Is There Faith In Calvinist System?

[Mark Quayle]

But aren't you evading what your theology really states. You have to go back before they were born in it. You have to go back before they loved it. You have to go to your theology which says God ordained before creation that they WOULD be born into it and love it. You have God wanting them to have loved it and took measures by ordaining that they would.

Instead of pointing out that it was YOUR analogy and far from apt, I should just say, "Why don't you go all the way and make your point?" God ordained that they be 6 feet underground. Don't mess around with halfway statements —I believe that from the foundation of the world, God ordained that absolutely every detail, every motion of every particle, and every puzzlement of every scientist and philosopher, every pain and suffering, come to pass precisely as it does, for his own purposes. Logic demands it and scripture describes it. And God doesn't shrink from declaring it. He doesn't need anyone to excuse him. But that is only part of the story— the more fleeting, vaporous part.

First of all lets make this clear. God wants to give and impart salvation to ALL.

Bare assertion. And rather obviously, by Scripture and by logic, false. Yeah, and without me showing it, bare assertion also. Beyond that, I would like you to show that you know what it means by God "WANTS". This is God, we are talking about. Not one of us humans.

You theology creates a God that doesn't have the character of God revealed in the scriptures

Bare assertion. Can you not find where Scriptures shows an angry God, a jealous God, a vengeful God? Or more to the point, a Holy, Pure God, a just God, a particular God, the Omnipotent God of Aseity, Simplicity, and Immanence. The God who owes nobody anything —not even an explanation. And yet he had such love that he made all this for what is to come, for us, to the praise of his glory, just as Scripture shows. Fit what you believe around that. Don't fit that around your belief.

And as I said as a Non Calvinsit I don't have to answer a question does the sinner deserve to be saved. I've stated God has so chosen to put such a tremendous value on every person on the earth so why should I answer do we deserve that.

Do you have scripture demonstrating that God is not particular whom he uses as materials for his dwelling place? That the members of the flawless Bride of Christ are a haphazard conglomeration of whoever by chance decided right? That he chooses them according to their willingness to cooperate and be shaped, and not by the counsel of his own will before the foundation of the world —before they were even in Adam?

What do we know about the tremendous value of a person? I can guarantee you that we see that wrong. We place the value intrinsically, and we can do no better, but he places it on his use for them and his end for them. And no, I don't know who will be where at the end, except as he gives me confidence in my prayer and affections concerning them.

You paradigm however makes God responsible for having a part in orchestrating that he wanted men to sin and then punish them for it. It is a valid statement to say with your theology men do deserve to have the right to be saved and not to be punished in such an unjust way.

No. I don't say he has a part. He is default fact; he is the only "brute fact". The whole thing is his from start to finish. And we play a part within what he is doing. We are not in the same wrestling ring, tag teaming.

So what about others' beyond yourself? What about those you call not the elect. So you tell us what do they have to be thankful for. That favoritism was shown to others and that they somehow must be punished by some strange concept Calvinists have that it demonstrates the character of God? Youll say such things like to the praise of the glory of his grace or something similar, none of which makes any rational sense.

You sound like my wife did, and to whom I often felt like saying, "Why can't you say, 'It makes no sense to me'!" But as to your question of what the non-elect have to be thankful for, it is a bogus question. They are not thankful. Why would you ask?

But, if you mean, "In what way does God show them any grace or mercy in the Calvinist view?", take a look at Total Depravity. By the Grace and Mercy of God, he restrains their rush into evil. They are not as depraved as they would have become if he did not restrain them. Also, there is what we refer to as common grace, such as the fact that he makes it to rain upon the just and unjust alike. He gives them life, and helps them live productively. There is much more than that, besides, but they are not grateful. Before you were born again, was not God good to you? So it is with the reprobate. Like with us, God has not treated them as their deeds deserve.

 

[Hammster]

The use of "God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew." in Romans 11:2 is past tense. Examples of "His people whom he foreknew" in verses that immediately follow reference OT saints Elijah and David. who had long ago left this planet. Elijah left in a flaming chariot - what a way to go!

It’s past tense because God knew beforehand. It’s not that He knew some in the past, and will know some in the future. That only flies in open theism.

 

[Bobber]

Is there faith in the Calvinist system? A Calvinist poster stated they tell a sinner that Jesus came to save his people from their sins. I'd say that right there demonstrates they're not giving the sinner by what they say as an ambassador any real FAITH.

They're giving them HOPE but not FAITH. Jesus Christ came and saved his people from their sins. How many people? How do they know who hear this they're one of the especially blessed? They can't. All they can have is HOPE. Now hope is a wonderful biblical thing we have the hope of the return of Jesus Christ but FAITH and HOPE when it comes to salvation is different.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Heb 11:1

FAITH is substantial. Hope is not. Hope is a good thing but it is not faith. And to prove that 1 Cor 13: 13 states,

And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love. 1 Cor 13:13


Not these two but these THREE!

In order for anyone's message to have FAITH it must come across that it's substantial for all.

I'll explain it this way. A wealthy man announces to a crowd of 100 I'm able to give $1000 dollars to everyone here. How many can have (substantial) FAITH they're going to get it. NONE. Faith doesn't rest on just knowing one's ability. The will needs to be expressed what the one is willing to do. He now states, "I'm able to give 70 of you $1000 dollars." How many can have (substantial) FAITH for it? None of them. They can hope they're going to be one of lucky ones but they can't have substantial FAITH. NOW he states, "I'm able to give 100 of you $1000 dollars and I am going to do it" How many now can have substantial FAITH? ALL OF THEM! They're now in the realm of FAITH! The only thing that needs to be addressed is the wealthy man a good character and does he keep his word? Well we KNOW God does!

So there you have it....FAITH

Now a shocking things I'm going to say to Calvinists here. There really is no FAITH in the Calvinist paradigm, that is not in any real true sense of the word. Those who hear Calvinists say God came to save his people from their sins is like saying I'm able to give 70 of you 100, $1000 dollars. They can hope they'll be one of the lucky ones but FAITH? NO. Just hope and not faith.

Now Romans 10 calls the gospel the Word of Faith! Get this and don't let go of it. That therefore means salvation must be for ALL in the same way it's only a message of FAITH is the one says I'm able to give 100 of you $1000 dollars AND...AND I'm going to do it. If they know your word is good and honorable they now have FAITH.


When God said he so loved the world he did not say just the especially blessed. But ALL! And because he said that ALL can have FAITH. I'd say woe to the one who seeks to strip it away from others.

 

[d taylor]

-​

Every person ever born has the ability to exercise faith in something or someone. It is just that some people simply do not exercise their faith in The Messiah The Biblical God. Many look to themselves or to false gods/religions or to science, etc...

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Is there faith in the Calvinist system? A Calvinist poster stated they tell a sinner that Jesus came to save his people from their sins. I'd say that right there demonstrates they're not giving the sinner by what they say as an ambassador any real FAITH.

They're giving them HOPE but not FAITH. Jesus Christ came and saved his people from their sins. How many people? How do they know who hear this they're one of the especially blessed? They can't. All they can have is HOPE. Now hope is a wonderful biblical thing we have the hope of the return of Jesus Christ but FAITH and HOPE when it comes to salvation is different.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Heb 11:1

FAITH is substantial. Hope is not. Hope is a good thing but it is not faith. And to prove that 1 Cor 13: 13 states,

And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love. 1 Cor 13:13


Not these two but these THREE!

In order for anyone's message to have FAITH it must come across that it's substantial for all.

I'll explain it this way. A wealthy man announces to a crowd of 100 I'm able to give $1000 dollars to everyone here. How many can have (substantial) FAITH they're going to get it. NONE. Faith doesn't rest on just knowing one's ability. The will needs to be expressed what the one is willing to do. He now states, "I'm able to give 70 of you $1000 dollars." How many can have (substantial) FAITH for it? None of them. They can hope they're going to be one of lucky ones but they can't have substantial FAITH. NOW he states, "I'm able to give 100 of you $1000 dollars and I am going to do it" How many now can have substantial FAITH? ALL OF THEM! They're now in the realm of FAITH! The only thing that needs to be addressed is the wealthy man a good character and does he keep his word? Well we KNOW God does!

So there you have it....FAITH

Now a shocking things I'm going to say to Calvinists here. There really is no FAITH in the Calvinist paradigm, that is not in any real true sense of the word. Those who hear Calvinists say God came to save his people from their sins is like saying I'm able to give 70 of you 100, $1000 dollars. They can hope they'll be one of the lucky ones but FAITH? NO. Just hope and not faith.

Now Romans 10 calls the gospel the Word of Faith! Get this and don't let go of it. That therefore means salvation must be for ALL in the same way it's only a message of FAITH is the one says I'm able to give 100 of you $1000 dollars AND...AND I'm going to do it. If they know your word is good and honorable they now have FAITH.


When God said he so loved the world he did not say just the especially blessed. But ALL! And because he said that ALL can have FAITH. I'd say woe to the one who seeks to strip it away from others.

There would be no Christians if unbelivers were led to TULIP first. Full disclosure is impossible as they would question whether God chose them. A conundrum at best.
Blessings

 

[AbbaLove]

There would be no Christians if unbelivers were led to TULIP first. Full disclosure is impossible as they would question whether God chose them. A conundrum at best.
Blessings

Don't some Calvinsit reformers believe that "TULIP Christians" never were unbelievers ... just [temporarily] misinformed ...

 

[AbbaLove]

Every person ever born has the ability to exercise faith in something or someone. It is just that some people simply do not exercise their faith in The Messiah The Biblical God. Many look to themselves or to false gods/religions or to science, etc...

Faith is one of the nine Supernatural Gifts of the Holy Spirit listed in 1 Corinthians 12:8-11. Some translations/commentaries refer to this Supernatural Gift as "special" Faith or "wonder-working" Faith.

"For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,'
and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you." (Matthew 17:20-21).​

Is this kind of FAITH possible for every "born again" Follower of Christ Jesus ... or ... was it just for HIS original Apostles ... or ...is this [special] FAITH only possible according to HIS Will for a "born again" Believer?

 

[d taylor]

Faith is one of the nine Supernatural Gifts of the Holy Spirit listed in 1 Corinthians 12:8-11. Some translations/commentaries refer to this Supernatural Gift as "special" Faith or "wonder-working" Faith.

"For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,'​

and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you." (Matthew 17:20-21).​

Is this kind of FAITH possible for every "born again" Follower of Christ Jesus ... or ... was it just for HIS original Apostles ... or ...is this [special] FAITH only possible according to HIS Will for a "born again" Believer?

The faith in 1 Corinthians is a gift given by The Holy Spirit to believers to work in The Body of Christ as is seen the other gifts also given to believers. So they may work as different parts but functioning as one body.

I see no connection to 1st Corinthians and the faith an unbeliever uses to trust in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life. To which this now believer may then be given one of the gifts that The Holy Spirit gives.

 

[Clare73]

Is there faith in the Calvinist system? A Calvinist poster stated they tell a sinner that Jesus came to save his people from their sins. I'd say that right there demonstrates they're not giving the sinner by what they say as an ambassador any real FAITH.

I'm sure you realize that we don't give anyone faith, right?

They're giving them HOPE but not FAITH. Jesus Christ came and saved his people from their sins. How many people? How do they know who hear this they're one of the especially blessed? They can't. All they can have is HOPE. Now hope is a wonderful biblical thing we have the hope of the return of Jesus Christ but FAITH and HOPE when it comes to salvation is different.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Heb 11:1

FAITH is substantial. Hope is not. Hope is a good thing but it is not faith. And to prove that 1 Cor 13: 13 states,

And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love. 1 Cor 13:13


Not these two but these THREE!

In order for anyone's message to have FAITH it must come across that it's substantial for all.

I'll explain it this way. A wealthy man announces to a crowd of 100 I'm able to give $1000 dollars to everyone here. How many can have (substantial) FAITH they're going to get it. NONE. Faith doesn't rest on just knowing one's ability. The will needs to be expressed what the one is willing to do. He now states, "I'm able to give 70 of you $1000 dollars." How many can have (substantial) FAITH for it? None of them. They can hope they're going to be one of lucky ones but they can't have substantial FAITH.

NOW he states, "I'm able to give 100 of you $1000 dollars and I am going to do it" How many now can have substantial FAITH? ALL OF THEM!
They're now in the realm of FAITH! The only thing that needs to be addressed is the wealthy man a good character and does he keep his word? Well we KNOW God does!

So there you have it....FAITH

However, saving faith is not about believing God will do what he says he will do.

Saving faith is believing in and trusting on the atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) and person of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with Gods justice; i.e., not guilty.

God gives salvation to all who do so.

And with this, Calvin is in 100% agreement.

 

[Blade]

If we know something about Calvinist its not wise to lump all of them together. If we know Calvinist then you know why I say that. A few lines of text.. thanks but you proved nothing. I would state exactly what they believe then what Gods word says. As for faith.. for me what you posted is not faith. "Now faith is" AMP "Now faith is the assurance (title deed, confirmation) of things hoped for (divinely guaranteed), and the evidence of things not seen [the conviction of their reality—faith comprehends as fact what cannot be experienced by the physical senses]."

The way you talked about faith. Both times you say "he is able" then adding "I am going to do it" as if that changed everything. Where does faith come in? You could lie and still get $1000. You could just stand there. What so ever you desire when you pray believe you receive it you shall have it. So you asked the Father in Jesus name something anything that lines up with the word. You don't hope you receive it you already have it. What does believe you receive it mean? Faith. That "faith" you have is the evidence of things hopped for. Anything in the word of God where it says "GOD said" things like that you don't have to ask for you already have it. I don't hope some day I will be saved. I am saved. I feel nothing I see nothing yet I am saved. What I say here is not much better for Rom talks about faith. Best to quote the word.

Anyway

 

[The Liturgist]

Indeed. Also my friends @hedrick and @Mark Quayle and @Clare73 do a very good job of explaining nuances of Calvinism that are not well understood.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Is there faith in the Calvinist system? A Calvinist poster stated they tell a sinner that Jesus came to save his people from their sins. I'd say that right there demonstrates they're not giving the sinner by what they say as an ambassador any real FAITH.

They're giving them HOPE but not FAITH. Jesus Christ came and saved his people from their sins. How many people? How do they know who hear this they're one of the especially blessed? They can't. All they can have is HOPE. Now hope is a wonderful biblical thing we have the hope of the return of Jesus Christ but FAITH and HOPE when it comes to salvation is different.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Heb 11:1

FAITH is substantial. Hope is not. Hope is a good thing but it is not faith. And to prove that 1 Cor 13: 13 states,

And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love. 1 Cor 13:13


Not these two but these THREE!

In order for anyone's message to have FAITH it must come across that it's substantial for all.

I'll explain it this way. A wealthy man announces to a crowd of 100 I'm able to give $1000 dollars to everyone here. How many can have (substantial) FAITH they're going to get it. NONE. Faith doesn't rest on just knowing one's ability. The will needs to be expressed what the one is willing to do. He now states, "I'm able to give 70 of you $1000 dollars." How many can have (substantial) FAITH for it? None of them. They can hope they're going to be one of lucky ones but they can't have substantial FAITH. NOW he states, "I'm able to give 100 of you $1000 dollars and I am going to do it" How many now can have substantial FAITH? ALL OF THEM! They're now in the realm of FAITH! The only thing that needs to be addressed is the wealthy man a good character and does he keep his word? Well we KNOW God does!

So there you have it....FAITH

Now a shocking things I'm going to say to Calvinists here. There really is no FAITH in the Calvinist paradigm, that is not in any real true sense of the word. Those who hear Calvinists say God came to save his people from their sins is like saying I'm able to give 70 of you 100, $1000 dollars. They can hope they'll be one of the lucky ones but FAITH? NO. Just hope and not faith.

Now Romans 10 calls the gospel the Word of Faith! Get this and don't let go of it. That therefore means salvation must be for ALL in the same way it's only a message of FAITH is the one says I'm able to give 100 of you $1000 dollars AND...AND I'm going to do it. If they know your word is good and honorable they now have FAITH.


When God said he so loved the world he did not say just the especially blessed. But ALL! And because he said that ALL can have FAITH. I'd say woe to the one who seeks to strip it away from others.

I think that this passage is relevant to what you are talking about:

1 John 5:14-15
14. And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15. And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

So the implication here is that if we ask for something that is not within His will, He does not even hear it. It is not that He says no, He just does not hear the request. Also, if He does hear the request, then we know we have the petitions. This is the confidence (faith, assurance, trust) that we have.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Don't some Calvinsit reformers believe that "TULIP Christians" never were unbelievers ... just [temporarily] misinformed ...

No.

 

[Bobber]

I'm sure you realize that we don't give anyone faith, right?



However, saving faith is not about believing God will do what he says he will do.

Saving faith is believing in and trusting on the atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) and person of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with Gods justice; i.e., not guilty.

God gives salvation to all who do so.

And with this, Calvin is in 100% agreement.

Calvinism does not instill within the sinner with any substantial confidence or faith that this salvation belongs to the one of whom they speak. They're own way of thinking is maybe they'll be one of the lucky ones or the especially blessed.

 

[Bobber]

Indeed. Also my friends @hedrick and @Mark Quayle and @Clare73 do a very good job of explaining nuances of Calvinism that are not well understood.

Perhaps for the reason they're not well understood should bring into question as to how can it be true. The Bible says there's simplicity in the message of Christ that a child should be able to understand.

 

[Bobber]

If we know something about Calvinist its not wise to lump all of them together.

I can agree with that.

As for faith.. for me what you posted is not faith. "Now faith is" AMP "Now faith is the assurance (title deed, confirmation) of things hoped for (divinely guaranteed), and the evidence of things not seen [the conviction of their reality—faith comprehends as fact what cannot be experienced by the physical senses]."

I'm not a fan of the AMP but I can agree with that statement. It actually more lines up with what I said in my OP.

The way you talked about faith. Both times you say "he is able" then adding "I am going to do it" as if that changed everything. Where does faith come in?

Very simple. Faith to appropriate anything can't rest on just knowing of one's ability . It must ultimately rest on yes knowing the ones ability, and knowing what he says he's willing to do and thirdly does the one keep his word. Is he honorable?

What so ever you desire when you pray believe you receive it you shall have it. So you asked the Father in Jesus name something anything that lines up with the word. You don't hope you receive it you already have it. What does believe you receive it mean? Faith. That "faith" you have is the evidence of things hopped for. Anything in the word of God where it says "GOD said" things like that you don't have to ask for you already have it. I don't hope some day I will be saved. I am saved. I feel nothing I see nothing yet I am saved.

Trust me I know all about Mk 11:24 one of my favorite verses. Yes you see things that line up with the Word. You therefore come boldly to the throne of grace to receive God's mercy. You KNOW it belongs to you because of what the word says. OK so tell me what bold substantial faith do Calvinsits give the sinner to stand on? Oh I'm not saying they wouldn't leave them hoping they'll be one of the lucky ones but that's not faith.

 

[Bobber]

I think that this passage is relevant to what you are talking about:

1 John 5:14-15
14. And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15. And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

So the implication here is that if we ask for something that is not within His will, He does not even hear it. It is not that He says no, He just does not hear the request. Also, if He does hear the request, then we know we have the petitions. This is the confidence (faith, assurance, trust) that we have.

I agree with all this but it's not answering my OP. Let me ask you this if a sinner asked a Calvinist is it God's will to save me? What faith and assurance can the Calvinist give to assure him that it is? If he's not giving him assurance then he's not giving him FAITH.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Calvinism does not instill within the sinner with any substantial confidence or faith that this salvation belongs to the one of whom they speak. They're own way of thinking is maybe they'll be one of the lucky ones or the especially blessed.

I hope you realize that is not, as you claim, what Calvinism teaches, but only your extrapolation of what they teach.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I agree with all this but it's not answering my OP. Let me ask you this if a sinner asked a Calvinist is it God's will to save me? What faith and assurance can the Calvinist give to assure him that it is? If he's not giving him assurance then he's not giving him FAITH.

As @Clare73 said, nobody but God can give anyone salvific faith.

But to answer that sinner's question, we respond with a question: "Do you want to be saved from your sins?" or perhaps something more immediate to the situation. We too, unlike you seem to assume, believe that "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved". Notice in John 6:37 "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out", is preceded by, "All that the father giveth me will come to me."

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I agree with all this but it's not answering my OP. Let me ask you this if a sinner asked a Calvinist is it God's will to save me? What faith and assurance can the Calvinist give to assure him that it is? If he's not giving him assurance then he's not giving him FAITH.

It is interesting because I have never (personally) met a person who had the desire to be saved who did not eventually get saved. God never tells a person (who asks) no. So I think if a person is even interested, that is if they are looking, it is because they are being called. If they are seeing light, it is because it is being shown to them. So my immediate, practical, non-theological response would be "if you care, it is because He is there, and He is trying to get your attention."

I wear Jesus Tee shirts when I go shopping or just walking around town. (I like to think I am being a billboard for the Lord ) . I note the reactions. Some people smile and some even comment that they like the message. Especially the "Don't make me come down there - God" shirt. But more than that I get smirks, eye rolls, chuckles, etc. A lot of people genuinely do not like to be reminded of this message. It is like they are predisposed to resist it.
So I think the question is which comes first, the Chicken or the Egg. If the initiator of your salvation is God, then why you? Did He know who would respond and so only works with those who who will? There is evidence for that in the word.

John 1
12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 17:2
2. As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Acts 2:39
39. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 2:47
47. Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts 13:48
48. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

I suppose some of these are favorites of the Calvinists and it is difficult to argue against them.
But I think the answer to the individual is as above. If you see the light, it is because your eyes have been opened. If you do not see the light, it is because your eyes are closed. Don't worry about the ones whose eyes are closed, that is God's business. Your eyes are open and you see the light, so respond accordingly.