the mature. The message is the absolute truth - God has a general call, an open invitation to all of mankind, inviting all into Covenant with Him.

I don't want to be resisting your statements just for the sake of resisting. I can graciously accept that you give what you call a general call to all mankind inviting all. In that you make a good point. Problem is though we do live in cultures which do understand various groups ways of thinking. There are many that know Calvinists believe God is not willing that all will be saved and some will and even Calvinists can't tell you why God chooses one and not another. It's a great mystery to them. So they're left not knowing for sure or with any faith God will receive them. The Non-Calvinists message doesn't leave the sinner with this concern. God WILL receive all.

Don't know how much interaction you and I have had, but I was Muslim when I came to Christ, and I was led to Christ by a Calvinist, at least in part.

And I do rejoice that you were.

The Calvinist message to the unsaved is a fine one, very Biblical, a God that is God, not an impotent imposter.

So you see what I mean. You're blending Non-Calvinist thinking with the message you say is for the unsaved. I believe I know what you're meaning by your charge that God is not an impotent imposter and I don't buy that argument that a Non-Calvinists message creates that but maybe you can clarify why you say what you do.

 

[Aaron112]

Don't know how much interaction you and I have had, but I was Muslim when I came to Christ, and I was led to Christ by a Calvinist, at least in part. The Calvinist message to the unsaved is a fine one, very Biblical, a God that is God, not an impotent imposter.

This reminded me of the oft quoted Scripture: "No man cometh unto Me/Jesus/ unless a " calvnist? " draws him to Me" ? oops.... nope.
No religion can claim they draw a man to Jesus, any more than Jesus Himself claimed to do so.... and I don't remember Jesus Saying He Did, only the Father can do so...

 

[All Becomes New]

Let me put it this way: Can you "choose" what your favorite kind of ice cream is? Or is it just something that makes up who you are (in a very small way)? This is how I see salvation. People cannot choose what they believe. There is no way of doing that. Sure you have to be exposed to information, and I agree you can help yourself to see what the Truth is more clearly, but it requires a willingness to "receive" the information as true. We don't get to choose what is true (for us personally or what reality is). Rather, we have to accept what reality is. It falls in our laps and if we are in a position as accepting reality as true, then it's really only a passive "choice" or receiving of what is true. So, God sends His grace to us. We either accept it or not, but it's not something we can dream up ourselves and make ourselves an active mover in what is true.

 

[Hazelelponi]

even Calvinists can't tell you why God chooses one and not another

For the Praise of His Glory.

Calvinists could go into great detail as to why limiting salvation and leaving us who are saved quite humble in regards to our salvation Glorifies His Name, but most of us don't care for arguing for the sake of arguing.

The reason I say that is because I'm Calvinist, I think it's important, but it's not salvific.

 

[Hazelelponi]

You're blending Non-Calvinist thinking with the message you say is for the unsaved

No.. I think you're prejudging what exactly it is that Calvinists think, either that or you think I'm some kind of professional apologist which I'm not (only been saved 8 years now)

My husband is a hyper Calvinist, or so called, but I'm not hyper, I'm more moderate than he is. Perhaps your more thinking of his type? Don't worry, you'll never find him on a forum like this - He's that Calvinist.. lol.

There are two calls, one general (and ineffectual) and then there's the particular call, that's the one that is effectual and is God opening the heart toward the truth.

People can have a particular call and never realize it/not be cognizant of it. They just believe, and that's good.

In the general call people refuse it or claim it for some personal (see sinful) benefit because the heart is wicked, it's every desire is sin... It's just not a heart that wants God. They refuse because they love their sin. (God is not the author of sin).

Anyone who truly believes, regardless of denomination, is called (particular call) and is saved. If people want to think they have control over their sin nature and are not a slave to it in their unsaved state then that's their prerogative - I just know better..

I do think that knowledge is actually helpful though.

 

[Aaron112]

Let me put it this way: Can you "choose" what your favorite kind of ice cream is?

haha, might be pertinent here or not. To be and remain healthy, no ice cream at all.

 

[Hazelelponi]

This reminded me of the oft quoted Scripture: "No man cometh unto Me/Jesus/ unless a " calvnist? " draws him to Me" ? oops.... nope.
No religion can claim they draw a man to Jesus, any more than Jesus Himself claimed to do so.... and I don't remember Jesus Saying He Did, only the Father can do so...

I said led not drawn...

I had a lot to work through and God sent me someone who could help me the way I needed because of how I understand things.

 

[ozso]

Perhaps for the reason they're not well understood should bring into question as to how can it be true. The Bible says there's simplicity in the message of Christ that a child should be able to understand.

That's a big problem with Calvinism. It seems one has to pretty much be thoroughly indoctrinated in it to get a proper grasp of it. It seems to not be something that comes at all easy for most. And then there are Calvinists who disagree with other Calvinists regarding all of its variables and nuances.

 

[Hazelelponi]

That's a big problem with Calvinism. It seems one has to pretty much be thoroughly indoctrinated in it to get a proper grasp of it. It seems to not be something that comes at all easy for most. And then there are Calvinists who disagree with other Calvinists regarding all of its variables and nuances.

Notice that's what most people say about Christianity as a whole? It makes no logical sense to the unsaved.

It really doesn't... Had all my mental faculties stretched just trying to figure out why Jesus had to die to forgive people and the Trinity.

Figure if you want to know, asking God for help with that is helpful. (James 1:5 if any of you lacks wisdom...)

It is more in-depth theology though.

 

[ozso]

Notice that's what most people say about Christianity as a whole? It makes no logical sense to the unsaved.

It really doesn't... Had all my mental faculties stretched just trying to figure out why Jesus had to die to forgive people and the Trinity.

Figure if you want to know, asking God for help with that is helpful. (James 1:5 if any of you lacks wisdom...)

It is more in-depth theology though.

The thing is though, I'm talking about knowledgeable experienced Christians.

 

[Lost Witness]

Can you "choose" what your favorite kind of ice cream is?

Rather liked this anology

 

[All Becomes New]

Rather liked this anology

Feel free to steal it!

 

[All Becomes New]

haha, might be pertinent here or not. To be and remain healthy, no ice cream at all.

Sure. Pick your favorite (healthy) food instead.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The thing is though, I'm talking about knowledgeable experienced Christians.

Without having prior theological experience I found it came together this way very naturally - and didn't have a difficult time with it at all.

It may be more challenging to go from thinking about Scripture unfolding in a certain way and then trying to relearn another way of seeing Scripture come together. (this is likely a very poor wording of what I'm trying to convey, but I'm hoping you'll get enough out of that to glean what I mean here)

But again, I think we have to determine whether some of this is salvific (ie essential to understand salvation)

I think some aspects of what is known as Calvinism absolutely are important to grasp salvation, other parts I think are just basic doctrine that may not be enough to be concerned about whether people understand.

Do I think that someone needs to know that the choice they made to serve the Lord was first made in heaven?

Not necessarily - but I think it's helpful to know, because that knowledge makes us glorify God all the more as well as give us more grace and love for the unsaved...

But I don't think it's a matter of salvation to reject the notion. I could be wrong here of course and always, but it's not essential doctrine I don't think.

The reason I mentioned essential doctrine twice is because we aren't supposed to be squabbling over matters that aren't important.

It's one thing to discuss in order to better understand or make sure of the soundness of our own doctrine, it's another entirely to just fight.. and this forum seems like a lot of fighting for the sake of fighting.

I just feel like arguing is bad for the unsaved... It's not good for them, and we have commands to follow.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Interesting the rendering of 1 Peter 1:25

1 Peter 1:25
25. But the word of the Lord endureth for ever.
And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

The word translated "unto" in the Greek is "eis" usually translated "into."

"And this is the word which by the gospel is preached into you."
This leaves the impression that the word is preached into us - no choice on our part. The ears are open, the words flow in, faith is generated, salvation accomplished. All with zero participation of the mind. I wrote a book on this a couple decades ago "Suddenly Saved."


Strongs
εἰς
eis
Total KJV Occurrences: 829
into, 576


Also, the word is used 1693 times in the NT. It is translate "among" 18 times, which would also make sense.

"And this is the word which by the gospel is preached among you."

Thanks, SGB3

As I recall, εἰς (eis), in its root meaning, is something along the lines of "toward" or "unto"; in this context it could even have been "preached AT you" But I like "into" better!

"Into" also works well in Romans 9:9, 10 "confession made unto salvation", without implying causality.

I just finished sending @Xeno.of.athens and @Clare73 a post (#80, in the thread, Sola Fide) concerning Romans 6:16 and the difference between how translators use εἰς in, "Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?" In both Strong's and WH it is meant, "into", just as you said. Sola Fide

To me, it is very interesting, the different nuances of meaning and implications a translation of a preposition can make.