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Is There Faith In Calvinist System?

Bobber

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The gospel is a two-fold announcement:
1) the wrath (Ro 5:9) and condemnation of God (Ro 5:18) on all mankind, and
2) salvation from that wrath and condemnation by the shed blood of Jesus Christ for those who believe in and trust on his atoning sacrifice (blood, Ro 3:25) for the forgiveness of their sin which condemns them.

Some believe it, some don't.

The preacher who delivers the message does not give anyone faith, nor does the message give faith to all who hear it.
And I'd say again sorry but you're rejecting what Paul stated that the gospel is called the word of Faith. The gospel message is designed by it's very nature to put FAITH into the one who hears. They however must act upon the understanding the gospel message brings and with their knowing God is good and keeps his word they'll believe in their heart and confess with their mouth and it states by doing those two things it takes them UNTO ....UNTO salvation. It's not salvation you've got it, it states it takes them UNTO it. Please read Rom 10: 9,10
 
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Clare73

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And Clare I'd say you have no justification for saying that except you're wanting to make Calvinism seem true.

Other than grammar.

It states Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

There's nothing to say it's US going to it. The preacher preaches and FAITH is imparted. Sorry but it can't get any more clear than that.

Yes FAITH comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So what are you even talking about (in your quote above) in saying it's not coming to you? It seems you're contradicting yourself.
I quote: "If it comes by hearing the hearing is taking you to it."

"Taking" is going, it is not coming.
The word says faith comes to you (not you go to it) by hearing.

I'm not the one contradicting myself.
 
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Bobber

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Of course it is in part about us! After all, God would not have done it if it didn't have our redemption and glorification as its product. My point, which maybe isn't as obvious as I think, in saying this life is not about us, is that that it is about Christ. The focus is Christ —not us.
And I've already told you Mark I agree with some aspects of what you've said. I do believe I've heard others though through the years so downplay we as human individual almost like we're a mere number with no significance whatsoever. There's so many that think they're such a nothing in the universe and it can take them or leave them ....no loss. He feels the hurts the longings and his compassion towards all of his creation. Sorry but this is what I think Calvinism takes away form humanity.

Of course one can get lazy! Of course one can deceive oneself! One can do that in any configuration of doctrine. There is much we need to be aware of and much to avoid and much to pursue!
But you did say one shouldn't worry about if they're the elect. Of course you're using the word worry against my arguments but to say you shouldn't worry about whether you're saved can so very easily be considered don't have a second thought about it. Don't bother to examine yourself to see if you're in the faith, just give that up and assume you are. Not a very good thing to do .

Scripture said we're to examine ourselves....so if you're in agreement which it seems you now are (or you would claim you always were) then OK fine we agree. One MUST examine themselves.


How does that mean your self-determining configuration is more secure than one where God owns all fact?
Where....God....owns....all....fact. I admit I need things clearly stated Mark. Please do so here.

Are you even serious?? You think that what I espouse means we should not "examine ourselves" and should not work to "make our calling and election sure"?
If you stated one shouldn't worry about if they're one of the elect yes. And many I think would interpret that to mean don't even have a second thought about examining yourself. They would consider that as worrying about whether one is the elect. You have made it clear now though. You've stated one should be concerned enough to examine oneself. That's the type of wording I'd suggest you should stay with.

 
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Clare73

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And I've already told you Mark I agree with some aspects of what you've said. I do believe I've heard others though through the years so downplay we as human individual almost like we're a mere number with no significance whatsoever. There's so many that think they're such a nothing in the universe and it can take them or leave them ....no loss. He feels the hurts the longings and his compassion towards all of his creation. Sorry but this is what I think Calvinism takes away form humanity.

Or John Calvin was able to believe the whole counsel of God, not maintaining a one-sided view of him that God has to be either just or loving, but he cannot be both, and which view does not address the word of God in Jn 3:36, Ro 1:18, Ro 2:5, Ro 5:9, Ro 5:18, Ro 9:22, or Eph 2:3.
 
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Bobber

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Do you really think that exalting God and affirming his immanent work implies that we do nothing???
Now wouldn't that all depend on the amount of work you're saying God is doing? You must admit some Calvinist are very extreme in what they say.


—What is it about Arminians? I have tried for years to describe this odd point-of-view that (to me, at least) demonstrates a penchant —no, an insistence!— for self-determination and elevation of the human to the point that eternity depends on him to the exclusion of it depending on GOD who made it.
Well then I'd need to read the quotation from whoever you're talking about. Who knows. I might agree with you. But then again I might not.

Oh for crying out loud! My security is in Christ. Not in self, like it is for the Arminian. I am not putting out an unsafe, false security,
I'd have to read a lot more of your posts to see how solid you are on the word of God. There are MANY, MANY, MANY Jesus said who would say words similar to their security is in Christ. Jesus put it this way many would say Lord, Lord and he would reply I never knew you. Not implying he'd say that to you....I don't know you even to have an opinion on that......but to many he will.


 
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Mark Quayle

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Don't fret about it Mark. One thing I don't do is take to heart any put down a Calvinist wants to give me when they're the ones IMO that are either ignorant or willfully insulting the Spirit of Grace. Agreed that sounds strong but I do firmly believe your doctrines are diminishing in the hearts and minds of men the way God would want men to think of his grace so as I said don't worry. I won't take what you say to heart.
The apparent results of the truth on the reactions of men are not a measure of the truth.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Now wouldn't that all depend on the amount of work you're saying God is doing? You must admit some Calvinist are very extreme in what they say.
Granted. But it is a mistake to say that the work of man in any obedience is not also, (and to the point of no contest), the work of God in him.
Well then I'd need to read the quotation from whoever you're talking about. Who knows. I might agree with you. But then again I might not.
Just read through any debate on this site concerning free will vs predestination. It is there in spades. I've even read from an Arminian that man's eternal destiny is 100% up to man. Pelagianism hello!
I'd have to read a lot more of your posts to see how solid you are on the word of God. There are MANY, MANY, MANY Jesus said who would say words similar to their security is in Christ. Jesus put it this way many would say Lord, Lord and he would reply I never knew you. Not implying he'd say that to you....I don't know you even to have an opinion on that......but to many he will.
Granted. So read them, if you deem it worth your time. You still have not answered my questions which I need answered before I will consider your extrapolations of what the Word says. As I have said before, I do not find in what I have read of your posts, reason to place any confidence in your thinking.
 
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Mark Quayle

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@SavedByGrace3 said:
So I think the question is which comes first, the Chicken or the Egg. If the initiator of your salvation is God, then why you? Did He know who would respond and so only works with those who who will? There is evidence for that in the word.

John 1
12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Having reread this after responding, I see there is something else needing addressed, besides the matter of who is the 'initiator of your salvation" or even the initiator of [the process] of salvation, and John's use of the term, "received":

@SavedByGrace3 , If you meant this as an argument for the notion that, if it was God who initiated your salvation as a result of "know[ing] who would respond and so only works with those who who will", that is Biblically wrong and logically absurd. If it was God who initiated it, the argument that it is God who initiated it, is evidence of GRACE, not not the result of anyone's response.

But besides that, Biblically, it is not only God who initiated it, but God who did the whole work of Salvation. Yes we believe, and yes, we must believe to be saved, but that is a result of the Faith that God has already worked in us through regeneration, and our choice according to the new nature that God has already worked in us; it cannot be a response of natural man who is still at enmity with God and unable to please God, per Romans 8. Or do you think that believing the Gospel and trusting in Christ does not please God?

This halfway 'sort of' nature of fallen man to effect salvation is a fiction. It is all the work of God, in transforming death to life.

GRACE
 
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Mark Quayle

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And Clare I'd say you have no justification for saying that except you're wanting to make Calvinism seem true.

It states Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

There's nothing to say it's US going to it. The preacher preaches and FAITH is imparted. Sorry but it can't get any more clear than that.

Yes FAITH comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So what are you even talking about (in your quote above) in saying it's not coming to you? It seems you're contradicting yourself.
You sound to me to be denying that God elects specific individuals, whom rather obviously he intended from the beginning to be the Body and Bride of Christ, and the Dwelling Place of God. Do you honestly think that her form and perfection is drawn from a random beginning? Do you honestly think he isn't particular concerning which building materials he uses, and that he isn't particular in what he does to those materials in constructing such a place?

"But who is able to build a house for Him, since the heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain Him?"
 
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Bobber

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Just read through any debate on this site concerning free will vs predestination. It is there in spades. I've even read from an Arminian that man's eternal destiny is 100% up to man. Pelagianism hello!
I don't believe any Arminian or lets just say Non-Calvinist believes man's eternal destiny is 100% up to man. Such a statement would have to mean Jesus didn't even have a need to go to the cross and die for our sins. Your 100 % up to man needs to be defined. Surely you should agree with that.

As I have said before, I do not find in what I have read of your posts, reason to place any confidence in your thinking.
Well just don't throw it away too quickly. As they say take time to think through on the issue even if you think you're right.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Where....God....owns....all....fact. I admit I need things clearly stated Mark. Please do so here.
Maybe I should have you read my second response below first. Here I have made a statement without much explanation with "...where God owns all fact..." I do have a habit of talking past people sometimes, and not explaining why I said what I say. I can't always blame it on what I'm afraid will happen here, that what I say to explain will cause even more confusion! I do have a tendency even, or maybe specially, in my less concise statements, to assume the listener automatically considers and/or agrees with things that I assume, that they do not.


The short version is: I said, "...where God owns all fact..." as over against the Arminian notion that he does not actually control all things. Arminians seem to think that man owns some of it that God does not.

But that is too short, and invites some objections, such as that if only "God owns all fact", that God then is responsible and man is not, for man's sin. Obviously, I do not suggest man is not responsible for his own sin.


The longer version has everything to do with the "Aseity of God" and the "Simplicity of God" not to mention the usual qualities we quite rightly attribute to him, such as Omnipotence and Immanence. For the sake of approaching bedtime and my ever-increasing age, as attractive as it is to go there, I will refrain for tonight. I will just say that God is in and of himself altogether the only 'brute fact' and all other fact is caused by (or in some descriptions, 'descended of'), him, so that what we perceive and organize in our minds as reality, is not by any means the whole story.

Ok, I will say this too: God is by definition of 'omnipotence', or 'first cause', not subject to anything else. He does not "live up to any principles or fact" to which we in our thinking might subject him to —all fact comes from him, to include reality itself, and all else: logic and math, matter and energy, beauty and pleasure, governing principles and everything we consider truth, and, it also means that suffering and sin also descend logically, in some way, from him, (but I will object vehemently to the claim that I imply he is "the author of sin" or that he sins in any way, or even tempts anyone to sin).
If you stated one shouldn't worry about if they're one of the elect yes. And many I think would interpret that to mean don't even have a second thought about examining yourself. They would consider that as worrying about whether one is the elect. You have made it clear now though. You've stated one should be concerned enough to examine oneself. That's the type of wording I'd suggest you should stay with.
Point taken, and it is a good one. I will try to do better at that, though I can't promise satisfactory results.

FWIW my point, which I took to be obvious, is that the outlook of the Reformed/Calvinist is by nature that of one attempting to understand all things from God's point of view, as opposed to this temporal point of view to which we are all currently subject. As such, we can run into the discovery that this life is about Christ, and not about us (or only secondarily about us). With the heart and mind there, many things, particularly worries, fade away into gratefulness and admiration for the indescribable God who had mercy on sinners, and that, for his own sake. With that last sentence, I hope you can agree.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Sure. And as you said it goes both ways. So how about we just talk nice to each other and deal with the subject and theme.
Good point. You are right it does go both ways. I'm sorry, Bobber, but until I get the answer from you I keep requesting, I have no desire to get into the subject / theme you are espousing.

What exactly, does "Revelation" mean, as you use it —insight only? What?
And what is your stance on modern day prophets?
 
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Mark Quayle

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I don't believe any Arminian or lets just say Non-Calvinist believes man's eternal destiny is 100% up to man. Such a statement would have to mean Jesus didn't even have a need to go to the cross and die for our sins. Your 100 % up to man needs to be defined. Surely you should agree with that.
You might be surprised, but yes, I agree what the person who said that meant is obviously subject to definition.
Well just don't throw it away too quickly. As they say take time to think through on the issue even if you think you're right.
I will admit to some curiosity, but have no interest to study what you have to say nor to debate it, until I know where you stand on the issue of modern prophets and get from you a concise useful definition of 'revelation' as you use it. I've seen you throw it around as though it doesn't matter what it means.
 
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All Becomes New

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Is there faith in the Calvinist system? A Calvinist poster stated they tell a sinner that Jesus came to save his people from their sins. I'd say that right there demonstrates they're not giving the sinner by what they say as an ambassador any real FAITH.

They're giving them HOPE but not FAITH. Jesus Christ came and saved his people from their sins. How many people? How do they know who hear this they're one of the especially blessed? They can't. All they can have is HOPE. Now hope is a wonderful biblical thing we have the hope of the return of Jesus Christ but FAITH and HOPE when it comes to salvation is different.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Heb 11:1

FAITH is substantial. Hope is not. Hope is a good thing but it is not faith. And to prove that 1 Cor 13: 13 states,

And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love. 1 Cor 13:13


Not these two but these THREE!

In order for anyone's message to have FAITH it must come across that it's substantial for all.

I'll explain it this way. A wealthy man announces to a crowd of 100 I'm able to give $1000 dollars to everyone here. How many can have (substantial) FAITH they're going to get it. NONE. Faith doesn't rest on just knowing one's ability. The will needs to be expressed what the one is willing to do. He now states, "I'm able to give 70 of you $1000 dollars." How many can have (substantial) FAITH for it? None of them. They can hope they're going to be one of lucky ones but they can't have substantial FAITH. NOW he states, "I'm able to give 100 of you $1000 dollars and I am going to do it" How many now can have substantial FAITH? ALL OF THEM! They're now in the realm of FAITH! The only thing that needs to be addressed is the wealthy man a good character and does he keep his word? Well we KNOW God does!

So there you have it....FAITH

Now a shocking things I'm going to say to Calvinists here. There really is no FAITH in the Calvinist paradigm, that is not in any real true sense of the word. Those who hear Calvinists say God came to save his people from their sins is like saying I'm able to give 70 of you 100, $1000 dollars. They can hope they'll be one of the lucky ones but FAITH? NO. Just hope and not faith.

Now Romans 10 calls the gospel the Word of Faith! Get this and don't let go of it. That therefore means salvation must be for ALL in the same way it's only a message of FAITH is the one says I'm able to give 100 of you $1000 dollars AND...AND I'm going to do it. If they know your word is good and honorable they now have FAITH.


When God said he so loved the world he did not say just the especially blessed. But ALL! And because he said that ALL can have FAITH. I'd say woe to the one who seeks to strip it away from others.

Terrible mischaracterization of Calvinism. And I'm not a Calvinist myself. Can you name a single prominent Calvinist who thinks faith is not necessary for salvation? My guess is you can't. Further, I can't give anyone else faith about anything. It's the Holy Spirit that does that, not me.
 
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Clare73

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And I'd say again sorry but you're rejecting what Paul stated that the gospel is called the word of Faith. The gospel message is designed by it's very nature to put FAITH into the one who hears.

Ro 10:1-10 is about the difference between the word of faith and the word of law for salvation.

The word of faith is gospel, and the word of law is law keeping.

The gospel is called the "word of faith" because
it is the ordinary means by which faith is produced and imparted,
salvation is by the "word of faith" (gospel), not by the word of the law,
the "word of faith" proclaimed is salvation by confessing the Lord Jesus and believing in the heart that God raised him from the dead.

They however must act upon the understanding the gospel message brings and with their knowing God is good and keeps his word they'll believe in their heart and confess with their mouth and it states by doing those two things it takes them UNTO ....UNTO salvation. It's not salvation you've got it, it states it takes them UNTO it. Please read Rom 10: 9,10
Where do you find this phrase in Ro 10?
 
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Mark Quayle

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And I'd say again sorry but you're rejecting what Paul stated that the gospel is called the word of Faith. The gospel message is designed by it's very nature to put FAITH into the one who hears. They however must act upon the understanding the gospel message brings and with their knowing God is good and keeps his word they'll believe in their heart and confess with their mouth and it states by doing those two things it takes them UNTO ....UNTO salvation. It's not salvation you've got it, it states it takes them UNTO it. Please read Rom 10: 9,10
Grammatically, the "UNTO" is not causal of salvation; and in the Greek, the preposition can easily mean "concerning" or "as to" salvation.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Interesting the rendering of 1 Peter 1:25

1 Peter 1:25
25. But the word of the Lord endureth for ever.
And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

The word translated "unto" in the Greek is "eis" usually translated "into."

"And this is the word which by the gospel is preached into you."
This leaves the impression that the word is preached into us - no choice on our part. The ears are open, the words flow in, faith is generated, salvation accomplished. All with zero participation of the mind. I wrote a book on this a couple decades ago "Suddenly Saved."


Strongs
εἰς
eis
Total KJV Occurrences: 829
into, 576


Also, the word is used 1693 times in the NT. It is translate "among" 18 times, which would also make sense.

"And this is the word which by the gospel is preached among you."
 
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