Is There Faith In Calvinist System?

[Hammster]

There are two thoughts about that. Some prefer to believe that everyone is born a goat and then decides to meet God's terms (i.e. accept Jesus into their hear) and become a sheep. Others believe that, as in nature, goats are born goats and cannot be genetically modified to become sheep and thus, those who are born sheep always will remain sheep. It becomes quite dicey when the theology supports a concept of goats becoming sheep, but then later becoming goats again, with the possibility of changing species back and forth at will.

Supporting the second view is Jesus' statement in Matthew 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

I don’t expect to get a response from him. Perhaps I will.

My issues is this. If we are all sheep, then why didn’t He lay down His life for all the sheep? He says clearly that He lays down His life for the sheep. This would rule out universal atonement, at face value.

The other view, that we are goats who become sheep, is even more problematic. Why? Because Jesus never says He lays down His life for the goats. So if it’s only for sheep, which don’t even exist, then there’s nobody to lay His life down for.

I think it is best to see that the Father had given Him sheep, and it’s for those alone who His life is given for.

 

[John Mullally]

I apologize then. Your post indicates that His choice of them being “in Him” from before the foundation of the earth is because they are faithful. Faithful people are those who have done something good.

What other conclusion should I draw?

They are faithful because they are "In Christ". They are not "In Christ" because they are faithful. If someone who thinks they are "In Chirst" is not "faithful", then they should examine themselves.

Your putting those words in my mouth was strategic. If, for examine, you got me off topic and I responded to the words you put in my mouth by saying the Bible says we reap what we sow, then you would steer the conversation towards my supporting "Works" salvation. I have seen all the dirty tricks.

Correction: I did not like my explanation in Post 418 as it sounded redundandant and I want to address your referenceing Ephesians 1:4 in isolation.

If you read Ephesians 1:4 in isolation, I can see that it reads like He chose individuals from the "foundation of the world". But that neglects context - it neglects who the letter was addressed to and it neglects the surrounding verses.

Paul is addressing the book of Ephesians to the "faithful in Christ", In Ephesians 3:14-19, Paul prays for their full understanding of their riches they have In Christ.. If you keep that in mind when you read Ephesians 1:1-14 you will see it as an encouragement to those "In Christ". The choosing and predestining in that passage concerns God's plans from before the foundation of the world for those "In Christ". So when God planned for Jesus to be slain from before the foundation of the world, He also planned the benefits to those who would received the atonement through faith (AKA those who are "In Christ").

 

[Hammster]

They are faithful because they are "In Christ". They are not "In Christ" because they are faithful. If someone who thinks they are "In Chirst" is not "faithful", then they should examine themselves.

Based on this, then, being in Christ is the cause (They are faithful because they are "In Christ") of their faithfulness.

I agree.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Based on this, then, being in Christ is the cause (They are faithful because they are "In Christ") of their faithfulness.

I agree.

That may explain why so many people incorrectly conclude that baptismal grace means that every baptised baby and adult is alleged to be saved. Given that baptism does in fact place one in Christ's body.

 

[Bobber]

My issues is this. If we are all sheep, then why didn’t He lay down His life for all the sheep? He says clearly that He lays down His life for the sheep. This would rule out universal atonement, at face value.

The other view, that we are goats who become sheep, is even more problematic. Why? Because Jesus never says He lays down His life for the goats. So if it’s only for sheep, which don’t even exist, then there’s nobody to lay His life down for.

I think it is best to see that the Father had given Him sheep, and it’s for those alone who His life is given for.

So your position is that whenever the term sheep is used that guarantees they'll be saved and see manifest the salvation of God. Problem though....sheep throughout scripture never meant that.


O God, why hast thou cast us off for ever? why doth thine anger smoke against the sheep of thy pasture? Ps 74:1

This was Israel many times under judgement from God and they were called sheep. Jesus even said,

That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt 8:11

So to say a description of sheep guarantees God's blessing is not looking at all the scriptures but is merely cherry picking. Heres another one,

Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. Jer 23:1

Here it states false pastors and leaders would destroy the sheep.

Mt 23: 13 states,

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Mt 23:13

 

[Bobber]

That may explain why so many people incorrectly conclude that baptismal grace means that every baptised baby and adult alleged to be saved. Given that baptism does in fact place on in Christ's body.

I believe one should be obedient and become water baptized that's a given. But if one MUST have water baptism to place one in the body of Christ then what about the thief on the cross who asked for God's mercy. He was never water baptized and Jesus said this day he'd be with him in paradise.

 

[Hammster]

So your position is that whenever the term sheep is used that guarantees they'll be saved and see manifest the salvation of God. Problem though....sheep throughout scripture never meant that.

Okay. Let’s see.

O God, why hast thou cast us off for ever? why doth thine anger smoke against the sheep of thy pasture? Ps 74:1

If you read the whole Psalm, you’ll see that this isn’t talking about the whole nation losing salvation.

This was Israel many times under judgement from God and they were called sheep. Jesus even said,

That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt 8:11

Nothing about sheep is mentioned.

So to say a description of sheep guarantees God's blessing is not looking at all the scriptures but is merely cherry picking. Heres another one,

Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. Jer 23:1

Right. There’s judgement against those who aren’t faithful in caring for God’s sheep.

Here it states false pastors and leaders would destroy the sheep.

Mt 23: 13 states,

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Mt 23:13

Nothing about sheep is mentioned.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I believe one should be obedient and become water baptized that's a given. But if one MUST have water baptism to place one in the body of Christ then what about the thief on the cross who asked for God's mercy. He was never water baptized and Jesus said this day he'd be with him in paradise.

When baptism is not physically possible, as it was not physically possible for the thief mentioned in your post, then the desire for baptism is accounted to be baptism by God.

 

[baptist4life]

When baptism is not physically possible, as it was not physically possible for the thief mentioned in your post, then the desire for baptism is accounted to be baptism by God.

RC nonsense.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

RC nonsense.

Everyone has an opinion

 

[AVB 2]

In John 3:14-15, Jesus says that His atonement is only effective for those who believe in Him.

No one is born Jesus's Sheep: When Jesus says, “I know My own and My own know Me,” He is referring to a mutual and intimate, interpersonal relationship. “The Lord knows who are His,” (2 Timothy 2:19) and “if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.” (1 Corinthians 8:3). Either this is something that we are born with, or it is something that we grow into. Since no one is born as a believer, it would stand to reason that being one of Christ’s sheep (or follower) is something that results from conversion rather than birth.

We were "chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world..." according to Ephesians 1:4. Chosen by God so that in His timing He will save us. Ecclesiastes 3:1 "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven..." A time to receive Christ? Yes.

You cannot take John 10:15 in isolation. Just because Jesus died for His Sheep, does not mean He did not die for others. If you take Galatians 2:20 in isolation, you can argue that Jesus died only for Paul.

Note that John 10:15 does not say "Jesus died for all, but Jesus died for His sheep. If Christ died for "all" then all will be saved, otherwise God uses double jeopardy on Judgment Day. Christ's death paid the sin penalty for "all" but on Judgment Day God sends the goats in Matthew 25 to Hell to pay the penalty for their sins.

If Jesus did not die for all people, why does Paul say that Jesus is the Savior of all people?

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

The answer is actually quite simple. Christ is the Savior of all Jews and all Gentiles. There is not one savior for Jews and another for Gentiles. Also the Greek word soter (Savior) can mean savior, or deliverer, or preserver. God delivers unsaved mankind from death every day, and He preserves the lives on the unsaved every day also.

 

[John Mullally]

We were "chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world..." according to Ephesians 1:4. Chosen by God so that in His timing He will save us. Ecclesiastes 3:1 "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven..." A time to receive Christ? Yes.

That makes sense if you take half a verse of Ephesians 1:4. When I look at Ephesians 1:1-14 as a whole, I see the following:

1. From verse 1 we see that Paul is addressing the "faithful in Christ". So where ever it says us - he is talking about the "faithful in Christ".
2. The use of phrase "the foundation of the world" is signiificant as per Revelations 13:8, Christ was slain from the "foundation of the world".
3. It was God's plan to bless the "faithful in Christ" from the "foundation of the world", just as much as it was His plan that Christ be slain from the foundation of the world.
4. Paul identifies all the blessings the "faithful in Christ" receive.

Note that John 10:15 does not say "Jesus died for all, but Jesus died for His sheep. If Christ died for "all" then all will be saved, otherwise God uses double jeopardy on Judgment Day. Christ's death paid the sin penalty for "all" but on Judgment Day God sends the goats in Matthew 25 to Hell to pay the penalty for their sins.

1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 2:6 indicate that Jesus died for all men. Again just because Christ died for all men does not mean that all men are saved - as John 3:15 stipulates, one must believe on Him.

The answer is actually quite simple. Christ is the Savior of all Jews and all Gentiles. There is not one savior for Jews and another for Gentiles. Also the Greek word soter (Savior) can mean savior, or deliverer, or preserver. God delivers unsaved mankind from death every day, and He preserves the lives on the unsaved every day also.

There is no disccussion of Jews and Gentiles anywhere around 1 Timothy 4:10, so you are injecting foreign terms into 1 Timothy 4:10.

1 Timothy 4:10 most certainly says that Christ is the Savior of all men - not just believers.

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

 

[rturner76]

I think there is faith in the Calvinist system (though I still don't choose it). They have faith that they are chosen by God above the rest of humanity as they believe they have been chosen even before birth at the foundation of the Earth or even earlier I don't know. I wonder if they believe OT prophets were chosen or unchosen before the arrival of Christ. I haven't fully studied the TULIP system. But if you believe in predestination, I suppose that would apply to the old and new covenant.

 

[Hammster]

I think there is faith in the Calvinist system (though I still don't choose it). They have faith that they are chosen by God above the rest of humanity as they believe they have been chosen even before birth at the foundation of the Earth or even earlier I don't know. I wonder if they believe OT prophets were chosen or unchosen before the arrival of Christ. I haven't fully studied the TULIP system. But if you believe in predestination, I suppose that would apply to the old and new covenant.

Do you believe that God knew you would be saved even before the foundation of the earth?

 

[rturner76]

Do you believe that God knew you would be saved even before the foundation of the earth?

God knows all the outcomes but he gives us free will. We choose hell, God doesn't choose hell for us, or heaven for that matter. Calvinism is one person's interpretation. Calvin didn't have the backup of an established Apostolic church to research his findings and rule on them. It's kind of a solo act for a religion. Do we need Calvin to interpret what Jesus told us so plainly?

2 Peter 3:9 ESV​

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

I know tha the Bible mentions predestination many times but I think it's about having a religious calling, not just being predestined to heaven and hell.

I don't believe that God would predestine people to heaven or hell but he might predestine someone to become a minister and he gives them the tools and strength to do so like Christ.

 

[Hammster]

God knows all the outcomes but he gives us free will. We choose hell, God doesn't choose hell for us, or heaven for that matter. Calvinism is one person's interpretation. Calvin didn't have the backup of an established Apostolic church to research his findings and rule on them. It's kind of a solo act for a religion. Do we need Calvin to interpret what Jesus told us so plainly?

2 Peter 3:9 ESV​

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

I know tha the Bible mentions predestination many times but I think it's about having a religious calling, not just being predestined to heaven and hell.

I don't believe that God would predestine people to heaven or hell but he might predestine someone to become a minister and he gives them the tools and strength to do so like Christ.

Let’s say God knows that your neighbor will never choose to follow Christ. Can anything change that?