Is There Faith In Calvinist System?

[Mark Quayle]

So I think the question is which comes first, the Chicken or the Egg. If the initiator of your salvation is God, then why you? Did He know who would respond and so only works with those who who will? There is evidence for that in the word.

John 1
12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I think it is rather obvious that if God is not the instigator, it is not then by Grace we are saved, but by some half-breed notion of cause, where our integrity rises up to meet God's generosity.

Notice John 1:12 says "received". Not quite the same as "accepted". We are receptacles, coincidentally somewhat synonymous with the Romans 9 "vessels". The Spirit of God has made us his dwelling place.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Calvinism does not instill within the sinner with any substantial confidence or faith that this salvation belongs to the one of whom they speak. They're own way of thinking is maybe they'll be one of the lucky ones or the especially blessed.

This life is not about us, Bobber. Please read below.

"Tis not a doctrine which 'Instills confidence or faith in this salvation," that's the job of the Holy Spirit in the born again, and which can be done by no one else.

Amen that! Yet, the simple reason (logic) behind the notion of God being the cause, from beginning to end, of salvation; and that whatever God has set out to do, he will accomplish; and that he is doing this for HIS sake and for HIS good pleasure (and so is completely satisfied with the work of his hands), means that it is NOT dependent on me to get to Heaven —far outstrips the Arminian logic, that the sinner's prayer must be sincere, and the follow-up must be constant, and that wherever you skid off the road you have to go back to that point and you've wasted time, and on and on and on: EYES ON YOURSELF —Trying to measure up. (What I put in italics here is not a quote, but a representation of some of the Arminian notions I have heard expressed on this site, and have experienced in my younger life as a semi-Arminian.)

EYES ON GOD means we aren't even worrying whether we are elect or not, (unless in times of conviction), but are glorying in his happiness, and glorying even in our own sufferings, in him, and so many other things. Even the times of conviction don't usually produce doubt as to one's election, but a deep pain of sorrow for what we have done to him, and a simple knot-in-the-throat "missing him" in his fellowship. But the joy of depending on him and trusting him to accomplish HIS will, goes beyond anything I would, should or can do. This is not up to me, but I am compelled, none-the-less, not by self-preservation but by the love of Christ.

 

[Bobber]

Where does this notion come from that anyone but the Holy Spirit gives faith?

But the Holy Spirit has give US the empowered message to deliver for the gospel is the power of God. It can't get any more clear than Rom 10 that the preacher is the one delivering this empowered message to al hearers.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rm 10:14,16

We are co-labors with God and what God has told us to say has or creates the faith in people. So how does what Calvinists say actually create FAITH in people. How can it? It seems to me it might create hope that they'll be on of the lucky ones to become saved but when it comes to FAITH where they can feel solidly assured God will receive them....where do we find that?

And man does not, and cannot, give that faith and trust to anyone.

With all due respect you're failing to get men can by delivered the simple gospel message. The message WE, deliver is called the Word of Faith Paul said which WE preach.

All he can do is present the gospel offer and God's word.

Well here's the thing. The gospel message alone tells the sinner what Jesus did on the cross. When the sinner understands God has done that for ALL and they chose to believe God is a good character who will keep his word then that is the equivalent of FAITH. It's not mere hope for the one who is honorable and stands by his word has revealed it's for ALL. They now have something substantial. So if Calvinists message is imparted to the sinner that he's actually WILLING to save the one who is hearing how can they have FAITH?

 

[Bobber]

This life is not about us, Bobber. Please read below.

I've read what you've said and agree with SOME aspects but I don't buy this line that LIFE is not just about us too. God makes it about us by caring for our plight. The one beaten up along side the road in the story of the Good Samaritan, LIFE was about the one who was hurting too and needed help. In fact God says when you bless a hurting one insomuch as you've done it to another you've done it unto me.

.....and that wherever you skid off the road you have to go back to that point and you've wasted time, and on and on and on: EYES ON YOURSELF —Trying to measure up.

But isn't there a ditch on both sides of the road? One can very well deceive themselves by what you say by never applying the word of God and his instructions for they say well God hasn't done that work in me yet. One could embrace a real false sense of security.

EYES ON GOD means we aren't even worrying whether we are elect or not,

Sorry but this goes contrary to the scriptuers. Your no worry message sounds appealing to people's minds but let's change worry to staying sober and alert and to making one's calling and election sure.

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. 2 Cor 13:5

So obviously one DOES have to have thought to examine themselves. I'd suggest it's MOST unwise if we don't.

But the joy of depending on him and trusting him to accomplish HIS will, goes beyond anything I would, should or can do. This is not up to me, but I am compelled, none-the-less, not by self-preservation but by the love of Christ.

Sorry Mark but this all sounds wonderful, relaxing to hear but it still goes contrary to what I quoted above from 2 Cor 13:5,

WE ARE to examine ourselves, WE ARE to prove ourselves we don't just sit back and say God will do it. NO We must do it. Your way of thinking really opens the door up wide to a sense of false security and isn't really a safe message to put out.

 

[Bobber]

"Tis not a doctrine which 'Instills confidence or faith in this salvation,"
that's the job of the Holy Spirit in the born again, and which can be done by no one else.

Sorry Clare but you're way off from what Romans 10 has to say about the matter. It gospel most certain is meant to instill confidence and faith for salvation. How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel peace.

 

[Bobber]

It is interesting because I have never (personally) met a person who had the desire to be saved who did not eventually get saved.

Paul the Apostle was one of them. I've known others too.

God never tells a person (who asks) no.

Well you've just built yourself a doctrine though that cannot be backed by scripture. My position of course is God doesn't tell anyone NO whether they asked him or not, his will is to always save the sinner. And I've seen some Calvinists and Non-Calvinists alike who did have all these good desires and they left the faith. Of course some claim they really probably weren't in the FAITH but they did have sincerity and desire at some points and through many years.

So I think if a person is even interested, that is if they are looking, it is because they are being called. If they are seeing light, it is because it is being shown to them. So my immediate, practical, non-theological response would be "if you care, it is because He is there, and He is trying to get your attention."

No, no. Scripture is full of examples where God cared and was trying to get the attention of people.

All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. Rom 10:21

 

[Bobber]

I hope you realize that is not, as you claim, what Calvinism teaches, but only your extrapolation of what they teach.

Of course they won't say it the way I'm saying it but I think what I've said truly reflects basically what they teach. I admit there are different kind of Calvinists that vary in just exactly what they believe but I've revealed the basic of thinking. If you want to call it an extrapolation I'm fine with that. I'd leave it to readers to decide if what I've said is valid or not.

 

[Clare73]

But the Holy Spirit has give US the empowered message to deliver for the gospel is the power of God. It can't get any more clear than Rom 10 that the preacher is the one delivering this empowered message to al hearers
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?( (Ro 10:14)

"I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes. . ." (Ro 1:16)

Actually, Ro 1:16 is not about power of the gospel to faith, but about the power of the gospel to save,
and the only way it can do that is if it is heard (Ro 10:14), for faith in the message comes by hearing the message (Ro 10:17).

and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rm 10:14,16

We are co-labors with God and what God has told us to say has or creates the faith in people.

Does it create the faith in everyone who hears it? Why not?

So how does what Calvinists say actually create FAITH in people. How can it? It seems to me it might create hope that they'll be on of the lucky ones to become saved but when it comes to FAITH where they can feel solidly assured God will receive them....where do we find that?

We find that in Eph 2:8-9. . .does God reject those who believe in and trust on the forgiveness of their sin (salvation) by the atoning sacrifice of Christ (Ro 3:25)?

Not according to the NT.

With all due respect you're failing to get men can by delivered the simple gospel message. The message WE, deliver is called the Word of Faith Paul said which WE preach.

Only if they believe the gospel message of forgiveness of sin (salvation) by the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25).

Well here's the thing. The gospel message alone tells the sinner what Jesus did on the cross. When the sinner understands God has done that for ALL and they chose to believe God is a good character who will keep his word then that is the equivalent of FAITH. It's not mere hope for the one who is honorable and stands by his word has revealed it's for ALL. They now have something substantial. So if Calvinists message is imparted to the sinner that he's actually WILLING to save the one who is hearing how can they have FAITH?

The gospel is that God does save all those who believe in and trust on the atoning work of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sin (Ro 3:25).

Not too sure what this artificial construct is about, but I am sure it is not from the NT.

 

[Bobber]

Actually, Ro 1:16 is not about power of the gospel to faith, but about the power of the gospel to save,
and the only way it can do that is if it is heard (Ro 10:14), for faith comes by hearing (Ro 10:17).

Not sure how you can even say that.

You just agreed that FAITH comes....COMES by hearing Ro 10:17 .

If it comes by hearing the hearing is taking you to it.

It seems Calvinists just keep resisting the obvious way the words are laid down. Why should you do this?

Does it create the faith in everyone who hears it? Why not?

It would if they allowed it to do so. When individuals resist obvious truth and go the other way then they'll stay in their unbelief and darkness. They have no excuse for doing so. God has made the truth plain.

 

[Mark Quayle]

But the Holy Spirit has give US the empowered message to deliver for the gospel is the power of God. It can't get any more clear than Rom 10 that the preacher is the one delivering this empowered message to al hearers.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rm 10:14,16

We are co-labors with God and what God has told us to say has or creates the faith in people. So how does what Calvinists say actually create FAITH in people. How can it? It seems to me it might create hope that they'll be on of the lucky ones to become saved but when it comes to FAITH where they can feel solidly assured God will receive them....where do we find that?


With all due respect you're failing to get men can by delivered the simple gospel message. The message WE, deliver is called the Word of Faith Paul said which WE preach.


Well here's the thing. The gospel message alone tells the sinner what Jesus did on the cross. When the sinner understands God has done that for ALL and they chose to believe God is a good character who will keep his word then that is the equivalent of FAITH. It's not mere hope for the one who is honorable and stands by his word has revealed it's for ALL. They now have something substantial. So if Calvinists message is imparted to the sinner that he's actually WILLING to save the one who is hearing how can they have FAITH?

I don't mean it as a complement, when I say I've heard more convoluted thinking and worse-sloughed use of terms than yours.

 

[Clare73]

Sorry Clare but you're way off from what Romans 10 has to say about the matter. It gospel most certain is meant to instill confidence and faith for salvation. How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel peace.

The gospel is a two-fold announcement:
1) the wrath (Ro 5:9) and condemnation of God (Ro 5:18) on all mankind, and
2) salvation from that wrath and condemnation by the shed blood of Jesus Christ for those who believe in and trust on his atoning sacrifice (blood, Ro 3:25) for the forgiveness of their sin which condemns them.

Some believe it, some don't.

The preacher who delivers the message does not give anyone faith, nor does the message give faith to all who hear it.

 

[Clare73]

Not sure how you can even say that.

You just agreed that FAITH comes....COMES by hearing Ro 10:17 .

If it comes by hearing the hearing is taking you to it.

Actually that would be you going to it, and not it coming to you.

It seems Calvinists just keep resisting the obvious way the words are laid down. Why should you do this?

In my Bible, the "word laid down" is "come," it is not "go."

Methinks there is commitment to a serious misunderstanding of both Calvin and the gift of faith (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, Ac 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1,
Ro 12:3), which is not given to all.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Of course they won't say it the way I'm saying it but I think what I've said truly reflects basically what they teach. I admit there are different kind of Calvinists that vary in just exactly what they believe but I've revealed the basic of thinking. If you want to call it an extrapolation I'm fine with that. I'd leave it to readers to decide if what I've said is valid or not.

I'm not saying it is "an extrapolation". I'm saying it is YOUR extrapolation. The basis of what they believe, (which you call "the basic of thinking") (and in which longer statement you again slough the word "revealed" —you really should make the effort to be more precise in your writing; it would help you to be better understood), is God's absolute sovereignty.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Not sure how you can even say that.

You just agreed that FAITH comes....COMES by hearing Ro 10:17 .

If it comes by hearing the hearing is taking you to it.

It seems Calvinists just keep resisting the obvious way the words are laid down. Why should you do this?



It would if they allowed it to do so. When individuals resist obvious truth and go the other way then they'll stay in their unbelief and darkness. They have no excuse for doing so. God has made the truth plain.

Yes... it sounds like all you need to be saved is faith, faith that comes by hearing. It actually says nothing about choices or decisions. It says we hear. Being aware puts us into the net. If faith and salvation came by making the right choices and decisions, then the pews should be packed with the wise and the scholars. Quite the opposite. "Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth." Lets not elevate the power of choice and intelligence to the place where it is the factor that results in salvation. Whether you be a king or a pauper, one does not "hear" any better than the other. Nobody can brag saying they made the right choice. Faith does not come by choice, it comes by hearing.
It is just awareness! The proof that you "heard" is in your actions. If you act in accordance with what was spoken, then it generated faith. If you did not act in accordance with what was spoken, then you did not hear. It was the hearing that caused faith, not some choice you made afterward.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The gospel is a two-fold announcement:
1) the wrath (Ro 5:9) and condemnation of God (Ro 5:18) on all mankind, and
2) salvation from that wrath and condemnation by the shed blood of Jesus Christ for those who believe in and trust on his atoning sacrifice (blood, Ro 3:25) for the forgiveness of their sin which condemns them.

Some believe it, some don't.

The preacher who delivers the message does not give anyone faith, nor does the message give faith to all who hear it.

This is so obvious that I can only think that @Bobber realizes he has been caught in a mistake and is trying to double down on it in order to somehow salvage it.

 

[AbbaLove]

I see no connection to 1st Corinthians and the faith an unbeliever uses to trust in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life. To which this now believer may then be given one of the gifts that The Holy Spirit gives.

Do all of you or anyone of you posting believe that an unbeliever would in time (as a born again believer) contend that "the faith an unbeliever uses" was originally God-given? Thereby supporting both so-called Calvinist and Arminianist theoloy (Salvation (Soteriology)?
.
Do any of you beleive that all nine Supernatural Gifts are still operative today "as He wills" (1 Corinthians 12:8-11) ...

11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one (born again Believer) individually as He wills.​

 

[Mark Quayle]

I've read what you've said and agree with SOME aspects but I don't buy this line that LIFE is not just about us too. God makes it about us by caring for our plight. The one beaten up along side the road in the story of the Good Samaritan, LIFE was about the one who was hurting too and needed help. In fact God says when you bless a hurting one insomuch as you've done it to another you've done it unto me.

Of course it is in part about us! After all, God would not have done it if it didn't have our redemption and glorification as its product. My point, which maybe isn't as obvious as I think, in saying this life is not about us, is that that it is about Christ. The focus is Christ —not us.

But isn't there a ditch on both sides of the road? One can very well deceive themselves by what you say by never applying the word of God and his instructions for they say well God hasn't done that work in me yet. One could embrace a real false sense of security.

Of course one can get lazy! Of course one can deceive oneself! One can do that in any configuration of doctrine. There is much we need to be aware of and much to avoid and much to pursue! How does that mean your self-determining configuration is more secure than one where God owns all fact?

Sorry but this goes contrary to the scriptuers. Your no worry message sounds appealing to people's minds but let's change worry to staying sober and alert and to making one's calling and election sure.

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. 2 Cor 13:5

So obviously one DOES have to have thought to examine themselves. I'd suggest it's MOST unwise if we don't.

Haha! Don't worry about that, I worry plenty, if that makes you feel better about it!

Are you even serious?? You think that what I espouse means we should not "examine ourselves" and should not work to "make our calling and election sure"? Are you also of the opinion that Calvinism teaches that everything that is going to happen is "automatic" and that God does not after all use means to accomplish what he does? Read John Owen's Mortification of Sin, and then tell me Calvinism doesn't teach hard effort and believer's work is necessary or important!

Do you really think that exalting God and affirming his immanent work implies that we do nothing??? —What is it about Arminians? I have tried for years to describe this odd point-of-view that (to me, at least) demonstrates a penchant —no, an insistence!— for self-determination and elevation of the human to the point that eternity depends on him to the exclusion of it depending on GOD who made it.

Sorry Mark but this all sounds wonderful, relaxing to hear but it still goes contrary to what I quoted above from 2 Cor 13:5,

WE ARE to examine ourselves, WE ARE to prove ourselves we don't just sit back and say God will do it. NO We must do it. Your way of thinking really opens the door up wide to a sense of false security and isn't really a safe message to put out.

Oh for crying out loud! My security is in Christ. Not in self, like it is for the Arminian. I am not putting out an unsafe, false security, like your Arminian dependence of eternal results on self. THIS IN NO WAY MEANS THAT THE BELIEVER DOES NOT PURSUE, NOR NEED HE PURSUE, CHRIST. But, again, my security is in CHRIST, not in myself, not in my decisions, not in my freewill, not in the value of anything I am, not in the value of anything I do. It is BECAUSE of being in Christ that what I do has any meaning at all!

 

[Mark Quayle]

Do all of you or anyone of you posting believe that an unbeliever would in time (as a born again believer) contend that "the faith an unbeliever uses" was originally God-given? Thereby supporting both so-called Calvinist and Arminianist theoloy (Salvation (Soteriology)?
.
Do any of you beleive that all nine Supernatural Gifts are still operative today "as He wills" (1 Corinthians 12:8-11) ...

11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one (born again Believer) individually as He wills.​

I don't understand the question, as asked. Of course (if it is salvific faith) is was God-given, because it is God-generated!

Salvific faith is the same faith as continuing faith in Christ, and it can be added to/ increased, but its basic nature is altogether powerful, complete, effective and everlasting, being a product of the Spirit of God, and not generated by the individual possessing it. (It is not even possessed by choice or force of will, but 'integrated' within by the Spirit of God within. ( —Such clunky words one must use to get across such a necessarily temporal mode of understanding!)

 

[Bobber]

I don't mean it as a complement, when I say I've heard more convoluted thinking and worse-sloughed use of terms than yours.

Don't fret about it Mark. One thing I don't do is take to heart any put down a Calvinist wants to give me when they're the ones IMO that are either ignorant or willfully insulting the Spirit of Grace. Agreed that sounds strong but I do firmly believe your doctrines are diminishing in the hearts and minds of men the way God would want men to think of his grace so as I said don't worry. I won't take what you say to heart.

 

[Bobber]

Actually that would be you going to it, and not it coming to you.

And Clare I'd say you have no justification for saying that except you're wanting to make Calvinism seem true.

It states Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

There's nothing to say it's US going to it. The preacher preaches and FAITH is imparted. Sorry but it can't get any more clear than that.

In my Bible, the "word laid down" is "come," it is not "go."

Yes FAITH comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So what are you even talking about (in your quote above) in saying it's not coming to you? It seems you're contradicting yourself.